Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

[neutral]

So what your telling me is you could feel like you are a Turk and presto yura Turk
Blood has nothing to do with it ?

Is it sort of like a confederation of states except the ethnicity of the states are unnamed,unmentioned?


lol.Like the United states of Turkey?

Oh my god I think you might have (nearly) got it!

Blood has nothing to do with being a Turk.

If you knew anything about Turkey you should've known that. You should know that Demographic studies have shown the majority of the population of Turkey are not pure ethnic Turks. Didn't you know that millions of Muslims from the Arab world, the Caucasus region, Albanians, Bosnia, Non-Muslims from Russia (Trotskyists, the Whites(as opposed to the Reds)), other Turkic people from Central Asia, and many many other races and peoples of different creeds settled in Turkey after the first world war.

I'm just supprised that Armenians are always talking about Armenia with 90-something percent ethnic Armenians, with pure Armenian Blood. "Karabakh is in 99.999% ethnic Armenian". Ethnic Armenia blah blah blah blah, we had ethnic Armenians in our ancient Armenian lands blah blah blah.

If you hadn't noticed yes Turkey is like the U.S. There are like 50 minorities (kind of like the 50 states) but they all in in harmony except for some Kurds that dont want to be apart of Turkey. (Its like they the Confederates and we are the United States of Turkey)

[Reincarnated Am]

Turks/Muslims do not deny Jesus(peace be upon him). We accept him as our Prophet.

They even deny that they deny Jesus Christ; they are masters of denial (What about calling Christians “Gavour”s or “Infidels”?)

[cosmos]

They even deny that they deny Jesus Christ; they are masters of denial (What about calling Christians “Gavour”s or “Infidels”?)

You need to ask it to prophet Muhammed who declared that 'all none-muslims are ''infidels'' (kafir)' and adding that 'we must do ''jihad'' in order to islamize them.'

And ''Gavur'' is an Arabic word too that was adapted into Turkish.

[TurQ]

Reincarnated.

Gavur means non-Muslim. Nothing more nothing less. Gavur was not used for Christians inside Ottomans. It was fined and punished by law(I am talking about before 20th century). It is kidn of an insult like saying nigger to a black.
I know a particular Ottoman law that prohibited of using it in Balkans in 16th century. The person who uses that word to a christian is fined and prisoned for a week and if it is repeated that person is exiled to another province.
Gavur is mostly used for the Christians who live outside Ottomans, like those in Russia or Europe. They were called Moskof Gavur(for the Russians) or Freng gavuru for Europeans. Ottomans thought Europeans of middle ages were living in inferior conditions and inferior societies. They uised the word gavur to desribe their inferiority(not racial, just societial). After 17th century when the tide turned to European side, Ottomans couldnt accept the Europeans are doing good and they are actually doing bad, and used that word in defense. They would say "Gavur Icadi" The gavurs' invention, we shouldnt adapt this or that. This was a mechanism to divert their mind from the fact that Ottomans are not performing good.

When the European powers and Russians begin to use religous, espiecially Orthodox nations inside Ottoman empire, the word that was used for outside Christian nations is now being used for the Christians inside Ottomans. As outside powers abused the multi-cultural body of Ottoman state, the word "Gavur" expanded its meaning to inside CHristians and Armenians are one of them. In 1900s now the word Armenian and Russian meant the same for those who were affected by Russians. They were no different from MOskof Gavur.

The word gavur shows how the multi-cultural body of Ottomans were destroyed by outside powers. The use of Gavur in 16th century and in late 19th century were totally different. The word had its own journey and shows how nations diverged

They even deny that they deny Jesus Christ; they are masters of denial (What about calling Christians “Gavour”s or “Infidels”?)

[TurQ]

Cosmos what you are saying is not true can not be attributed to Prophet Himself. You might find such assertions in Ilhan Arsel's book but not in the frames of Islam.

Islam was not spread by the pwoer of sword as opposed to popular acceptance in some certain circles.
The world's largest Muslims communities in Indnodesia/Malesia exist today just because of the works of some Sahabis(Companions of Prophet) who did business/trade in those nations. No Albaninan accepted Islam by Force, no Bosnian or Cherkez accepted Islam by Force, and actually no Arab accepted it by force. Turks reacted against the Pan-Arab Emevid style and opposed Islam, but embraced the faith when Abbasids adopted rational policies. Turks accepted the faith from Mid-east to Eastern Turkistan in 100 years time. And no Arab/muslim state ruled those areas(may be briefly in today's Ozbekistan).

