The Patriotic Thread

[Reincarnated Am]

Welcome to the forum Arev Jan

xxx

[phantom]

Barev Hovik:

I am not interested in any discussion regarding the Armenian Genocide, I consider it to be counterproductive and a waste of time. Reality cannot be discussed or debated. As far as I'm concerned, the Armenian Genocide happened, they all know it happened, and the rest is - geopolitics. Rest assured, sooner or later, it will be their turn to mourn.

Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised to see your post about Knaravan, that's the reason why I wanted to make a comment here. Are you connected to the project? I ask this because, I am directly connected to the people involved with the Knaravan project and, as a matter of fact, I was there with them this past summer. I'm not sure if you know this or not, but Knaravan is located in the region of Karvajar (former Kelbajar). In other words, its located in a land that our community representatives within the diaspora, like the Armenian Assembly, would like us to give back to the Azeri animals. I say no way will they force us to give back even a square centimeter of our lands, enough is enough! And I thank God that a nationalist government is in power within Yerevan today. I'll also have you know that it is an ARF effiliated group that founded the Knaravan village as well as the Yerkir organization.

I want to address some of the comments you made as a prerequisite to the posted links. Most of my social dealing are with Hayastantsis, I travel to Yerevan allot, and many of my close friends here in NYC are from there as well. I don't know who you were referring to with your comments, but I do not know of any patriotic Hayastansti that makes such claims. In general, Armenian nationalists within Yerevan are very happy to have a large diaspora behind them. For obvious reasons, allot of them even want us to have more say in their politics. But, of course, they also have complaints as well, its natural.

Nonetheless, as a diasporan Armenian, I have severe complaints towards the diaspora, some of which you were trying to refute, incidentally. Putting aside the few Armenian organizations and individuals who have a positive impact upon our homeland like UAF, AGBU and ANC, we in America do more to waste and harm our homeland than any other Armenian community in the world. For an example take a close look at the so-called Armenian representatives of TARC. Around Armenian patriotic circles within our homeland and without, TARC is a four letter word. TARC, and everything it represents, is synonymous to treason. TARC would have utterly destroyed our fledgling homeland had it allowed to be forced upon us.

In reality, the financial capability of the American Armenian diaspora is a potential danger to our homeland. I say its a potential danger because, the implimentation of our "resources" here, if not conducted properly, will place the Armenian nation at great risk. An example: there are the many NGO within Yerevan, Armenian and non-Armenian, with doubious agendas. The government is aware of the dangers these NGOs represent, yet they realize that NGOs also bring much needed money and emplyment into the country. These NGOs are staffed by Armenian Americans and non-Armenians.

As typical Americans, many American Armenians who go to Yerevan "to make a difference," think they know everything, when more often than not they are are clueless. More often than not, they try to impose their foreign ideologies - "secularism, multiculturalism, liberalism" - upon a native people who flatly reject it. What's more, they are very self-righteous, self-centered and concern more with the plight of others than with the plight of their own people. As a matter of fact, I looked around here and noticed that you as well are more concerned about "politically correct" behavior than protecting your own compatriots.

The irony, if I can call it that, in your above comments regarding this matter, would be fully revealed when you speak to the people involved with the "Knaravan" and "Yerkir" projects. They are mixed bunch of Armenian natives, Artsakhtsis and Lebanese Armenians and they are all ARFers, if that interests you. You would also be interested to know that they express total disgust towards the liberal mentalities we import from the Armerican diaspora, and they are extremely opposed to any relations with Turks and/or Azeris, another Amerikahai blunder. Incidentally, they also organize some "projects" in Javakhk and our occupied lands in western Armenia, albeit covert.

Hovik, when you realize that there is over a million of us here in America now, and that only a handful are actually impacting Armenia is a positive way, then our diasporan situation, in reality, does not look too bright after all. In my opnion, patriotic Armenians need to think about repatriation, there is no other salvation for our existence. In my opinion, there is no point in preserving a diaspora when we all know that the diaspora is headed to an eventual dead end. If an Armenian thinks he/she can maintain a diaspora indefinitely, they are sadly mistaken. Have no doubt, within a few generations, our children will be effectively assimilated into the multicultural melting pot of this land.

