Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

[egeli]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Epic Fail. If we had to visit every country to make an opinion. You would have no right to discuss democracy till you visited Greece, no right to discuss the Armenian Genocide without visiting Armenia, and no right to discuss an American movie because you are not from America. That argument is simply retarded. I read up on the Armenian Genocide (from books written by French, Armenians and so forth) and believe it happened. I don't need to be told I have to visit Armenia or Turkey to find out what I already know happened.

Go back to school. They should have taught you there that you can find out the truth through reading books from people that actually live there...you don't need to visit their countries.

I'm not denying the Armenian Genocide. I never said that one must visit a country to make a rational argument, i only suggested it as a way to personally meet Turks. All I am saying is that personal contact with Turks would lessen the caricature of Turks many diaspora Armenians are fed to since birth.

The genocide created the diaspora. Also, the diaspora were the main sufferers of the genocide. So its only natural that the diaspora descendants demonize Turks from their perspective. This demonization however is an artificial construction that is not rooted in PERSONAL experience with Turks, just on historical grievances, which as time passes by can be more and more distorted to fit the caricature.

Turks are also guilty of this, probably on a much more massive scale, as the whole country and its very foundation is based on collective amnesia.

Personal contact with Turks and Armenians is the only way to by pass stereotypes and caricatures, and is the only hope for reconciliation. But then again, you (and many other members of hyeclub) may not want peace between Turks and Armenians. If that is the case, tell me now.

[hipeter924]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Your response had nothing to do with my post, so my response will have nothing to do with yours.


This is an assumption, but i feel you have very little knowledge or familarity with Turkey's domestic politics. Everything you know about Turks is from an impersonal distance. Your entire view of Turks is a construction born out of your Glendale roots.

It reminds me of the constructed view many Turks have of Armenians. Too many Turkish people associate Armenians only with the atrocious murdering your Californian kin openly supported, and in some cases participated in, of Turkish diplomats.

The most rational members of this forum have some personal contact/experience with Turks. I suggest you visit the country.

Epic Fail. If we had to visit every country to make an opinion. You would have no right to discuss democracy till you visited Greece, no right to discuss the Armenian Genocide without visiting Armenia, and no right to discuss an American movie because you are not from America. That argument is simply retarded. I read up on the Armenian Genocide (from books written by French, Armenians and so forth) and believe it happened. I don't need to be told I have to visit Armenia or Turkey to find out what I already know happened.

Go back to school. They should have taught you there that you can find out the truth through reading books from people that actually live there...you don't need to visit their countries.

[egeli]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

egeli, the only reason we know about the Ergenekons is because of EU’s exposure to this fact and requirement to disband it in order to qualify for EU. Your government is on a damage control mode trying to depict them as a small terrorist group that has nothing to do with the state. Nobody is buying it egeli. Look to what they are saying:

"Turkish authorities should resolutely pursue investigations into the Ergenekon affair, to fully uncover its networks reaching into the state structures and to bring those involved to justice," the draft report, prepared by Dutch Christian Democrat MEP Ria Oomen-Ruijten

Additional requirements are

301: [The] Turkish government and the Parliament should carry out, as a priority, the repeatedly promised reform of Article 301 of the Penal Code; [the European Parliament] deplores the fact that no progress has been achieved regarding freedom of expression.

Northern Iraq: [The] Turkish government should not engage in any disproportionate military operations violating Iraq’s territory; urges Turkey to respect Iraq’s territorial integrity, human rights and the rule of law, and to ensure that civilian casualties are avoided; urges the government of Iraq and the Kurdish Regional Government of Iraq not to allow Iraqi territory to be used as base for terrorist acts against Turkey.

Kurdish Issue: [The] Turkish government should launch, as a matter of priority, a political initiative favoring a lasting settlement of the Kurdish issue, which can only be based on tangible improvements in the cultural, economic and social opportunities available to citizens of Kurdish origin, including real possibilities to learn Kurdish and to use it in broadcasting and in access to public services; calls upon the [Democratic Society Party] DTP, its members of parliament and mayors to engage constructively in the quest for a political solution to the Kurdish issue within the democratic Turkish state.

Armenia: [The] Turkish government should end the economic blockade and re-open its border with Armenia; calls once again on Turkish and the Armenian governments to start a process of reconciliation, in respect of the present and the past, allowing for a frank and open discussion of past events.

Hrant Dink murder: [The European Parliament] strongly urge[s] the Turkish authorities to carry out a full investigation into the murders of Hrant Dink and of the three Christians in Malatya, as well as all other cases of politically or religiously motivated violence, including full clarification of allegations of negligence on the part of the competent authorities, and to bring all responsible to justice.

