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Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

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  • Christian workers throats slit by Turkish Islamists.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ath-trial.html



    A gang of suspected Islamic nationalists was facing the <<<possibility>>> of trial for the torture and murder of three Christians at a Bible publishers in Turkey after investigators called for their prosecution.

    A judge was <<<considering>>> whether the group - 11 men and one woman - should face trial after they were questioned for eight hours over the deaths of two Turks and a German, who were bound to chairs and had their throats slit in Malatya on Wednesday.


    The murders came amidst an upsurge in extremist violence as Turkey struggles to join the European Union.

    As European leaders repeatedly postpone a target date for Turkish entry, resentment at the reforms being enacted to meet EU criteria is building.

    The attack was the third against Christians in Turkey in a year. In the first case a Roman Catholic priest was stabbed at the altar in the Black Sea port of Trabzon, then an Armenian journalist was shot dead in central Istanbul. The common link was that the killers claimed they were defending Islam from Christian proselytising.

    However, many Turks reject that they are a sign of a rising Islamic militancy that is sweeping the Middle East.

    At first glance, Malatya appears far distant from any form of extremism. Its streets are lined with modern clothing and furnishing shops at the forefront of Turkey's economic renaissance. Its young population cheerfully lines up for buses to private universities that specialise in technology studies. Placards sell the dream of owning your own house.

    On the journey between the Ilhas Vakfi Yurdu hostel and the publishing house there are at least five shops with prominent hoardings for Tuborg lager and Efes pilsner. If this were Baghdad and Islamic radicals were exerting their grip, the owners of the alcohol outlets would be dead.

    Emine Cemal, a middle-aged Turkish woman nursing a beer in a bar, rejected the idea that the attacks were linked to a rising militant Muslim orthodoxy.

    "I don't think this has a religious root, it's about nationality," she said. "To be Turkish is to be Muslim and so Christians are here working against Turkey."

    In fact, Christians are a fraction of one per cent of Turkey's 71 million people but it is common for Turks to complain that evangelical churches are proliferating at an alarming rate. Courts continue to prosecute converts for insulting "Turkishness". Three members of the Turkish Protestant Church are currently standing trial.

    Missionary activity, while not an offence, has been placed on the list of threats to the nation by the National Security Council.

    The fusion of extreme nationalism and anti-Christian activity has a long history in Malatya. The city is the birthplace of Mehmet Ali Agca, the Turk who attempted to assassinate Pope John Paul II in 1982. It was also the home town of the slain journalist Hrant Dink.

    The city's once large Armenian Christian population has been squeezed out. The only surviving remnant of the community is a derelict church. Yet the association lingers as a term of abuse. Rivals taunt supporters of Malatyaspor football team with "Armenian Malatya".

    The secular Turkish Republic established after the fall of the Ottoman Empire does not fit easily into Brussels prescriptions of democracy. To meet European demands, Turkey is rapidly dismantling the rules established to purge religious influence from national life.

    "Turkey is in a state of transition," said Hussein Ali Karacan, a leading nationalist. "The speed of transformation is shocking to the mindset of nationalists."


    It gets better......see below


    J-ews and Armenians not allowed……DOGS welcome.
    Attached Files
    B0zkurt Hunter

    Comment


    • Re: Christian workers throats slit by Turkish Islamists.

      Originally posted by Eddo211 View Post
      The secular Turkish Republic

      "Turkey is in a state of transition,"
      A) The secular Turkish Republic

      In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and freedom from the government imposition of religion upon the people, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief, and gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

      Secularism fail!

      B) Turkey is in a state of transition...but to what...if Nationalists have their way...here we go...

      Ethnocracy is a form of government where representatives of a particular ethnic group(s)hold a number of government posts disproportionately large to the percentage of the total population that the particular ethnic group(s) represents and use them to advance the position of their particular ethnic group(s) to the detriment of others.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocracy

      ^Yep this definitely rings a bell

      Comment


      • Re: Christian workers throats slit by Turkish Islamists.

        Originally posted by hipeter924 View Post
        A) The secular Turkish Republic

        In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and freedom from the government imposition of religion upon the people, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief, and gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

        Secularism fail!

        B) Turkey is in a state of transition...but to what...if Nationalists have their way...here we go...

