Definition of the term "Genocide"... for all the deniers out there, lets discuss!

[Reincarnated Am]

No matter how you cut it, slice it, turn it, take it up or take it down, shake it or stir it, boil it or fry it, paint it white or paint it black, it was a cowardly act and inhuman crime against vast majority of innocent people that can never be justified, you can call it massacre you can call it genocide or anything you want, all I know it was a crime that needs to be acknowledged and ask for forgiveness. You can check your own Holly book “The Holly Koran” there’s no way it can be justified what was done to a God loving people. If you are a real believer of Allah or God you will understand this!

Turkish Distortions and Denial

[1.5 million]

Yes Gavur I feel the same about this a hole. "It didn't happen because I say it didn't" is what he is all about.

Anyway I want to address this issue of "Armenian Gangs" (that i already have addressed before). But here it is again - there are no credible reports of any kind of "Armenian Gang" activity to speak of during the immediate pre-war period that could be used to justify "deportations" and Genocide. What little of this sort of activity that did occur was something akin to local banditry and we even have instances of Armenians themselves turning these groups in to the Ottoman Authorities. There for far more numerous and destructive Kurdish bandit "gangs" and even "gangs" of Turkish deserters running about the countrside pillaging and killing people. This issue of supposed Armenain "Gangs" is a red herring. Let me repost a report from the German Ambassador during this period. You would think that being an ally of the Ottomans that he would be taking every oppurtunity to highlight Armenain misdeeds to justify the Turks and protect their image and such - but here is what he sent back to Berlin - (note when he refers to the constitution he means 1910 when the CUP took power)

exerpts from German Ambassador Von Wangenheim's April 15 1915 report back to Germany:

German archives # DE/PA-AA/R14085

"Pera, 15 April 1915 From the news from East Anatolia it is obvious that the relations between the Turkish Muslim population and the Armenians, which were already tense beforehand, have worsened even more in the course of the past few months. The mutual mistrust is growing and dominating the people and official circles, both in the interior as well as in the capital.

The complaints about the alleged and actual persecution which the Armenians are suffering as a result of the war are increasing in number and volume; on the other hand, they are being accused of sympathising with the Empire's enemies...

Each side is revoking the accusations of the other party as unfounded, or the blame for such events is being put on the others. There only seems to be agreement on one point: that the Armenians have given up their ideas of a revolution since the introduction of the Constitution and that there is no organisation for such a revolt.

Without doubt, excesses and acts of terror have taken place against the Armenians in eastern Anatolia and, in general, the events have probably been related correctly by the Armenian side, even if they were somewhat exaggerated.

For the events in these areas, the following are being made responsible by the Armenian side:

1. The irregulars and bands of marauders organised in military fashion and bearing the title Militia; these are being blamed for numerous plunders, murders, for robbery and other acts committed against the Armenian population of the country.

2. The clubs affiliated with the Comité Union et Progrès, in which many dishonest elements are said to be present. It is said that these clubs, in particular the one in Erzerum, have set up formal proscription lists, and a series of political murders which were committed on various respected Armenians since December of last year are attributed to their activities. It is added that the Ministry of the Interior is said to have been warned some time ago by the Armenians about the activities of these clubs which have already played a disastrous role during the events at Adana in 1909.

3. Various civil servants, in particular the governor of Musch (Vilayet Bitlis) and the Vali of Van. It is stated amongst other things that some 2000 Muslim families from the Russian occupied district of Alaschgerd, who are hardly in a position to pay for their own keep, have been accommodated in the Armenian villages of Musch; the Armenian farmers were being used like draft animals to transport ammunition and provisions and many of them died from this inhumane treatment; the least of them, it is said hardly a quarter, returned to their villages. In two districts of Van formal butcheries took place under the connivance of the Kaymakams.

it is emphasised that the Armenians – a fact which, one might note, is contested by the Turks - despite all the suffering they have been subjected to, are behaving loyally and correctly, but at least passively. However, under a continued, systematic persecution it can be feared that this peaceful attitude may take a turn to the contrary; the parties loyal to the government, such as the Daschnakzutiun, would no longer be able to hold back the masses and there would be a danger that, if the Russians advanced, not only the Armenians in the invaded area would go over to the side of the enemy, but also possible insurrections would be aroused behind the backs of the Turkish Army.

The appeal to the nobile officium of the German representation in Turkey is understandable following the development of the Armenian question, but especially now when, as a result of the war, the Triple Entente is eliminated as protectors. But an attempt at complying with this appeal and taking on the role that England after the Berlin Congress, and most recently Russia, have played as protector of the Armenians, would be regarded by the Porte as an unjustified and annoying intervention in their internal political affairs. The moment is even less suitable since the Porte has just made the effort to eliminate the protective rights, which other foreign powers have exercised over Turkish subjects. The Porte must also have respect for the national awareness of the Turkish elements, which has drastically increased over the past few years.

As far as the considerations otherwise presented by the Armenian side are concerned, they deserve serious attention.

...the present atmosphere in government circles...is most unfavourable for the Armenians...

I also believe that the increase in the number of German consulates in the so-called Armenian provinces, initiated in this connection, would not fulfil its purpose. It is probable that the Porte would see in this the attempt on our part to have their own authorities supervised...a procedure of this kind would have the consequence of setting the authorities against the Armenians even worse than ever and, therefore, of achieving results of just the opposite kind."



So from the above one can see that violent actions are already occuring against the Armenians (as we know by centrally directed Special Organization irregular units as part of a grand plan) with no mention of the reverse (Armenians are amazingly docile and quite considering - with individuals fleeing and deserting to the other side only) - which surely would have been mentioned by Turkey's ally it would seem. Also there is concern that the Turkish population and leadership is increasingly anti-Armenian and prone to take violent anti-Armenian action - however we see no reports of Armenian violence against Turks and certainly no armed rebellion of any kind. Note also that the Dashnaks are characterized as being loyal to the government.

