The Patriotic Thread

[1.5 million]

Arev - I see that you have edited/removed some of your posts - with the specific language I found objectionable - still you are implying in your posts a military solution and the concept that there can be no peace with the Turks. While I understand all Armenian's justified frustration in this regard I do not think that this or the concept of any kind of military solution in regards to the historic lands of Western Armenia will ever be a sane or righteous solution. Obviously we can never lose the memory of the Genocide and our treatment by the Turks - however when one tals of "punishment" and such - we also have to be aware that there is a difference between those who commited those crimes and the Turks of today - though as well I understand that the Turkish government (Republic of Turkey) is not our friend and that changing this situation is not an easy prospect - and I likewise - as nearly all Armenians - I do not feel that the TARC process was the correct approach - but I do believe that establishing communications/contacts and eventual mutual trust between Turks and Armenians is necesssary for the future of our people. Any worries about a potential dependence on Turkey - while something to consider - is way down on the list at this point. Likewise I feel that we must accept that a substansial portion of our population will contiune to exist in the Diaspora - and all that this entails - and that many Armenians will assimilate - and that it is nothing new for the majority of Armenians to be more interested in personal/family things then of the whole - it is just the way we are. More later perhaps....

[Joseph]

Arev - I see that you have edited/removed some of your posts - with the specific language I found objectionable - still you are implying in your posts a military solution and the concept that there can be no peace with the Turks. While I understand all Armenian's justified frustration in this regard I do not think that this or the concept of any kind of military solution in regards to the historic lands of Western Armenia will ever be a sane or righteous solution. Obviously we can never lose the memory of the Genocide and our treatment by the Turks - however when one tals of "punishment" and such - we also have to be aware that there is a difference between those who commited those crimes and the Turks of today - though as well I understand that the Turkish government (Republic of Turkey) is not our friend and that changing this situation is not an easy prospect - and I likewise - as nearly all Armenians - I do not feel that the TARC process was the correct approach - but I do believe that establishing communications/contacts and eventual mutual trust between Turks and Armenians is necesssary for the future of our people. Any worries about a potential dependence on Turkey - while something to consider - is way down on the list at this point. Likewise I feel that we must accept that a substansial portion of our population will contiune to exist in the Diaspora - and all that this entails - and that many Armenians will assimilate - and that it is nothing new for the majority of Armenians to be more interested in personal/family things then of the whole - it is just the way we are. More later perhaps....

Agree.

[imported_Arev]

Arev, you make some really thought-provoking points. One, in particular, is something that I never considered before. The idea that engaging in trade with Turkey could result in Armenia's dependence on Turkey. That is something I never thought about. I suppose, though, that this could be controlled if we also have good trade relations with Georgia, Russia, Iran, Iraq, and Europe, so that we are not entirely dependent on Turkey.

The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Georgian border is short, risky, unstable and under-developed. The Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Economically Turks can overwhelm us. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your ass, and your national interests, goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in all this. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

Regarding Iran, Europe, and Russia. What is your opinion on why they have an interest in our continued existence?

Its simple, none of them want to see the growth of Turkish power within the region in question. The pan-Turkic danger is a real issue for Russians and Iranians and to a lesser extent Europeans. Believe it or not, tiny fledgling Armenia is the greatest obstacle to Turkish and American exploitation of the region today. And within this context, Zangezur plays the most prominent part, for that narrow strip of land that essentially connects Yerevan to Iran it the most strategic piece of territory that Armenia controls today. Zangezur allows the development of a viable Russian, Armenian, Iranian allience - essentially a north-south axis against an east-west axis.

And we can all thank the Great Garegin Njhdeh for securing that land for us by fighting off Turks and Bolsheviks alike. The Bolshviks wanted to give Zangezur to the Azeris, in addition to Artsakh and Nakhijevan. Garegin with a handful of warriors fought them into a compromise. That is why we have Zangezur today. The infamous Paul Goble plan was essentially a way to trick Armenians into compromising the strategic value of Zangerzur. Just imagine Armenia today without Zangezur.

In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long term interest of Turkey. And that is why we can't have any real close relations with Turks. Simply put, a prosperous Armenia is not in their long term interest. As far as Americans are concerned, they are there today, and gone tomorrow - when their "interests" disappear. Obviously, we cant trust Washington.

Regarding our centuries old diaspora: We claim that we have had a presence in Jerusalem since the 1st century AD. I read somewhere that Armenians arrived in Italy in the 6th century. I've read of European monks from the 4th to 9th centuries who were Armenian, like the patron saint of necks or throats, I can't remember which, in Spain. If I remember his name, I'll post it. Anyway, it's my understanding that we have been a traveling band of merchants for quite a while. So we must have had a diaspora even before the Turkish hordes.

