Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

[TurQ]

I am not here for the battle of words.I just write what I know.
I personally had no false intentions for any women including *christian chicks*.

So which one is it?
You use “Ehli Kitap” When you want to make friends with a Christians or you use that term when you want to screw a nice Christian chick or you use it to back stab them?

Then you use “Gavour” and “Infidel” when your done with them and you want to kill them or massacre them?

[Gavur]

Swiss are given hostile reception

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/football/11/14/world.turkey.reut/index.html?section=cnn_latest

[phantom]

What I say wont make sense to you. I just recommend you to make some Turkish friends and ask them in person.
I personally dont recall myself and my friends/relatives using that word for Armenians or Greeks of Turkey. My graduation project supervisor was an Armenian Professor in Bogazici university(Talin Budak), and I had taken physics class from Prof. Avedis Hajinliyan. Those were the professors in Istanbul, I dont remeber any of my class mates having used that word for them. We all had respect for them.

I dont remember that word being used frequently. My friend's mom used that for his Muslim American friend though. She said "How can you let that gavur to be in our house", my friend told her that his friend was a convert to Islam, but she insisted how can he get a gavur to their house. Later we figured out that, her mom thought that my friend didnt know him before well. What she was trying to say was "how can you let a foreinger to sleep in our home that you dont know well". After she learned that they were actually friends from US and strong friendship, she treated him as a respected guest.

May be Armenian social scientist should conduct academic research on this word "Gavur" and see the results by themselves.

Last time I was in Turkey, which was over 10 years ago, I was shopping with my Aunt, brother, mother and father. I happened to be wearing a necklace with a cross. A shopowner heard me speaking English with my brother and assumed we weren't Turkish, and he called me a gavur. I told my aunt who lives in Turkey and is married to a Turk, and she took the shopowner to the back of his store and scolded him. When they both emerged from the back of the store, the shopowner apologized profusely.

Anyway, I'm not sure that this is a big issue. And I don't think that the problem rests with Turks having this word or that word as part of their vocabulary. The problem is that the vast majority of Turks are undereducated when it comes to their minorities and when it comes to human rights for minorities. Thus, they are susceptible to government sponsored racism and racism spread by the media. Do you think that a pogrom, like the one that happened in the 50s, against Armenians, Jews, or the few Greeks that are left is possible today in Istanbul?

[cosmos]

So which one is it?
You use “Ehli Kitap” When you want to make friends with a Christians or you use that term when you want to screw a nice Christian chick or you use it to back stab them?

Then you use “Gavour” and “Infidel” when your done with them and you want to kill them or massacre them?

What are you taking me for? Your opinions are emotional and based upon your personal ideas. I haven't done these things even one time. They are far away from my attitude to the life.

[maral_m79]

Reincarnated.

Gavur means non-Muslim. Nothing more nothing less. Gavur was not used for Christians inside Ottomans.

Unfortunately, that's not true.

As cosmos said earlier ... Gavur = Kafir and it's an Arabic originated word means EXACTELY "Infedal" ... Someone with no religion or Heathen (Wathani) ...

During the Late Ottoman Period, the Young Turks branded Armenians as Gavur , and the Mula's in their Friday speeches (Ordered by the governemnt) encouraged the Muslims (Turks and Kurds) to Kill those Gavurs to go to heaven. In some eyewittnesses, they said that the Muslims used to say the Islamic "Shahada" (i.e. Ashhadu an La Elaha ella Allah, wa an Mohamed Rasoul Allah = I wittness that there is not God but Allah, and Mohamed is His prophet) They chanted THAT while killing Armenians ...

Or you have no idea about the Young Turk's Slogan "Arab Khaien , Ermen Gavur " .

May be Armenian social scientist should conduct academic research on this word "Gavur" and see the results by themselves.

No need to consult anyone TurQ, I know Arabic very well, and I'm telling you that the word Gavur means EXACTELY = Infedal , not "non-faithful" ( gher moomen) , but infedal.

[maral_m79]

As I said Gavur is not a religus term. The technical term in Islam is Ehli Kitap, the people of the book that is used for Christians and Jews. You can ask and learn this from any Armenian Historian.



You can equate the word nigger with gavur.

I understand what you mean, but, the Koran contain that word "Gavur". Also many Hadiths of prophet Mohamed. it's a very frequentely used word in both. But, as far as I know, neither Koran, nor Mohamed used this word describing "Christians" nor "Jews". Ottoman Muslims (Turks and Kurds) DID. With a religious meaning, not only as social brand.

[TurQ]

Maral

I think we agree on the meaning of Gavur. Gavur means non-muslim this is the meaning. Kafir means non-believer, so this makes them very close in meaning. The way the word is used is more of a social brand/status not a religous term. If it were the case it would have been used for christians throughout the history. The usage of the word iin late 19th and early 20th century, intents to show that Armenians and Greeks are no more part of Ottoman nation, they are the "Other".

I suspect those speeches directed to innocent childrent men and women.
The law that a muslim should follow during a battle is clear. You can not even cut a tree in order to harm your enemy. I dont say these kind of speeches never ever happened, but this cant be wide spread.

You saying they were chanting these while they are killing the Armenians. You cant generalize this. I know from my own family/relatives and my friend's families how they were treated by Armenians, the vicious fedayis. But I make the clear distinction between the fedayis and innocent Armenians. You should understand how people felt defenseless, and in chaos in Bitlis, Mush in spring 1915. It is understandable they found refuge in religon during the fights.

Knowing Arabic is something, I didnt say you should learn/know arabic to know the meaning of Gavur, it would be a good idea for a social researcher to see how and why that word is used and what that word describes for a Turk.