Anyway, I said my piece. Overall, you folks here are doing a good job.

Bari or.

Knaravan seems like a great project, and your post was very interesting. I have some questions. I understand Armenia's reasons for not wanting to interact with Turks or Azeris. But we share borders with those countries. Shouldn't we at least have hope that some day we will be able to cooperate with them and live peasefully and conduct prosperous trade with them?

My second question: is it prudent to put all of your eggs in one basket? Having a healthy and prosperous diaspora, in my view, has always been and will always be one of our greatest strengths. The Armenian people have had a diaspora for as long as there have been Armenian people. If we didn't have a diaspora when the Genocide happened, we might not exist today. And if we didn't have a diaspora when Armenia came out of the post-soviet dilemma, again we might not have an Armenia today. So, isn't it better for our long-term survival that we have Armenians living within an strengthening the Armenian geographic nation, while also having a diaspora that strengthens our nation of people?

[imported_Arev]

Very well said, Thank you for all the good work you people do for our people and our Hayrenik. Some members here use ”Anti Semite” or “Holocaust Denier” right and left the minute you mention who’s really harming Armenia and Armenians in general, I hope they won’t label you as one.

Bari or

Shnorhakalutyun @nker:

Why would any 'Armenian' object to what I wrote? And what does "anti-Semitism" and the "holocaust" have to do with us Armenians? The Jews have their powerful nuclear armed nation, they don't need my protection, especially since they are directly helping Azerbaijan. I merely expressed my concerns and my sentiments towards our homeland, nothing else.

But I do understand what you are attempting to imply. I have looked around here and I'm not really impressed. The overall ethical and ideological rhetoric expressed here is quite shallow and very indicative of a weak and dying diaspora. As I said, I'm not interested in debating issues concerning the Armenian Genocide - you can 'not' debate reality, such debates only serve to undermine reality.

As a matter of fact, I am tired of discussions regarding the Armenian Genocide, we are creating a whole new generation of disturbed Armenians who constantly feel weak and victimized. Trust me, many of those men who fought and died in Artsakh did so to get revenge, Artsakhtsis do not debate anything with Turks. Perhaps, we in the diaspora should learn somethings from them. Its simple: The historic crime against our people will never be forgotten, as long as we 'teach' our children who their enemies are. And the criminals responsible, Turks and others, shall be brought to justice, sooner or later one way or another.

I was asked by Yerkir representatives to go on a trip with them into western Armenia, I refused to go out of ideological and ethical conviction. As long as the enemy occupies our lands, I will not feel at ease upon that soil. Perhaps I was foolish not to go, I don't know. However, I know one thing for sure, western Armenia needs to be firmly imprinted within our inner consciousness. But, right now, we have more pressing concerns within Artsakh and Javakhk. Thus, western Armenia will have to wait for the future. However, we must keep its sacred fire burning within us until that day. You and I many not see it, but I pray to our Lord and Savior that our children get to raise our tricolors upon mount Ararat, as well as Nemrut and Sipan.

A couple of days ago a friend of mine who is (or was) a memeber here asked me to come in and look around. After a quick look, I really did not want to get involved in foolish arguments that were taking place. However, I decided to make a comment here because of the post featuring Knaravan and Yerkir. Seeing it brought back very fond memories of my trip there last summer. As a matter of fact, the video presentation featured within the Knaravan website was in my back-pack when I left Yerevan.

Gisher Bari @nker

[imported_Arev]

I understand Armenia's reasons for not wanting to interact with Turks or Azeris. But we share borders with those countries. Shouldn't we at least have hope that some day we will be able to cooperate with them and live peasefully and conduct prosperous trade with them?

Barev @nker:

You first need to realize that we in the diaspora live in a separate reality, Yerevantsis live in a separate reality and Artsakhtsis live in a separate reality. The ultra-nationalists within Armenia, those who want nothing to do with anything Turkish, are the veterans of Artsakh and ARFers. The Artsakh veterans are essentially the backbone of our nation today and they are very influential in politics.