No friend, sending clergy or merchants to various countries does not qualify as having a Diaspora. The first true Armenian Diaspora began soon after the Turkic-Seljuk invasions. Besides, none of the diaspora Armenians of the middle ages have survived to modern times. Therefore, this conversation is pointless if you are trying to claim that there is nothing wrong with an Armenian Diaspora since we have always had one. Its simply not true and that particular mindset is dangerous for our survival as a nation. Obviously, most Diasporan Armenians will not be able to, or willing to, repatriate, that is the real tragedy of our current plight. However, those who have the financial means, the ideological conviction and the will - need to be thinking about repatriation.

[Reincarnated Am]

Armenian Kings in Jardins de Lumiere (Paris)

xxx

[Hovik]

Arev, I very much appreciate and agree with your comments and analysis, but I'd like to ask your opinion on something:

When, do you think, will there be a salient opportunity for Armenians to resettle in their ancestral homes?

I just wanted to weigh in on this topic. I've given it some serious thought. I've considered that both Eastern and Western Armenia have been occupied by foreign forces for centuries until the soviet period (save a short-lived independence in the early 20th century) when it was essentially again occupied by a foreign force (the soviet union). One could assert that the last decade-or-so of independence is the first in centuries. It's only a matter of time before another foriegn force will attempt to occupy mer hayrenik, and god only knows how much more occupation the country can take before it crumbles. The best thing we can do to prevent that is to revitalize mer hayrenik, to relocate to mer hayrenik and to defend mer hayrenik...
So to answer your question, the time is NOW...

If your ancestral home is in Western (occupied) Armenia, don't think this doesn't include you. Relocate to your home and help to establish Armenian re-settlements there. These settlements will be instrumental in the re-establishment of the Armenian State there...

[maral_m79]

I just wanted to weigh in on this topic. I've given it some serious thought. I've considered that both Eastern and Western Armenia have been occupied by foreign forces for centuries until the soviet period (save a short-lived independence in the early 20th century) when it was essentially again occupied by a foreign force (the soviet union). One could assert that the last decade-or-so of independence is the first in centuries. It's only a matter of time before another foriegn force will attempt to occupy mer hayrenik, and god only knows how much more occupation the country can take before it crumbles. The best thing we can do to prevent that is to revitalize mer hayrenik, to relocate to mer hayrenik and to defend mer hayrenik...
So to answer your question, the time is NOW...

If your ancestral home is in Western (occupied) Armenia, don't think this doesn't include you. Relocate to your home and help to establish Armenian re-settlements there. These settlements will be instrumental in the re-establishment of the Armenian State there...

We all would love to do that Hovik .... but NO .. we will not buy our houses from the thiefs... We will only give them money to enforce their propaganda machine !

What you have suggested can be the best possible option if Turkey became more democratic ... but I think if we be a little more patient... the sick man of Europ may collapse again ! Who knows...

Plus, we don't know the language, we will need to move in groups to force them to accept us, and make our own comunity, our own schools, our own churches .... etc. but how can we trust Turkish governmnt once more !!
Last time we did that .... See where are we now !!

[Hovik]

We all would love to do that Hovik .... but NO .. we will not buy our houses from the thiefs... We will only give them money to enforce their propaganda machine !

What you have suggested can be the best possible option if Turkey became more democratic ... but I think if we be a little more patient... the sick man of Europ may collapse again ! Who knows...

Plus, we don't know the language, we will need to move in groups to force them to accept us, and make our own comunity, our own schools, our own churches .... etc. but how can we trust Turkish governmnt once more !!
Last time we did that .... See where are we now !!

I think there are solutions to all of these issues, and will list them if requested, but the easiest solution was in my original post... re-establish yourself in Eastern Armenia... If half of the worlds Armenian diaspora relocates to Eastern Armenia, it's population will nearly double...

[imported_Freedom]

Hovik, the Armenian diaspora will not relocate... at least not any time soon (in the next two decades or so).

[Hovik]

Hovik, the Armenian diaspora will not relocate... at least not any time soon (in the next two decades or so).

Freedom, with all due respect - please speak for yourself... there are members of the diaspora that are relocating now... as we speak... I will soon join them...

Furthermore, the question was when was the time to do so, the time is NOW in my opinion... and it is happening - if you want to wait around two decades or so, or more or never come at all - that's your perogative

[Reincarnated Am]

Have Fun

xxx