        Ethnocracy is a form of government where representatives of a particular ethnic group(s)hold a number of government posts disproportionately large to the percentage of the total population that the particular ethnic group(s) represents and use them to advance the position of their particular ethnic group(s) to the detriment of others.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocracy

        ^Yep this definitely rings a bell
        People in this forum love to single out Turkey on any subject. Secularist Turkey and laughing smileys... I do not claim a perfectly secular Turkish state (if there is any formal boundaries for it) now or in the future, but my laughing smileys will be dedicated to pseudo-intellectuals that can only stick their heads out in environments that they know they will be fully supported regardless of their garbage.

        Please read below (a copy paste from one of my previous posts as well)

        "Despite their constitutionally secular status, the United States, France, and Turkey--the three cases that I examine in this dissertation--have, in fact, been deeply concerned with religion and have engaged it on many fronts. The three states’ rules regarding the wearing of headscarves reflect a broad array of policy differences among them. Yuksel Sezgin and I have prepared an index of state-religion separation based on 29 issues and 40 countries. 4 According to this index, the states maintaining the firmest separation from religion would have the score of 0.0 (0/29) and the ones with the weakest separation would have 1.0 (29/29). The score of the US is only 0.17 (5/29), whereas that of France is 0.34 (10/29) and that of Turkey is 0.48 (14/29). 5 In line with these differences, these three states have had distinct policies to regulate religion in schools. Historical and contemporary debates on secularism in all these three cases have pointed to education as the main battlefield in state-religion controversies. 6 In this study, therefore, I specifically focus on the five most publicly debated state policies on religion in schools in three cases: a) prohibitions on students’ religious dress and symbols in public schools; b) proscriptions on student-led prayer in public schools; c) restrictions on private religious education; d) the presence of religious instruction in public schools; and finally e) public funding of private schools run by religious groups. Table 2 compares my three cases regarding these five policies. Like the index data above, the table stresses a higher degree of separationism in the US, compared to France and Turkey. The ban on religious symbols exists in France and Turkey. In all three countries, students are not allowed to collectively pray in public schools. Turkey is the only one that bans private religious education; state-run religious schools and courses there have an official monopoly on religious education. Turkey is also an exception in religious instruction in all public schools. Finally, France is the only one among these three states that provides public funding to private schools run by religious groups."

        Source: http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_m...0/p42250-1.php

        ps: the above quotation is from page 3.


        It is funny to read the newstory in Eddo's post that Turkey cannot fulfill EU norms in terms of secularism. The academic work says, France almost got a similar ranking with Turkey! Howcome??? Isn't France the land of intellectuals, avantgardes of the social movement in Europe? Does anybody know whether EU countries, say France, does not actually comply with some EU laws (not confined to religious measures) that is passed?

        Turk and muslim at the same time! Wow! to be feared for sure! Can kill the missionaries without mercy... Meanwhile people are in prison for 8 years without any trial in UK because of terrorist accusations based only on their ethnic-religious identity without any evidence, and we are talking about EU religious/human right norms(!?) and how Turkey fails to comply with it...

        That really needs some laughing smileys that do not exist in the forum... Both for the posted stuff and the pseudo-intellectuals/activists/humanists as well.

        Comment


        • Re: Christian workers throats slit by Turkish Islamists.

          Originally posted by may View Post
          People in this forum love to single out Turkey on any subject.
          may, the reason for that should be pretty obvious, especially on this forum. Turkey, the evil republic, is the successor state to the evil empire.

          I agree with you totally about the double standards regarding "secularism" and democracy. What a joke that is.
          France enforces whichever EU law it sees fit and probably all the member nations do the same.
          New Zealand put as a shining example of democracy but isn't the English queen still Head of State there? Who voted for her then?
          And the English queen/king cannot, by law, be a Catholic. Standards/Standards.

          Turkey does itself no favours whatsoever in it's treatment of minorities and it's "bang on" nationalism........as regards it's muslim content, I could care less.
          Sardarabad,1918.

          Comment


          • Re: Christian workers throats slit by Turkish Islamists.

            Originally posted by hrai View Post
            may, the reason for that should be pretty obvious, especially on this forum. Turkey, the evil republic, is the successor state to the evil empire.