These people claim that a prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of Turkey - because we Armenians want lands and reparations. I agree with them, no self-respecting Turk is going to give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it to us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks lining up. I'm sure you know what I mean.

However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists in Armenia have is the huge economic, demographic and military size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is their biggest long term fear, and I 'fully' understand them.

I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and the Armenian Republic has demands, although for diplomatic reasons they will not discuss it. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefit in having open borders with Turkey. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relation with Iran, Russia and the EU. At least there you know that your existence is actually within their national interests.

It is very troubling that we Armenians simply forgot that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia with a mechanized army numbering fifth thousand men in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in modern times. You know, the modern civilized Turk. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus command of the Russian Armey, Yerevan today would have been an occupied Armenian city as well. Some of you folk here in your manicured neighborhoods are living in lala land. The Caucasus is a harsh environment and, rest assured, its going to get a lot worst before it gets any better- if it get better.

My second question: is it prudent to put all of your eggs in one basket? Having a healthy and prosperous diaspora, in my view, has always been and will always be one of our greatest strengths.

I fully agree with you, as long as the diaspora survives it can render good support to the homeland.

The Armenian people have had a diaspora for as long as there have been Armenian people.

No, my friend, that is a dangerous belief you have there. We have not had a "long" diaspora as you put it. The first true diasporas were created right after the Turkic invasions of the eleventh century. Thereafter, we have had many diasporas but they have all but disappeared. The only relatively old diaspora we have has been the one in Isfahan Iran. It has survived due to its close proximity to Armenia and due to its isolation form surrounding Muslims. However, their numbers are negligible as well and they keep dwindling.

Moreover, the diaspora you see in the Middle East today is a result of the Armenian genocide, therefore its not old. And if you take a close look, the Armenian Diaspora within the Middle East is all but dead as well. The Armenian Diaspora in Istanbul is so sad that I hate discussing it. According to their Patriarch, the intermarriage rate between Armenians and Turks in Istanbul is well over fifty percent. That alone should speak volumes.

I have to say however that 'numbers' of Armenians do not concern me. I don't care about people who have Armenian names, I care about people who feel connected to their homeland and are proud of their ancient culture. Also consider the fact that we have never been able to maintain a diaspora here in the Christian west. All our western diasporas of the middle ages have completely disappeared. The American Armenian diaspora would have done so as well, had it not been for massive immigration from Armenia and the Middle East during the past thirty years.

If we didn't have a diaspora when the Genocide happened, we might not exist today. And if we didn't have a diaspora when Armenia came out of the post-soviet dilemma, again we might not have an Armenia today. So, isn't it better for our long-term survival that we have Armenians living within an strengthening the Armenian geographic nation, while also having a diaspora that strengthens our nation of people?

At the time of the genocide the Armenian diaspora was tiny and could not have an impact upon anything. The rest of your comments, I agree with. However, lets stop wasting our funds within the Diaspora and let's build more Knaravans on our liberated lands.

Again:

The diaspora needs to exist for the sole purpose of helping the homeland. However, lets not fool ourselves, the diaspora is temporary. Thus, our national existence within the diaspora is temporary. Regardless of what I, as an individual, do or say - there shall remain a diaspora. However, it is up to me, as a father and a child of the Armenian nation, to pave the route for my children - towards our homeland. For our homeland is where our ancestors fought and died, so that we can live.

Gisher Bari

[Hovik]

Barev Hovik:

I am not interested in any discussion regarding the Armenian Genocide, I consider it to be counterproductive and a waste of time. Reality cannot be discussed or debated. As far as I'm concerned, the Armenian Genocide happened, they all know it happened, and the rest is - geopolitics. Rest assured, sooner or later, it will be their turn to mourn.

Arev jan, welcome to the forum. I am glad to see you have found your peace.

Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised to see your post about Knaravan, that's the reason why I wanted to make a comment here. Are you connected to the project? I ask this because, I am directly connected to the people involved with the Knaravan project and, as a matter of fact, I was there with them this past summer. I'm not sure if you know this or not, but Knaravan is located in the region of Karvajar (former Kelbajar). In other words, its located in a land that our community representatives within the diaspora, like the Armenian Assembly, would like us to give back to the Azeri animals. I say no way will they force us to give back even a square centimeter of our lands, enough is enough! And I thank God that a nationalist government is in power within Yerevan today. I'll also have you know that it is an ARF effiliated group that founded the Knaravan village as well as the Yerkir organization.

Thank you for your kind words. Unfortunately I am not connected with the project. I spend a lot of time working with organizations (especially with younger organizations run by younger people) that benefit Armenia. I enjoy reading about organizations like that which administers the Knaravan project, and keeping up to date with their accomplishments. I have combed the Knaravan website from front to back so I have a general background on it, what an amazing project. You are so lucky to have participated in it and visited the site.

On the other hand, it is my personal opinion that most if not all of the political parties are corrupt and morally bankrupt. I am independent in that I don't fully trust, support, or ally myself with Dashnaks or Hnchaks. I do however, share many of your feelings about nationalism, and our right to retain land in Artsakh.

I want to address some of the comments you made as a prerequisite to the posted links. Most of my social dealing are with Hayastantsis, I travel to Yerevan allot, and many of my close friends here in NYC are from there as well. I don't know who you were referring to with your comments, but I do not know of any patriotic Hayastansti that makes such claims.

Arev jan,
I think you misunderstood me. My post was addressing Turks who assert that the Diaspora only complains about Genocide Genocide Genocide while people in Armenia suffer. My post was to highlight that this is no where near reality. Many members of the Diaspora do great things for the country, and to improve the lives of the people. My post was directed at Turks who don't know about he programs the Diaspora offers Armenia. I am sorry you misunderstood.

In general, Armenian nationalists within Yerevan are very happy to have a large diaspora behind them. For obvious reasons, a lot of them even want us to have more say in their politics. But, of course, they also have complaints as well, its natural.

I know what you mean. I have been to Armenia twice in as many years, the last visit of which was last year. Half of my family is there, living in Yerevan and outlying villages. I agree with you completely here.

Nonetheless, as a diasporan Armenian, I have severe complaints towards the diaspora, some of which you were trying to refute, incidentally. Putting aside the few Armenian organizations and individuals who have a positive impact upon our homeland like UAF, AGBU and ANC, we in America do more to waste and harm our homeland than any other Armenian community in the world.

Arev, If you are saying the Diaspora has much more to do as communities and individuals, I agree entirely.

For an example take a close look at the so-called Armenian representatives of TARC. Around Armenian patriotic circles within our homeland and without, TARC is a four letter word. TARC, and everything it represents, is synonymous to treason. TARC would have utterly destroyed our fledgling homeland had it allowed to be forced upon us.

I appreciate your opinion

In reality, the financial capability of the American Armenian diaspora is a potential danger to our homeland. I say its a potential danger because, the implimentation of our "resources" here, if not conducted properly, will place the Armenian nation at great risk. An example: there are the many NGO within Yerevan, Armenian and non-Armenian, with doubious agendas. The government is aware of the dangers these NGOs represent, yet they realize that NGOs also bring much needed money and emplyment into the country. These NGOs are staffed by Armenian Americans and non-Armenians.

I am very interested in hearing what you have to say here. What do you think is the solution to this problem? And what are the advantages or disadvantages (if any) of the solution?

As typical Americans, many American Armenians who go to Yerevan "to make a difference," think they know everything, when more often than not they are are clueless. More often than not, they try to impose their foreign ideologies - "secularism, multiculturalism, liberalism" - upon a native people who flatly reject it. What's more, they are very self-righteous, self-centered and concern more with the plight of others than with the plight of their own people. As a matter of fact, I looked around here and noticed that you as well are more concerned about "politically correct" behavior than protecting your own compatriots.

In your opinion, what "others" are the concerned with typically?
What "politically correct" demands are you referring to? which of our "own compatriots" are we "not protecting"?