Anyway all these excuses from Turkish posters here are just pure horsexxxx.

[Gavur]

It's no use this uneducated Turk won't read it !
You know reading him makes my brain hurt. First I have to transalate his English in to Turkish to see what his trying to say.Second I have to transalated back in to English to understand what he actually said ,all that and result is air HOT AIR!!!

[Tongue]

IT WAS NOT GENOCIDE...
IT WAS NOT A MASSACRE...
IT WAS NOT KILLING...
BECAUSE WE ARE NOT DEMONIC,SINISTER PEOPLE AND WE HAVE NOT ANY MATTER WITH YOU...OUR MATTER WITH EMPERIALISTS...SO

I CAN SAY IT WAS ONLY A WAR...

A war is fought between TWO ARMED FORCES. Not an unarmed population of women, children, and the elderly.

I can say you are mentally retarded...

[Tongue]

Wrong. I never used the word of backstabbing but rebelling for independence since Armenians themselves may consider the option of freedom regardless of their past actions or the actions committed on them. I have never ever called your rebelling gangs backstabbers or anything. If they rebelled then they rebelled.

Ok, perhaps someone else used the word backstabbing. So you're saying they rebelled for independence. I explained to you why Armenians wanted independence, after hundreds of thousands of them were massacred by Sultan's regime. You didn't say anything about it.

We remember Tongue, believe me we do.... This believe me is valid for a great percentage of Turkish people. Why do you think Turkey is trying hard to get in EU.

I don't want to talk about Turkey/EU in this thread. I want to concentrate on the meaning of the word genocide and see what part of the 1915 contradicts the definition.

Yes noone wants to mention it so I will mention it for you. Arabs uniting with English armies defeated the empire's army... That is why what happened to Armenians did not happen to them. Words, titles only go so far. When you are defeated in terms of military, in a place where people do not feel attached to your authority, that piece of land and people are gone. Simply Empire was not strong enough to inflict any kind of damage to Arab nation.

Why didn't the Ottomans deport the Arabs (just like they did to Armenians) before they united with the English forces to defeat the Ottomans? Perhaps because they were Muslims. Don't you think so?

Noone mentions it because Ottoman Empire's identity was based on religion of Islam more that ethnicity . When the people who actually converted us to Islam betrayed the empire ( yes their act I call betrayal) identity of the empire shattered. Thus Turkish nationalism followed to fill the gap...

And that's exactly why I'm saying what happened to the Armenians was genocide. Genocide: acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. If Armenians were Muslims and not Christians, they would've never gone through what they did.

Indeed, there is always a reason. However the point is Armenian gangs rebelled to the authority they lived under took action recieved pretty hard reaction. Where in the case of Hitler, Jews were standing doing nothing , Hitler killed them for his country's own trauma which was failure of German nation was not the fault of german people itself but Jewish minority living within Germany...
Saying

I finish my post...

Oh please, you think deporting over one million people to the desert with no food, water, or shelter is a rational way to deal with some rebels? They wanted to get rid of them permanently, no doubt. We would be fooling ourselves if we said they thought otherwise or blame the death of all those innocent people on some rebels here and there.

[Tongue]

do you think that you know our The Holly Koran as well as we do..I do not thinkso
why do you give example about our Koran...
maybe your The Holly Book let to kill and massacre innocent people
maybe also genocide is NOT SIN

Your poor English caused you to misunderstand Reincarnated's post. He wasn't in any way insulting your Holy Book, but saying that Allah would disapprove of the way you treated the Armenians in 1915. YOU however, are insulting the Bible in you last two lines. Watch out.

[phantom]

To the moderators, whatever you do, do not ban this Ramil guy. He is so good at making our points for us. Almost every sentence he writes is a gem. I wish they would publish this guy on the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times. We would have the Genocide acknowlegdged within a week if we could get this guy published internationally. Please let him continue talking.

[Reincarnated Am]

Oulan Ramil..!!! Can't you read?

To the moderators, whatever you do, do not ban this Ramil guy.

Take it easy man.....Too much of s--t (bokh) getting mixed with your brains (akhel)

[maral_m79]

do you think that you know our The Holly Koran as well as we do..I do not thinkso
why do you give example about our Koran...

You know why ?
Because the whole Islamic world "condemned" what Turks did to Armenians in 1915, the term genocide was not coined yet, but the crime, was there, for the whole world to see it ....

Check out what did the Sherif of Mecca, the descent of Prophet Mouhamed had said about the Armenian Genocide, check out what the Son of the Iranian Ayatollah had said about the Armenian Genocide, check out how the Muslims called the Turks all the names, from barbarians to infedals ....

If you think that we don't know anything about Muslims, Islam or Koran, you are wrong my friend, you exile us to Arab's lands, we studied those stuff at schools, maybe just like you, except that we know the Original Koran Language, that you have no idea about, Arabic.

[ramilseferov]

You know why ?
Because the whole Islamic world "condemned" what Turks did to Armenians in 1915, the term genocide was not coined yet, but the crime, was there, for the whole world to see it ....

Check out what did the Sherif of Mecca, the descent of Prophet Mouhamed had said about the Armenian Genocide, check out what the Son of the Iranian Ayatollah had said about the Armenian Genocide, check out how the Muslims called the Turks all the names, from barbarians to infedals ....

I HATE ARABIC AND IRANIAN PEOPLE THEY BETRAYED US IN WW1 AND THEY have been paying of what they did in the history...for our religion to say somebody is not moslem is not suitable but they say "Turks are not moslem" because of this they have to suffer