            I agree with you totally about the double standards regarding "secularism" and democracy. What a joke that is.
            France enforces whichever EU law it sees fit and probably all the member nations do the same.
            New Zealand put as a shining example of democracy but isn't the English queen still Head of State there? Who voted for her then?
            And the English queen/king cannot, by law, be a Catholic. Standards/Standards.

            Turkey does itself no favours whatsoever in it's treatment of minorities and it's "bang on" nationalism........as regards it's muslim content, I could care less.
            Hi Hrai, assuming your permission, I will use your response to clarify myself more before I receive weird responses (I do not mean yours).

            I am all up for criticizing Turkish government. Hell! I do it everyday, why should I ban others doing the same? But when the problems are stated as if only Turkey had, and more, Turkey has these problems because it is Turkey! As if having "Turk" in the name would imply those problems to happen.

            Turkey is just a country, full of people with a lot of wrong/right beliefs just like any other. Turkey is not a province of moon, so its politics is not isolated from other countries in the world. Its secularist policies will fail as much as the original country Turkey took the basics from (France that is)... Its nation state will have troubles as much as any other multicultural nation-states... Turkey will experience rise of Islamism as much as U.S. provided funds for Afghanistan against USSR, or as much as Muslim minorities are supressed/ridiculed in Europe. Turkey will come terms with its past as much as the British will ever do... Etc, etc...

            So "Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?" Absolutely yes, just like others, maybe later maybe sooner. The important thing is to find a country/person having real guts to ask this to another one. There is no tolerance-meter to measure tolerance, and you cannot understand its existence unless you face an "other". As a matter of fact, I should not be surprised with comments under such a caricaturized topic heading.

            Comment


            • Re: Christian workers throats slit by Turkish Islamists.

              Originally posted by may View Post
              Turkey is not a province of moon...
              ... not yet.... The "grey wolf" howls under the moon so it is definately within TURAN boundaries. The moon is the Turks next frontier.

              Comment


              • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                For the second time in one month Turkish law enforcement officials have expelled the same group of Uzbekistani refugees into Iranian territory in flagrant disregard for international standards protecting the rights of refugees and asylum-seekers.
                Amnesty International is calling on the Turkish authorities to conduct a prompt and impartial investigation into the circumstances of the illegal deportation of the 24 refugees, including children, from Van in eastern Turkey to Iran. The organization is concerned that there is no information regarding their whereabouts and well-being.

                http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/...ugees-20081014
                B0zkurt Hunter

                Comment


                • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                  Originally posted by Eddo211 View Post
                  refugees and asylum-seekers.
                  Translation = economic migrants and criminals. It is good to hear that Turkey is finally trying to secure its borders from these people and worse. In the past they just figured that since they were all heading to Europe why bother, it's Europe's problem.
                  Plenipotentiary meow!

                  Comment


                  • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                    Did you even read that Amnesty Int report or are you just blowing smoke out of your butt.


                    Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
                    Translation = economic migrants and criminals. It is good to hear that Turkey is finally trying to secure its borders from these people and worse. In the past they just figured that since they were all heading to Europe why bother, it's Europe's problem.
                    Such typical Turkish Genocidal mentality response Cats.
                    A month before this second deportation those poor people were beaten and their women and small girls were threaten with rape in Iran. They were held hostage by certain group and were only released after paying a ransom and threatened that if they ever comeback they will be killed. So what does your government do? Send them right back, again!!, to their killers………that scum of the earth of a country you call Turkey.
                    B0zkurt Hunter

                    Comment


                    • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                      Originally posted by Eddo211 View Post
                      Did you even read that Amnesty Int report or are you just blowing smoke out of your butt.




                      Such typical Turkish Genocidal mentality response Cats.
                      A month before this second deportation those poor people were beaten and their women and small girls were threaten with rape in Iran. They were held hostage by certain group and were only released after paying a ransom and threatened that if they ever comeback they will be killed. So what does your government do? Send them right back, again!!, to their killers………that scum of the earth of a country you call Turkey.
                      Awww, did I touch a raw nerve. Are you just gullable, or did I perhaps remind you about the blatant lies that you and your relatives told to con your way across Europe and into America?
                      Plenipotentiary meow!

                      Comment

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