The irony, if I can call it that, in your above comments regarding this matter, would be fully revealed when you speak to the people involved with the "Knaravan" and "Yerkir" projects. They are mixed bunch of Armenian natives, Artsakhtsis and Lebanese Armenians and they are all ARFers, if that interests you. You would also be interested to know that they express total disgust towards the liberal mentalities we import from the Armerican diaspora, and they are extremely opposed to any relations with Turks and/or Azeris, another Amerikahai blunder. Incidentally, they also organize some "projects" in Javakhk and our occupied lands in western Armenia, albeit covert.

Ok, what is the irony here? Maybe i'm missing something, but I don't understand why it's so strange that I honor the people who make these sacrifices and dedicate themselves to help others. I simply don't get involved so deeply in the politics as others...

Hovik, when you realize that there is over a million of us here in America now, and that only a handful are actually impacting Armenia is a positive way, then our diasporan situation, in reality, does not look too bright after all.

Ok, Arev jan,
I wasn't saying our diasporan situation "is so bright!" I was saying that there ARE some Armenians in the Diaspora who do something positive in the country, refuting some claims by Turks that the Diaspora doesn't care at all about Armenia, that they live their cushy lives while Armenians rot. Where was I wrong in this?

In my opnion, patriotic Armenians need to think about repatriation, there is no other salvation for our existence. In my opinion, there is no point in preserving a diaspora when we all know that the diaspora is headed to an eventual dead end. If an Armenian thinks he/she can maintain a diaspora indefinitely, they are sadly mistaken. Have no doubt, within a few generations, our children will be effectively assimilated into the multicultural melting pot of this land.

Anyway, I said my piece. Overall, you folks here are doing a good job.

Bari or.

I agree entirely. I don't plan to remain a diasporan forever, I plan to relocate to Armenia and take Armenian citizenship within the next 7 years. I don't agree that a diaspora is eternal. Thank you for saying your piece, it was interesting and gave a unique perspective on these things. I would be interested to hear more about your visit to Knaravan.

Hovik

[Kharpert]

Arev, I very much appreciate and agree with your comments and analysis, but I'd like to ask your opinion on something:

When, do you think, will there be a salient opportunity for Armenians to resettle in their ancestral homes?

[imported_Arev]

Kharpert, you are in luck my young friend. I had written and posted the following essay within another Armenian forum not to long ago. Its addresses your fundamentally important question quite directly.

Our Occupied Lands in Western Armenia:

The question regarding the lands you raised is a very fluid one. It can not be answered easily. No one but God knows when that day will come when we will be able to send our victorious Armenian army units into Van. It may or may not happen in our life times. But, we need to be vigilant and ready for that glorious day.

Our collective attitude as a nation is crucial here. If we are not ready or willing to take our lands back - than there is 'no' chance. However, If we are ready and work towards that particular goal - then there 'is' a chance, a good chance I might add. Therefore, its up to us as a people to decide what we want for our future. Sadly, many Armenians today have already given up, and that is the main threat we face, not Turks.

The enemy is us.

The last thing I want is for us to be asleep at the wheel when that opportunity arrives. Most Armenians, including my beloved ARF, were sleeping at the wheel or scared into inaction during the years leading up to 1915. If our people had be able to unite against the common threat back then, we would have been able to carve a huge amount of our historic lands and there would not have been an Armenian Genocide to lament over. The sad reality is that only a small group of Armenians fought the Turks and Kurds at the time. The majority of the Armenian population either went to their deaths like sheep, fled to foreign lands or became Turks and Kurds. Of course, the Bolshevik revolution and the chaos in Europe did not help our situation either.

But that's - Hayu baxd@ - for you again. However, that was then, this is now, let's look ahead.

Anyway, getting our lands back is based upon various geopolitical and sociological factors. We need to work on these various factors as a nation, we need to be patient, and we need to hope for the best. I firmly believe we will re-gain our lands, I just don't know when the time will be. That is why I say "no relations with Turks what-so-ever." Yes, of course we need to play politics and give lip service to the superpowers, but our national interests must burn bright within us. I will now address the potential arguments regarding the 'technical' aspects of liberating our lands:

How will we defend the land once we liberate it?

