a strange approach to genocide

[Tongue]

And the Questions are: Someone who thinks in such way, is he/she a denier? (Am I denier?) If I am a denier, am I going to be banned? (By the way I have stated my opinions about the event).

Ehh don't be silly, we already know where you stand. You've been a member of this forum long enough... If you were to get banned, don't you think you would've been banned by now?

Actually, I enjoy reading your posts. And I don't think you're a denier. You might not have a full knowledge of the genocide and I don't blame you, you are from Turkey, but you have an open mind and are willing to learn and find out more. Anyway, it's a pleasure to have you among us.

And to answer your last question, yes, I'm pretty sure they knew exactly what they were doing. I mean come on... all the torture and beheading and rape and etc. aside, you can't force over one million people out of their homes and to the desert with no food or water and not consider the consequences.

[1.5 million]

maral m79 - a very nice response - stated very well - I'm impressed. Welcome to the forum.

I disagree concerning cosmos - he/she is most certainly a Genocide denier - perhaps polite about it and not frothing at the mouth - but a denier just the same. This person continually brings up objections and excuses - even in the face of repeated evidence that contradict his/her statements.

Let me just say one more thing to Cosmos and all the Turks who come her and to other forum and deny the Armenian Genocide - you saying it wasn;t one changes nothing. In fact the definition of the term genocide was based primarily on the experience of the Armenians - R Lemkin wished for a word that did not yet exist to describe the horror - the disenfranchisement of a people - and you Turks can be proud (as you are of being Turks) that it was because of your forebearers that such a word - such a concept now exists.

[maral_m79]

did those jerks (Talat, Cemal and Enver) know what they were doing.

Any "Human Being" who Kill another "Human Being", must've known that he's doing something wrong...

The "First Killing" in the whole Humanity, when Adam's son killed his brother, he knew that he did something wrong, he hide, and when God asked him "Where is your brother?". HE LIED !

How about people who order death of THIS much of people ?! Did they know what they were doing ?

And if you mean, that the Term "Genocide" wasn't coined yet at that time, therefore, such massive crimes can't be thought about as something "Huge" by the perpetrators.

Then allow me to tell you that, On May 24, 1915, the Allied Powers, England, France, and Russia, jointly issued a statement explicitly charging for the first time ever another government of committing "a crime against humanity".

As you see, there was, even at that time, the sense of massive crimes like what had happened to Armenians 1915.

[maral_m79]

maral m79 - a very nice response - stated very well - I'm impressed. Welcome to the forum.

I disagree concerning cosmos - he/she is most certainly a Genocide denier - perhaps polite about it and not frothing at the mouth - but a denier just the same. This person continually brings up objections and excuses - even in the face of repeated evidence that contradict his/her statements.

1.5 million,

Thank You for your kind words, I appreciate it.

as for cosmos, I think that we should give him a chance ... it might be worthwhile...Being a Turk don't equal being a denier, maybe he want to learn, maybe not. Maybe he need our help to understand some issues, and maybe not.


It won't hurt us anyway...

[Hovik]

I don't believe cosmos is a denier, and even if he/she is, it still is not in the form that concerns this site. I enjoy cosmos' posts very much...

[cosmos]

So, here I continue again,

An approach like 1,5 million’s is not suitable for this site, I think. That is, if you strike to someone with your fist, its response probably will be a fist again. But if you pass your hand peacefully he/she will shake hands. Of course I bring here my objections and have some disapprovals about AG. I have been seeing some unfair criticism about our history so that I am responsible with correcting. And don’t forget that we learn the history in our sides which are not objective completely. But I am trying to be objective as much as I can and have two friends who are history teacher, who are open minded and know the Ottoman history very well from different sources. They have enough courage to talk about Darwin’s theory to students at private schools and courses. Who knows maybe they will talk about AG someday. Therefore on the contrary to your thougts, we are not fully controlled by the Government. If one wants to reach an information, it can be easily done even in Turkey.

I believe that the best place for learning the Ottoman history is Turkey. I don’t think so, European and American historians would know our history more than us. For example, the fat woman addiction of Sultan Crazy Ibrahim can be known mostly by Turkish historians. It is interesting that it was managed to find an Armenian woman for the Sultan who was very fat. You may dislike that but it is a reality.

So I accept the AG, but have some objections that were stated one of above post. My present at this site is due to those reasons. Therefore, if Turkey is tried someday, it mustn’t be unjustly.

1,5 Million says that my opinions are contradictory. He/she forgets that opinions are changeable. When I first came here, like every Turks, I was angry with Armenians (the anger that brings Turks here), but at the moment I am not. This is one of my difference too.

I frequently bring the issue of racism here. But have I thoroughly been anti-racist consciously or unconsciounsly? No. Let me tell a memory from my childhood.

A Kurd family had come our quarter (in one of Izmir’s Town in the West Turkey). We, children, didn’t like them. They were different from us and their child’s was a little frightening in the appearence. He was a little older than us, quarrelsome and a little savage. When one of our older and large friend thrashed him, we had been pleased. However, my closest friend was Kurd but we had grown up together and we didn’t see him as different. Most Family were from outside of Turkey in that Town, especially from Balkans. But there were different friends such as Yoruks (Pure Turks from villages of mountains, one of my Yoruk friend always would look on the ground to find a useful thing because they were very poor). But we were getting along well. At our quarter there was a neglected Greek Church which have been used as a warehouse by municipality at that time. The Greeks had supported their Army during their occupation of West Turkey. But after their defeating they had been sent to the Greece. We used to reside at the priest’s home of this Church. At those times of 70s, there was single black-white TV channel in Turkey. Sometimes we used to watch cowboy films. So, our one of most favourite game had been Cowboy-Indians game. I used to prefer to be a Cowboy because they were using Colt Pistols and Rifles and I liked their clothes. Of course that was not racism but that case is thought-provoking. How those films were effected us. As much as I remember there was a Armenian Church in the Town but it was far from our quarter and likely ruined before our time.

[phantom]

Not that my opinion matters, but I don't think Cosmos is a denier. He has clearly said that he believes that what happened was a Genocide. But even if he hadn't made such a proclomation, he strikes me as the sort of person who is here to learn and not to provoke (unlike Kemal or Ramil, for example). He doesn't know everything about the Genocide and neither does any one of us. He strikes me as the sort of person that we can all learn together with as we talk and discuss the events that took place during WWI.

Having said that, Cosmos I disagree that the Ittihadists didn't know what they were doing. They managed to completely cleanse Anatolia of any Armenian remnants in just 3 years. When considering how long Armenians had lived on those lands and how many battles, wars, ethnic cleansings, and atrocities they survived over the millenia, it becomes clear what an amazing accomplishment it was for the Ittihadists to cleanse these lands of Armenians in such a short time. There is no way it could have been done without a specific plan, and without intent to destroy. They knew that what they were doing would lead to immeasurable suffering and ultimate death. We know they expected death, because if they had expected the Armenians in the forced marches to live, they would have prepared suitable living grounds in the places where the Armenians were destined to march. But they didn't do that. The only thing waiting for the Armenians at the end of their long marches was empty dessert land with no means for providing water, food or shelter, the three things necessary to sustain life. Given these facts, I can't imagine a scenario in which the Ittihadists didn't know what they were doing.

[Gavur]

Cosmos:So, our one of most favourite game had been Cowboy-Indians game.

I remeber plaing that game too,I ilso remeber making wooden swords and playing Romans vs Turks,lol

[cosmos]

I made many wooden swords too. And we would break off pikes and use them as horses between our legs.

[Gavur]

I almost forgot i used to have friend Levent Baradan his father was a actor we played cowboys a lot.