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Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

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  • #71
    About the gaps, and difference in understanding and perception you are absolutly right.


    Originally posted by 1.5 million
    TurQ - I did not mean to request you to leave. You hae been reasonable and I understand what you are saying and your position on trying for good relations. You have not specifically insulted me or Armenians per se - however perhaps you do need to consider the situation and how perhaps seemingly inocent words/position taken might be taken by Armenians. I don't at all discount that some of these events can be seen differently - obviously there is a great difference of perspective between the Turkish and Armenian side - and I am not likewise claiming that I or Armenians have a monopoly on the truth or that there is much that we might not know or appreciiate. However my critique concerning the specific statement of yours above stands.

    Comment


    • #72
      Originally posted by TurQ
      1.5 Million and Phantom

      I am not producing any excuses, I post what I believe and what I know.

      And to clarify my position about CUP, I hate those people. They are the worst disaster happened to my nation. My dad who is a retired air-force officer has same thoughts about those people. I hardly know any Turk who are fans of CUP.
      Yet a great deal o fthe Turkish rationalization revolves around making excuses for these guys - no? Of course underlying the facts of the Genocide was that while it was envisioned and enacted by a reletively small group of nasty xenophobic men - they were not at a loss for followers - other men who commited the most grave of acts and were willing to become depraved if they were not already such - and the fact that at the time there was a great deal of sympathyand participation from the Turkish people as a whole who (as a group) were kwick to take up the hateful banner and slaughter and take advantage of their unfortunate Christian neighbors. Not all perhaps - but enough - plenty - and this is a very sad indictment. One day this phenomon and the conditions and other inputs that made such a thing possible will perhaps be more studied - if not entirely diminished in memory due to the passage of time...however at the moment - with such resistance to even accepting the facts and the characterization of such as a Genocide - the focus goes round and round discussing the same old issues - relevant or otherwise..
      Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?
      Adolf Hitler (22 August 1939)

      Comment


      • #73
        Originally posted by TurQ
        About the gaps, and difference in understanding and perception you are absolutly right.
        You might be surprised how much some/certain of us Armenians do appreciate and are aware of concerning what normally might be considered as the Turkish perspective and how well we might understand and appreciate the dynamics of Turkish history/politics and what have you. I knw that Phantom does as I have been reading his posts in various (Turkish) forums for many years now...and I am not without some knowledge/perspective/appreciation of things other then what might be called a popular or tradtional (Armenian) perspective as well. In fact i am regularly attacked by the hard core nationalistic Armenians and have had many a bloody disagreement with such....
        Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?
        Adolf Hitler (22 August 1939)

        Comment


        • #74
          Can Armenia learn tolerance?

          October 21, 2005

          Grad student recounts months jailed in Armenia

          by David Graham



          Graduate student Yektan Türkyilmaz, who was jailed for months in Armenia over the summer, spoke Thursday.

          Yektan Türkyilmaz, a fourth-year graduate student in the Department of Cultural Anthropology, spoke to a crowd of about 70 Thursday at the von der Heyden Pavilion. He recounted the tale of his arrest and incarceration in Armenia this summer.

          Türkyilmaz was arrested June 17 for exporting books more than 50 years old from Armenia shortly before he was scheduled to leave.

          His speech focused on his situation in relation to the political conflict between Armenia and Turkey that centers around the so-called genocide of 1 million Armenians in 1915.

          Originally, he said, agents of the National Security Service—commonly known as the KGB—tried to pin him with charges of spying for Turkey.

          “The concept of ‘scholar’ is pointless to them. According to them, all scholars are spies,” Türkyilmaz said. “I got the treatment I did because of the image of Turk due to the genocide.”

          Researching the involvement of Armenians, Kurds and Turks in the transformation of an region in eastern Turkey, he was the first Turkish scholar ever allowed to research in the National Archives of Armenia. The material he collected came under intense scrutiny during his detention.

          “I got good advice from the KGB on my dissertation,” he joked. “They told me my topic was too broad.”

          He added that a large effort to free him—including appeals from President Richard Brodhead and former U.S. Senator Bob Dole, a long-time advocate for Armenia—only created suspicion that he was a U.S. spy.