Those lands can easily be protect and defended by a well armed, well trained modern military force. The land in question is rugged and alpine, once you get it and dig in, you are in total control - look at Artsakh. Also, if you do have a nuclear bomb behind you, you are virtually untouchable - look at North Korea, Pakistan and very soon, Iran. Besides, I only envision getting 'in' when the Turkish nation is in chaos and unable to defend its-self. What's more, if the time is right, Russia and/or Iran may want to participate. In other words, when 'they' are down, you stomp on their heads as fast as you can and as hard as you can and you don't stop until you accomplish your agenda.

Don't forget, politics is dirty, we also need to dirty ourselves once in a while. We need to get rid of our genocide derived complexes. We need to get rid our our diaspora mentalities. Unfortunately, we Armenians think small. When one thinks small, one accomplishes small. With this respect, I have a lot more hope in Hayastantis than with diasporans. Hayastantsis don't have diaspora derived mental hang ups, as we saw in Artsakh. Moreover, they are free thinkers, shrewd, rash and they are cut-throat, these work well in politics and military matters. As a result, the foreign policy formulations of Yerevan today is excellent, they are well balanced, nationalistic and clever. That is also why I love the ARF: Regardless of your sentiments are towards them, I know them to be shrewd, well organized, well disciplined and aggressive. And today, they are the only ones in the diaspora that preserves our nationalistic pride and agenda. Besides wich, all nations need their barking dogs.

What about the Kurds?

I am hopeful that the Kurds will have a nation they may want to move to in norther Iraq or somewhere south of Van. Those who decide to remain in our lands will simply become Armenian citizens, just as they are Turkish citizens now. If they decide to give us a hard time, then they simply have to pack and leave, its no big deal. In times of geo-political chaos, these things occur naturally. Again, look at how easy it was for a our rag-tag paramilitary units to clean up Artsakh and surrounding areas. The Kurds are a sad, disorganized, disunited bunch, I would even say primitive, so don't worry much about them as a military factor.

What is so important about our lands?

The lands we want hold great sentimental and cultural value. That is where our genealogy began, it is where human civilization began, its where our martyred ancestors lie in unmarked graves, its where our ancient cities remain. More importantly, the land in question has vast economic, geo-strategic and political value. The region is rich in natural resources and agricultural potential. I envision the Republic of Armenia growing in population. Therefore, we will eventually need 'our' lands back. Every Armenian wants to see a prosperous Armenia, right? Well, a prosperous Armenia will need to expand eventually. So, what better land than 'ours' to expand into? What's more, the only way we Armenians can get respect from the international community is by creating a large powerful nation. That way, you set conditons in politics. As long as we remain small, dependent and vulnerable, they will all spit on us - its quite natural, especially in the Caucasus.

The prospects of whether or not we will be able to get our lands back is based upon the following factors. We are making good progress in many areas, but there is a lot of work left to be done:

The out-come of the Artsakh issue

The strength of the Armenian economy

The strength of the Armenian military

The strength and ideological conviction of the Armenian diaspora

Whether or not Armenia develops and nuclear bomb

Superpower interests within the region

Armenian Iranians relations

Armenian Russian relations

Armenian Kurdish relations

Armenian Arab relations

Armenian EU relations

Turkey's internal problems, social and economic

Turkey's external problems, political and military

Unexpected "natural" disasters

The above are the factors that would potentially dictate whether or not we will be able to make a move and liberate our lands. Its anything but simple, but as I said earlier: If we as a nation keep this within our sights there 'is' a chance, if we don't then there is 'no' chance. Thus, the pivotal factor is played by nobody but us.

Our people can be our worst obstacle, or our catalyst to a greater future.

[1.5 million]

Arev - let us know when you graduate the 5th grade - then we can talk.

[1.5 million]

Excuse me???

Is that directed at me?

no - just at all the other barking dogs...