If Turks had accepted Islam by force on the contorary to their will they would denounce and leave the faith when the MOngols(Jengiz and Hulagu) forced them to give up the religon, just 2 hundread years after their acceptance.

The word Jihad means struggle, which also includes war, but it cannot be described as only war. Right after the battle of Bedir, Prophet said we are returning from the smaller Jihad to bigger Jihad(meaning the struggle within a person's heart).

Cosmos this particular claim is adapted by some *certain* groups in Turkey for social engineering purposes, they dont want Islam to be part of Turkish culture/identity. It is the continuation of Young Turk ideals like Abdullah Jevdet's. They wanted to re-define and re-create a Turkish identity and Turkish nationalism which is stripped of traditional Turkish values.

You need to ask it to prophet Muhammed who declared that 'all none-muslims are ''infidels'' (kafir)' and adding that 'we must do ''jihad'' in order to islamize them.'

And ''Gavur'' is an Arabic word too that was adapted into Turkish.

[TurQ]

As I wrote in an earlier post, Christians and Jews are described as People of the book, Ehli Kitap.

The word gavur has more sociological meaning than religous meaning. We also have phrases like "Gavur's stubborness", or to descrbe cruelty the word gavur is used. And it was in general used against Christians, not the Jews or Atheists.

As Greeks and Armenians are being equated more with Europeans and Russians, the word Gavur was used for them, as they became the "other", the word that described the Europeans and Russians were used for them as well.

They even deny that they deny Jesus Christ; they are masters of denial (What about calling Christians “Gavour”s or “Infidels”?)

[Reincarnated Am]

You need to ask it to prophet Muhammed who declared that 'all none-muslims are ''infidels'' (kafir)' and adding that 'we must do ''jihad'' in order to islamize them.'

And ''Gavur'' is an Arabic word too that was adapted into Turkish.

So which one is it?
You use “Ehli Kitap” When you want to make friends with a Christians or you use that term when you want to screw a nice Christian chick or you use it to back stab them?

Then you use “Gavour” and “Infidel” when your done with them and you want to kill them or massacre them?

[Reincarnated Am]

Muslims are not against Jesus or his Mother Meriam. On the contrary a person can not be a Muslim if he/she deny Jesus, Moses, Zacharia, Yahya(John) and other Prophets. The only difference is Islam does not accept trinity.

There is a whole chapter in Qur'an named Mary(Meriam). Can read the English translation from this link

http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/surah19.html

I know TurQ what you’re saying, but tell me how many Turks act according what you say?

[TurQ]

As I said Gavur is not a religus term. The technical term in Islam is Ehli Kitap, the people of the book that is used for Christians and Jews. You can ask and learn this from any Armenian Historian.



You can equate the word nigger with gavur.

So which one is it?
You use “Ehli Kitap” When you want to make friends with a Christians or you use that term when you want to screw a nice Christian chick or you use it to back stab them?

Then you use “Gavour” and “Infidel” when your done with them and you want to kill them or massacre them?

[TurQ]

What I say wont make sense to you. I just recommend you to make some Turkish friends and ask them in person.
I personally dont recall myself and my friends/relatives using that word for Armenians or Greeks of Turkey. My graduation project supervisor was an Armenian Professor in Bogazici university(Talin Budak), and I had taken physics class from Prof. Avedis Hajinliyan. Those were the professors in Istanbul, I dont remeber any of my class mates having used that word for them. We all had respect for them.

I dont remember that word being used frequently. My friend's mom used that for his Muslim American friend though. She said "How can you let that gavur to be in our house", my friend told her that his friend was a convert to Islam, but she insisted how can he get a gavur to their house. Later we figured out that, her mom thought that my friend didnt know him before well. What she was trying to say was "how can you let a foreinger to sleep in our home that you dont know well". After she learned that they were actually friends from US and strong friendship, she treated him as a respected guest.

May be Armenian social scientist should conduct academic research on this word "Gavur" and see the results by themselves.

I know TurQ what you’re saying, but tell me how many Turks act according what you say?