Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

[Gavur]

somewhat interesting bur I wish it was in English.Naturally slanted, no admittance of genocide and a little middle eastern bs .

Typical Turkish nationalist BX they claim to know us Armenians better then we know ourselves.

[maral_m79]

The usage of the word iin late 19th and early 20th century, intents to show that Armenians and Greeks are no more part of Ottoman nation, they are the "Other". .

So, to conclude ...

(1) Gavur is the Turkish Version of Kafir (Arabic) , if it was used as a social brand or religious one, it was used to describe the Armenians.

(2) It was used to describe the Armenians in order to "Alienate" them, because as you say and I agree, they don't want them anymore as part of the Ottoman population. And let me add, to assure the Muslims that was ordered to "Kill" the Armenians that they are doing a favour to Islam by exterminating the "Alien Infedals".

I sense that you are trying to be honest, and reasonable TurQ. I will ask you this question, and I hope that you answer me with the same honesty.

1915-1916 events were an Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the CUP ?
Yes or No.

I think Arab Khaein means, Arab Hain, the Arab traitor, Ermeni Gavur, is The Armenian Gavur..

Thank you for the correction. Exactly, that's what I meant.

[maral_m79]

Maral

Could you tell me which Verse(Ayet) and Hadith contains the word "Gavur"?
I really am curious, I dont remember seeing it(I am not an expert).

I'm not an expert either, and I don't have a Koran with me right now, but I'm sure that you have read or heared more than once the word "Kafir", "Kufar" or "Kafiren" in the Koran and Hadith.

[maral_m79]

Petrosyan meets with Alpaslan Turkes (NAtionalist Action PArty)-1 ,2,3

It would be better if you post material in English. Please

[TurQ]

Yes Kafir (The surah of Kafirun is one example) is used, I was refering to the word Gavur, is it used in Kuran? I have never ever came accross to it.

I'm not an expert either, and I don't have a Koran with me right now, but I'm sure that you have read or heared more than once the word "Kafir", "Kufar" or "Kafiren" in the Koran and Hadith.

[1.5 million]

Yes it was used as a brand by late 19th century. There was also a law in those years enforcing minroities to wear certain dress, so they could be noticed easily. There were such discrimination, unfortunetly Ottomans founding values were eroding.

I dont accept that they were allinieted to be killed later , it was a reaction to Foreign intervention and the collaboration of rebels with outside forces.

Since mid 1800s Kurds were being harrassed by Armenian militia men in Eastern Anatolia. They were driven out from good farm lands. There was growing unrest among those villagers especially those who live in remote rural areas. You have to understand their resentment for decades.

...

It is impossible for us to brand Ottoman State as a *genocidal* state. You can not expect a Genocidal state to obey the rules of war.

...

Armenians became the scapegoats because of foreign intervention and deportation law was a pre-emptive measure taken against Russian threat. But the fact is that the threat itself was the result of CUP's policies getting into war(without consultation even to CUP body) and ordering the army to march against Russians in Sarikamis during arctic weather conditions and loss of major portion of the army in 1914-15 winter.

We can talk about genocidal minds but we can not say the state commited genocide. I believe Armenians should also critisize their leadership of those times who drove a nation into this chaos and tried to took advantage of weakness of Muslims in those provinces in those times.

Is wording so important? Once a thriving city Zeytun today does not exist. You should think we are really stupid not to understand Armenian sufferings. Everybody saw how people died and suffered after Hurricne Katrina, witnessed what happened when there is no rule of law and chaos even in USA in 2005. And everybody can understand and accept what had happaned 90 years ago during those circumstances and accept the events of killings of those who opposed the deportation law as the Russians were approaching in Eastern provinces(Especially the fighting age men). I dont think any Turk here in this forum would say no to these facts.

My thought for this issue, is that this issue is highly politisized and emotions are running high when this topic is discussed. For me reducing this to just the wording will keep us(both people) apart.