          After authorities found 90 old books in his luggage, he became the first person ever charged under the obscure provision of Armenian law. The code of law prohibits the export of cultural value.

          “It was only when they could find no basis [for espionage charges] that the issue of my illegally purchased books came into question,” he said, noting that he collects books and had not been aware of the law.

          In jail, Türkyilmaz said he could hear the screams of prisoners being tortured on the floor above him and said he was forced to sign a contract with a lawyer he believes was on the NSS payroll.


          Türkyilmaz was released Aug. 15 after receiving a two-year suspended sentence. Before his speech Thursday, he said he was proud that “open-minded scholars [in Turkey and Armenia] have created a new dialogue” that replaces the hostility that existed before his case.

          “It’s a pretty incredible story,” said senior Marina Kukso. “It shows research and the academy can be more relevant and politicized.”

          His case became a national issue, receiving attention from the Armenian media.

          “Duke University must be the most famous university in all of Armenia,” he said.

          As an ethnic Kurd, a Turkish national and an Armenian speaker, Türkyilmaz said his identity exacerbated his problems.

          “I got strong support from Armenian politicians,” he said, but he also noted the support was fruitless because the NSS answers only to the president and is independent of all other authority. He also added that pro-Soviet sentiments were a problem in the country.

          Türkyilmaz attributed some of the complications in his case to his cross-cultural background and academic perspective.

          “I was like a U.R.O.—unidentified researching object—for them,” he said. “They couldn’t understand who I was. I think they were really curious.”

          However, he said his controversial views—in tandem with the strained Armenian-Turkish relations—made it politically difficult for Turkish officials to publicly support him.

          Although he does not need to do anymore research in Armenia for his dissertation, he would like to return to the country, he said Oct. 18.

          “Why not? For me, there is no difference between Armenia and Turkey,” he said. “They are both my country—I love the people. I love the country.”

          Thursday’s speech was the keynote address for “Working Rights: Labor and Human Rights in the Transnational South,” a two-day conference sponsored by the Duke Human Rights Initiative that will continue through Friday.
          [left][b]“The creation of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic in the Northern Azerbaijan on some of Azerbaijani lands in 1918-1921, and its restoration…in 1991,[/b] [color=red][b]does not mean that the Azerbaijan national liberation movement is over[/b]…[/color] [b]The new stage will end with the creation and or restoration of a [color=red]united Azerbaijani statehood[/color]. … Already [in Iran] there are active organizations, whose sole purpose is the state independence of the Azeri Turks.”[/b][/left]

          [left][b][size=1][font=Tahoma]Abulfazl Elchibey(Ex-President of Azerbaijan)[/font][/b][/size][/left]

          Comment


          • #75
            ,” Türkyilmaz said. “I got the treatment I did because of the image of Turk due to the genocide.”

            Oh xxxx now the Turkey is going to charge him for admitting it was Genocide!
            "All truth passes through three stages:
            First, it is ridiculed;
            Second, it is violently opposed; and
            Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

            Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

            Comment


            • #76
              “Why not? For me, there is no difference between Armenia and Turkey,” he said. “They are both my country—I love the people. I love the country.”

              I guess Armenians didn't treat him too bad.
              "All truth passes through three stages:
              First, it is ridiculed;
              Second, it is violently opposed; and
              Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

              Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

              Comment


              • #77
                +crosses Up+

                UPDATE 2-Switzerland edge past Turkey as tempers flare
                Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:50 PM GMT
                Reuters.co.uk
                ISTANBUL, Nov 16 (Reuters) - Switzerland scraped into the World Cup on away goals after a 12-year absence following a 4-4 aggregate draw with Turkey in Wednesday's ill-tempered playoff.

                Turkey won a pulsating return match 4-2 but the Swiss, leading 2-0 after an impressive performance in Saturday's first leg in Bern, clinched a place at Germany 2006.

                Their celebrations were confined to the dressing room as the visiting players quickly left the pitch under a hailstorm of objects thrown by the disappointed home fans.

                The end of the match was also marred by clashes between players from both sides as they ran off the field, and an unused Swiss substitute was rushed to hospital following the trouble.

                Switzerland had appeared to be cruising when Alex Frei converted a second minute penalty following an Alpay Ozalan handball but Turkey then seemed set to turn the tie around.