[phantom]

Barev @nker:

You first need to realize that we in the diaspora live in a separate reality, Yerevantsis live in a separate reality and Artsakhtsis live in a separate reality. The ultra-nationalists within Armenia, those who want nothing to do with anything Turkish, are the veterans of Artsakh and ARFers. The Artsakh veterans are essentially the backbone of our nation today and they are very influential in politics.

These people claim that a prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of Turkey - because we Armenians want lands and reparations. I agree with them, no self-respecting Turk is going to give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it to us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks lining up. I'm sure you know what I mean.

However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists in Armenia have is the huge economic, demographic and military size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is their biggest long term fear, and I 'fully' understand them.

I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and the Armenian Republic has demands, although for diplomatic reasons they will not discuss it. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefit in having open borders with Turkey. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relation with Iran, Russia and the EU. At least there you know that your existence is actually within their national interests.

It is very troubling that we Armenians simply forgot that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia with a mechanized army numbering fifth thousand men in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in modern times. You know, the modern civilized Turk. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus command of the Russian Armey, Yerevan today would have been an occupied Armenian city as well. Some of you folk here in your manicured neighborhoods are living in lala land. The Caucasus is a harsh environment and, rest assured, its going to get a lot worst before it gets any better- if it get better.



I fully agree with you, as long as the diaspora survives it can render good support to the homeland.



No, my friend, that is a dangerous belief you have there. We have not had a "long" diaspora as you put it. The first true diasporas were created right after the Turkic invasions of the eleventh century. Thereafter, we have had many diasporas but they have all but disappeared. The only relatively old diaspora we have has been the one in Isfahan Iran. It has survived due to its close proximity to Armenia and due to its isolation form surrounding Muslims. However, their numbers are negligible as well and they keep dwindling.

Moreover, the diaspora you see in the Middle East today is a result of the Armenian genocide, therefore its not old. And if you take a close look, the Armenian Diaspora within the Middle East is all but dead as well. The Armenian Diaspora in Istanbul is so sad that I hate discussing it. According to their Patriarch, the intermarriage rate between Armenians and Turks in Istanbul is well over fifty percent. That alone should speak volumes.

I have to say however that 'numbers' of Armenians do not concern me. I don't care about people who have Armenian names, I care about people who feel connected to their homeland and are proud of their ancient culture. Also consider the fact that we have never been able to maintain a diaspora here in the Christian west. All our western diasporas of the middle ages have completely disappeared. The American Armenian diaspora would have done so as well, had it not been for massive immigration from Armenia and the Middle East during the past thirty years.



At the time of the genocide the Armenian diaspora was tiny and could not have an impact upon anything. The rest of your comments, I agree with. However, lets stop wasting our funds within the Diaspora and let's build more Knaravans on our liberated lands.

Again:

The diaspora needs to exist for the sole purpose of helping the homeland. However, lets not fool ourselves, the diaspora is temporary. Thus, our national existence within the diaspora is temporary. Regardless of what I, as an individual, do or say - there shall remain a diaspora. However, it is up to me, as a father and a child of the Armenian nation, to pave the route for my children - towards our homeland. For our homeland is where our ancestors fought and died, so that we can live.

Gisher Bari

Arev, you make some really thought-provoking points. One, in particular, is something that I never considered before. The idea that engaging in trade with Turkey could result in Armenia's dependence on Turkey. That is something I never thought about. I suppose, though, that this could be controlled if we also have good trade relations with Georgia, Russia, Iran, Iraq, and Europe, so that we are not entirely dependent on Turkey.

Regarding Iran, Europe, and Russia. What is your opinion on why they have an interest in our continued existence?

Regarding our centuries old diaspora: We claim that we have had a presence in Jerusalem since the 1st century AD. I read somewhere that Armenians arrived in Italy in the 6th century. I've read of European monks from the 4th to 9th centuries who were Armenian, like the patron saint of necks or throats, I can't remember which, in Spain. If I remember his name, I'll post it. Anyway, it's my understanding that we have been a traveling band of merchants for quite a while. So we must have had a diaspora even before the Turkish hordes.