I encourage all Armenians here to make friends with Turks(with no preconditions regarding these events) who are either in your campuses or in your city. Tell your own experiences to them, share your stories with them. Or ask your elderly to tell their stories to them. Then am sure you'll also accept that reducing this issue into just a few words is fruitless.

The above version of events (yours?) is filled with many factual errors. I'm too tired to address them one by one at the moment. Suffice to say that the war gave excuse and cover for the CUP to fulfil what they had been planning since 1910 and this is proven by intelligence from the CUP central commitee meetings that were collected from mutiple European Intelligence services. Please stop trying to justify the unjustifyable and make every possible excuse. I particualrly laugh at this claim of Armenians terrorizing Kurds (allegedly since the mid 1800s) - so much of your version of this regions "history" has been twisted around 180 degrees - its no wonder you cannot accept the truth. I don't deny some Armenian violence and the existance (at times and at certain places) of Armenians "gangs" or what have you and that many of these acted barbarically. However it is clear that the Armenians suffered from much greater depravations and the existanc eof such groups on the Armenian side was a reaction to attempt to defend when the government charged with such had derilicted all duty and in fact was actively supp[orting other groups against you. It is entirely misguided to blame outside powers. The fault lies 100% with the failures of the Ottoman Sultans and Ottoman system and the status of Armenians as unprotected ethnic and religious minorities whose socio-economic ascendency in the Empire was resented and to which a backlash occured that included scapegoating for the falling fortunes of the Empire, Greed at the newfound wealth and status of the Armenains and other Christians and downright bigotry and religious/nationalistic/ethnic based hatred. Get over your contrived excuses already and learn the real history - then we can talk. In the meantime I do alredy have several Turkish friends and this is nothing new for me. However they no better to insult me/us as most of you Turks who have come to this forum have been doing.

[phantom]

The above version of events (yours?) is filled with many factual errors. I'm too tired to address them one by one at the moment. Suffice to say that the war gave excuse and cover for the CUP to fulfil what they had been planning since 1910 and this is proven by intelligence from the CUP central commitee meetings that were collected from mutiple European Intelligence services. Please stop trying to justify the unjustifyable and make every possible excuse. I particualrly laugh at this claim of Armenians terrorizing Kurds (allegedly since the mid 1800s) - so much of your version of this regions "history" has been twisted around 180 degrees - its no wonder you cannot accept the truth. I don't deny some Armenian violence and the existance (at times and at certain places) of Armenians "gangs" or what have you and that many of these acted barbarically. However it is clear that the Armenians suffered from much greater depravations and the existanc eof such groups on the Armenian side was a reaction to attempt to defend when the government charged with such had derilicted all duty and in fact was actively supp[orting other groups against you. It is entirely misguided to blame outside powers. The fault lies 100% with the failures of the Ottoman Sultans and Ottoman system and the status of Armenians as unprotected ethnic and religious minorities whose socio-economic ascendency in the Empire was resented and to which a backlash occured that included scapegoating for the falling fortunes of the Empire, Greed at the newfound wealth and status of the Armenains and other Christians and downright bigotry and religious/nationalistic/ethnic based hatred. Get over your contrived excuses already and learn the real history - then we can talk. In the meantime I do alredy have several Turkish friends and this is nothing new for me. However they no better to insult me/us as most of you Turks who have come to this forum have been doing.

Well said!

[TurQ]

1.5 Million
I write what I know. As I said I dont want to get into such discussions. I broke my word and wrote it, I can delete it if you like.

As far as insulting Armenians, I dont remember using any false language to Armenians here. My postings are here you can check those out. I can only speak of myself. I personally distance myself any false language used by some of my Turkish brethen here. I advice them to only to be reasonable. If not, spending time here has no meaning other then further antagonizing Armenians.

I also can leave the forum whenever you like, this is your place, and I am the guest.