                Two first-half headed goals from Fenerbahce striker Tuncay Sanli and an early second half penalty from Necati Ates put the home side within one goal of an aggregate victory.

                But as the 2002 World Cup semi-finalists threw everyone forward, the Swiss counter attacked and Marco Streller calmly slotted home in the 84th minute to restore their overall lead.

                With a minute left, Tuncay headed another goal to complete his hat-trick but it was little consolation for Turkey as Switzerland reached their first finals since 1994.


                LESSONS LEARNED

                "I think we will learn lessons from this and we will be better in the future," said Switzerland coach Koebi Kuhn.

                "The Turkey team did not play as I expected. Turkey have very talented players. They did not show their own football but played in the old English style."

                Turkey coach Fatih Terim told Turkish television: "You have to congratulate our players after they fell 1-0 behind.

                "I say well done to them (Switzerland) but I have never seen two such immoral referees both here and there".

                "Some of our players lost their concentration and as a result we conceded two goals."

                Asked about Terim's criticism of the referees, Kuhn added: "You have to look for the blame elsewhere. When you make a mistake you should not blame the referees".

                The state-run Anatolian news agency said Swiss defender Stephane Grichting, who was on the bench but did not play, was taken to hospital after the clash in the tunnel.

                "One of our players was diagnosed as having suffered internal bleeding and was taken to hospital," said Kuhn. "I don't know any more."

                The trouble started when Switzerland's Benjamin Huggel appeared to kick Turkey assistant coach Mehmet Ozdilek from behind as they ran off the pitch.

                Turkey defender Alpay, mixed up in a similar clash at the end of a Euro 2004 group playoff with England, then seemed to kick Streller as they entered the tunnel and Huggel flew into Alpay from behind, grabbing him around the neck.

                It was not clear what happened in the subsequent melee but television pictures showed security personnel holding back players as they headed towards the changing rooms.

                Regarding the missiles thrown by the crowd," Bicacki said: "It's possible that we'll get another fine from FIFA.

                Asked if anything could be done in future he added: "Yes, but it will take time, Things go slowly, slowly in Turkey."
                Attached Files
                "All truth passes through three stages:
                First, it is ridiculed;
                Second, it is violently opposed; and
                Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

                Comment


                • #78
                  Turkish, Swiss players fight in tunnel after match, Swiss player hospitalized

                  Nov. 16, 2005

                  ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - Turkish and Swiss players scuffled in the tunnel on the way to the locker room following their World Cup playoff Wednesday, reportedly injuring one Swiss player seriously enough that he required hospitalization.

                  Defender Stephane Grichting was taken to Acibadem Hospital following the scuffle, the Anatolia news agency reported.

                  Acidem Hospital confirmed that a Swiss player was admitted for treatment, but would give no details on his condition, Anatolia said. Switzerland coach Kobi Kuhn also confirmed the hospitalization, Anatolia said.

                  Turkey won the match 4-2, but Switzerland advanced to the World Cup on away goals after a 4-4 draw on aggregate.

                  Switzerland player Benjamin Huggel kicked Turkey's physio Mehmet Ozdilek as the two teams entered the tunnel after the game, but it is unclear what prompted Huggel.

                  Turkey's Alpay Ozalan tried to kick Huggel in retaliation, but instead made contact with a Switzerland player in front of him. Huggel then hit Ozalan on the back of the head and the two players wrestled each other to the ground, after which a number of other players joined in.

                  Swiss TV said the visiting team was rushing off the field to get away from angry Turkish fans and then were attacked by Turkish players and security guards.

                  "What happened afterwards is a scandal," said Marco Streller, who scored Switzerland's second. "Everyone had to run for his life. Security guards and Turkish players attacked us. One even kicked Beni Huggel in the head."

                  Streller, who plays for VfB Stuttgart in the Bundesliga, added that he knew who the Turkish player was, and "He'll find out" when they meet in the German league.

                  Tensions were high even before the crucial match, with the Turkish team complaining of poor treatment in the first leg in Bern, Switzerland.

                  Turkey coach Fatih Terim said Switzerland striker Alexander Frei cursed at him and made an obscene hand gesture after the first match, but Frei denies doing so.