I think Arab Khaein means, Arab Hain, the Arab traitor, Ermeni Gavur, is The Armenian Gavur.

PS: The word Kafir actually means the one who covers the truth or the one who does not want to see the truth(Hak). It describes a stubborness not to accept the truth. Gavur is not like that, it is just means non-muslim. AS I said before it was used against the outside christian nations first, and then later to describe the Greeks and Armenians or Assyrians in Anatolia, and it's used a slur/insult. Eventhough it means non-muslim it was used only for Christians not the Atheists or Jews.

Unfortunately, that's not true.

As cosmos said earlier ... Gavur = Kafir and it's an Arabic originated word means EXACTELY "Infedal" ... Someone with no religion or Heathen (Wathani) ...

During the Late Ottoman Period, the Young Turks branded Armenians as Gavur , and the Mula's in their Friday speeches (Ordered by the governemnt) encouraged the Muslims (Turks and Kurds) to Kill those Gavurs to go to heaven. In some eyewittnesses, they said that the Muslims used to say the Islamic "Shahada" (i.e. Ashhadu an La Elaha ella Allah, wa an Mohamed Rasoul Allah = I wittness that there is not God but Allah, and Mohamed is His prophet) They chanted THAT while killing Armenians ...

Or you have no idea about the Young Turk's Slogan "Arab Khaien , Ermen Gavur " .



No need to consult anyone TurQ, I know Arabic very well, and I'm telling you that the word Gavur means EXACTELY = Infedal , not "non-faithful" ( gher moomen) , but infedal.

[TurQ]

Maral

Could you tell me which Verse(Ayet) and Hadith contains the word "Gavur"?
I really am curious, I dont remember seeing it(I am not an expert).

I understand what you mean, but, the Koran contain that word "Gavur". Also many Hadiths of prophet Mohamed. it's a very frequentely used word in both. But, as far as I know, neither Koran, nor Mohamed used this word describing "Christians" nor "Jews". Ottoman Muslims (Turks and Kurds) DID. With a religious meaning, not only as social brand.

[Umay]

According to the Turkish Language Institutions Turkish Dictionary:

Kâfir:
1. The one who denies that there is a god and he is one.
2.(as an exclamation) A type of adressing to tease somebody or to complaint to somebody.
3.(as a metaphor) the one who is cruel, brutel
4.(in folkloric language or everyday language ) the onr who is non-muslim

Gâvur:
1.The one who is non-muslim
2.(as a metaphor)the one who isr cruel, brutal or stubborn.

According to Wikipedia:

The factual accuracy of this article is disputed.
Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page.

Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic word meaning "disbeliever", "denier" or "concealer." The Turkish form is Gavur.

In a religious context it generally means a person who is not of the People of the book, however it is often used to mean "person who disbelieves in Islam" or "infidel" [1]. The noun kufr means "not believing in God" or "blasphemy, atheism." In Fiqh, the term amounts to the equivalent of Christian excommunication. The verb, "to declare someone a kafir" is takfir. For example, the novelist Salman Rushdie was declared a kafir in the Fatwa of Ayatollah Khomeini.

According to some scholars in Islam, the correct use of the word kafir in Islamic theology does not include either Christians, Samaritans, Jews, and all "Sabians"Citation needed who are covered by the term Ahl-al-Kitab, or "People of the Book," because they are considered recipients of divine revelation from Allah. However, other scholars, such as those backing militant Islamists, often do not make the distinction in their rhetoric and do often use it to include these religious communities, or any enemy.

[TurQ]

I cant say such pogroms are impossible. If there were still Turks left in Armenia that would be the case for those Turks as well. You know very well how a Turks could be treated in Armenia.

The pogroms of 1950s were supported by deep state to destabilze the Adnan Menderes Government. There was a made-up news about Ataturk's house was bombed by Greeks. The tensions were high because of the events in Cyprus. However this was an organized event it was not sporadic/random. This does not show that everage Turk is against minorities.
The civilian and military components of the coup in 1960 actually organized it. They carried provocators with trucks to the places where minorities live. They had given special equipment to cut iron/steel, to break into closed minority homes/churches/businesses. Later these military coupists in 1960 convicted Adnan Menderes for these events and this was one of the many shameless reasons for these coupists to hang Prime Minister Menderes.

In the last 10-15 years the minorities in TUrkey have very good relations with Turkish mainstream religous people and nationalist parties(The llegendary eader of NAtionalist Action PArty, Alparlan Turkes, had spent his last years to establish relations with Turkish Armenians and Republic of Armenia). The main issue is that some groups are opposing TUrkey's EU bid and abuse minority problems. The main problem is not that people are fiercely hate minorities, the problem is some circles are provoking people in order to derail Turkey's EU initiations.

Last time I was in Turkey, which was over 10 years ago, I was shopping with my Aunt, brother, mother and father. I happened to be wearing a necklace with a cross. A shopowner heard me speaking English with my brother and assumed we weren't Turkish, and he called me a gavur. I told my aunt who lives in Turkey and is married to a Turk, and she took the shopowner to the back of his store and scolded him. When they both emerged from the back of the store, the shopowner apologized profusely.

Anyway, I'm not sure that this is a big issue. And I don't think that the problem rests with Turks having this word or that word as part of their vocabulary. The problem is that the vast majority of Turks are undereducated when it comes to their minorities and when it comes to human rights for minorities. Thus, they are susceptible to government sponsored racism and racism spread by the media. Do you think that a pogrom, like the one that happened in the 50s, against Armenians, Jews, or the few Greeks that are left is possible today in Istanbul?