The above version of events (yours?) is filled with many factual errors. I'm too tired to address them one by one at the moment. Suffice to say that the war gave excuse and cover for the CUP to fulfil what they had been planning since 1910 and this is proven by intelligence from the CUP central commitee meetings that were collected from mutiple European Intelligence services. Please stop trying to justify the unjustifyable and make every possible excuse. I particualrly laugh at this claim of Armenians terrorizing Kurds (allegedly since the mid 1800s) - so much of your version of this regions "history" has been twisted around 180 degrees - its no wonder you cannot accept the truth. I don't deny some Armenian violence and the existance (at times and at certain places) of Armenians "gangs" or what have you and that many of these acted barbarically. However it is clear that the Armenians suffered from much greater depravations and the existanc eof such groups on the Armenian side was a reaction to attempt to defend when the government charged with such had derilicted all duty and in fact was actively supp[orting other groups against you. It is entirely misguided to blame outside powers. The fault lies 100% with the failures of the Ottoman Sultans and Ottoman system and the status of Armenians as unprotected ethnic and religious minorities whose socio-economic ascendency in the Empire was resented and to which a backlash occured that included scapegoating for the falling fortunes of the Empire, Greed at the newfound wealth and status of the Armenains and other Christians and downright bigotry and religious/nationalistic/ethnic based hatred. Get over your contrived excuses already and learn the real history - then we can talk. In the meantime I do alredy have several Turkish friends and this is nothing new for me. However they no better to insult me/us as most of you Turks who have come to this forum have been doing.

[TurQ]

1.5 Million and Phantom

I am not producing any excuses, I post what I believe and what I know.

And to clarify my position about CUP, I hate those people. They are the worst disaster happened to my nation. My dad who is a retired air-force officer has same thoughts about those people. I hardly know any Turk who are fans of CUP.

The above version of events (yours?) is filled with many factual errors. I'm too tired to address them one by one at the moment. Suffice to say that the war gave excuse and cover for the CUP to fulfil what they had been planning since 1910 and this is proven by intelligence from the CUP central commitee meetings that were collected from mutiple European Intelligence services. Please stop trying to justify the unjustifyable and make every possible excuse. I particualrly laugh at this claim of Armenians terrorizing Kurds (allegedly since the mid 1800s) - so much of your version of this regions "history" has been twisted around 180 degrees - its no wonder you cannot accept the truth. I don't deny some Armenian violence and the existance (at times and at certain places) of Armenians "gangs" or what have you and that many of these acted barbarically. However it is clear that the Armenians suffered from much greater depravations and the existanc eof such groups on the Armenian side was a reaction to attempt to defend when the government charged with such had derilicted all duty and in fact was actively supp[orting other groups against you. It is entirely misguided to blame outside powers. The fault lies 100% with the failures of the Ottoman Sultans and Ottoman system and the status of Armenians as unprotected ethnic and religious minorities whose socio-economic ascendency in the Empire was resented and to which a backlash occured that included scapegoating for the falling fortunes of the Empire, Greed at the newfound wealth and status of the Armenains and other Christians and downright bigotry and religious/nationalistic/ethnic based hatred. Get over your contrived excuses already and learn the real history - then we can talk. In the meantime I do alredy have several Turkish friends and this is nothing new for me. However they no better to insult me/us as most of you Turks who have come to this forum have been doing.

[1.5 million]

TurQ - I did not mean to request you to leave. You hae been reasonable and I understand what you are saying and your position on trying for good relations. You have not specifically insulted me or Armenians per se - however perhaps you do need to consider the situation and how perhaps seemingly inocent words/position taken might be taken by Armenians. I don't at all discount that some of these events can be seen differently - obviously there is a great difference of perspective between the Turkish and Armenian side - and I am not likewise claiming that I or Armenians have a monopoly on the truth or that there is much that we might not know or appreciiate. However my critique concerning the specific statement of yours above stands.