                  AP NEWS
                  The Associated Press News Service
                  "All truth passes through three stages:
                  First, it is ridiculed;
                  Second, it is violently opposed; and
                  Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                  Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

                  Comment


                  • #79
                    The match was tense in Switzerland, and losing the match after 4 goals is really tragic. What can I say? It is really bad not to attend the world cup after 4 goals. They say the referee was a real Jerk.



                    Originally posted by Gavur
                    Nov. 16, 2005

                    ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - Turkish and Swiss players scuffled in the tunnel on the way to the locker room following their World Cup playoff Wednesday, reportedly injuring one Swiss player seriously enough that he required hospitalization.

                    Defender Stephane Grichting was taken to Acibadem Hospital following the scuffle, the Anatolia news agency reported.

                    Acidem Hospital confirmed that a Swiss player was admitted for treatment, but would give no details on his condition, Anatolia said. Switzerland coach Kobi Kuhn also confirmed the hospitalization, Anatolia said.

                    Turkey won the match 4-2, but Switzerland advanced to the World Cup on away goals after a 4-4 draw on aggregate.

                    Switzerland player Benjamin Huggel kicked Turkey's physio Mehmet Ozdilek as the two teams entered the tunnel after the game, but it is unclear what prompted Huggel.

                    Turkey's Alpay Ozalan tried to kick Huggel in retaliation, but instead made contact with a Switzerland player in front of him. Huggel then hit Ozalan on the back of the head and the two players wrestled each other to the ground, after which a number of other players joined in.

                    Swiss TV said the visiting team was rushing off the field to get away from angry Turkish fans and then were attacked by Turkish players and security guards.

                    "What happened afterwards is a scandal," said Marco Streller, who scored Switzerland's second. "Everyone had to run for his life. Security guards and Turkish players attacked us. One even kicked Beni Huggel in the head."

                    Streller, who plays for VfB Stuttgart in the Bundesliga, added that he knew who the Turkish player was, and "He'll find out" when they meet in the German league.

                    Tensions were high even before the crucial match, with the Turkish team complaining of poor treatment in the first leg in Bern, Switzerland.

                    Turkey coach Fatih Terim said Switzerland striker Alexander Frei cursed at him and made an obscene hand gesture after the first match, but Frei denies doing so.

                    AP NEWS
                    The Associated Press News Service

                    Comment


                    • #80
                      [ISTANBUL (AFP) - Switzerland qualified for the 2006 World Cup finals despite a 4-2 second leg play-off defeat to 2002 bronze medallists Turkey here.

                      ADVERTISEMENT

                      The Swiss won the first leg in Bern 2-0 for a 4-4 aggregate and go through on the away goals rule.

                      The Turks had a mountain to climb after Alpay, arguably their most experienced player, was whistled handling the ball in the penalty box after only 20 seconds of play.

                      Alexander Frei converted from the spot after two minutes but Tuncay Sanli got the equalizer after 24 minutes with a flying header off a curling free kick from Newcastle United's Emre Belozoglu.

                      Hakan Sukur gave Turkey a 2-1 lead at the break with another header after 38 minutes following a cross from Galatasaray teammate and fellow 2002 veteran Ergun Penbe.

                      Turkey nearly got a third just after the break after sloppy Swiss defending but Necati Ates headed wide.

                      Frei broke away but kicked wide in the 47th and the continuing assault by Fatih Terim's men paid off in the 52nd when Christoph Spycher cut Anderlecht attacker Serhat Akin down in the penalty box.

                      Ates converted to make it 3-1 and the Turks pressed on in quest of the three-goal difference that would send them to Germany, but the cool Swiss took control and came close to reducing the deficit several times.

                      As the Turks pressed on, they exposed themselves to counterattack and Marco Streller, a 33rd minute replacement for Daniel Gygax, grabbed a bad pass to make it 3-2 after 84 minutes.

                      Turkish hopes for a three-goal difference rose when Tuncay headed in a pass from Sukur in the 89th and a 4-2 scoreline, but four minutes of added time were not enough for a liberating fifth goal.

                      Coach Terim was furious, blaming the referees in both legs - Slovakia's Lubos Michel Saturday in Bern and Belgium's Franck de Bleeckere in Istanbul - for crucial errors, which he said cost Turkey a place in the finals."These people are thieves, they are immoral" he raged.

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