Constitution: Takes note of the process under way to prepare a new, civilian constitution; regards it as a key opportunity to place the protection of human rights and freedoms at the core of the constitution.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=136277

I am quite confident that Turkey could never become part of EU.............unless they stop being Turks.
I only said that because I understand why Greeks would say "we support Turkey in EU" because they know it will tear the fabric of their society apart.

Your response had nothing to do with my post, so my response will have nothing to do with yours.


This is an assumption, but i feel you have very little knowledge or familarity with Turkey's domestic politics. Everything you know about Turks is from an impersonal distance. Your entire view of Turks is a construction born out of your Glendale roots.

It reminds me of the constructed view many Turks have of Armenians. Too many Turkish people associate Armenians only with the atrocious murdering your Californian kin openly supported, and in some cases participated in, of Turkish diplomats.

The most rational members of this forum have some personal contact/experience with Turks. I suggest you visit the country.

[Eddo211]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

egeli, the only reason we know about the Ergenekons is because of EU’s exposure to this fact and requirement to disband it in order to qualify for EU. Your government is on a damage control mode trying to depict them as a small terrorist group that has nothing to do with the state. Nobody is buying it egeli. Look to what they are saying:

"Turkish authorities should resolutely pursue investigations into the Ergenekon affair, to fully uncover its networks reaching into the state structures and to bring those involved to justice," the draft report, prepared by Dutch Christian Democrat MEP Ria Oomen-Ruijten

Additional requirements are

301: [The] Turkish government and the Parliament should carry out, as a priority, the repeatedly promised reform of Article 301 of the Penal Code; [the European Parliament] deplores the fact that no progress has been achieved regarding freedom of expression.

Northern Iraq: [The] Turkish government should not engage in any disproportionate military operations violating Iraq’s territory; urges Turkey to respect Iraq’s territorial integrity, human rights and the rule of law, and to ensure that civilian casualties are avoided; urges the government of Iraq and the Kurdish Regional Government of Iraq not to allow Iraqi territory to be used as base for terrorist acts against Turkey.

Kurdish Issue: [The] Turkish government should launch, as a matter of priority, a political initiative favoring a lasting settlement of the Kurdish issue, which can only be based on tangible improvements in the cultural, economic and social opportunities available to citizens of Kurdish origin, including real possibilities to learn Kurdish and to use it in broadcasting and in access to public services; calls upon the [Democratic Society Party] DTP, its members of parliament and mayors to engage constructively in the quest for a political solution to the Kurdish issue within the democratic Turkish state.

Armenia: [The] Turkish government should end the economic blockade and re-open its border with Armenia; calls once again on Turkish and the Armenian governments to start a process of reconciliation, in respect of the present and the past, allowing for a frank and open discussion of past events.

Hrant Dink murder: [The European Parliament] strongly urge[s] the Turkish authorities to carry out a full investigation into the murders of Hrant Dink and of the three Christians in Malatya, as well as all other cases of politically or religiously motivated violence, including full clarification of allegations of negligence on the part of the competent authorities, and to bring all responsible to justice.

Constitution: Takes note of the process under way to prepare a new, civilian constitution; regards it as a key opportunity to place the protection of human rights and freedoms at the core of the constitution.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=136277

I don't think you want Turkey in the EU regardless. Better to keep Turkey out, eventually the Azeri's and Turks will get so angry they will explode and go into isolation, and everyone will start to ignore them. Or we can hope that anyway.

I am quite confident that Turkey could never become part of EU.............unless they stop being Turks.
I only said that because I understand why Greeks would say "we support Turkey in EU" because they know it will tear the fabric of their society apart.

[hipeter924]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

I don't think you want Turkey in the EU regardless. Better to keep Turkey out, eventually the Azeri's and Turks will get so angry they will explode and go into isolation, and everyone will start to ignore them. Or we can hope that anyway.

[egeli]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Gotta love my man Bahceli! Not only is he very intelligent, he's also clearly level headed

Hey Joseph, its good to see you back! Now, hopefully the more intolerant members of this forum will stop chasing away non-troll Turks.

Speaking of Bahceli, he is 100% ideologically MHP but really there could not be a more civil leader of the MHP. He is a moderate within the party, and under his leadership the MHP has become less prone to condoning violence by its members.

[egeli]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

I agree with this Turk to some degree but unless I misunderstood I am not convinced at all that religion plays any major part in Ergenekons mentality unless it can be used to its advantage. Also In my opinion they cannot be classified as a "gang". More like an imperialistic sophisticated network.

They are a well lubricated clean lean machine carrying the torch of the original ideology behind panturkism (even without the pan) run by some of their best military leaders who have strong influence and control in the Turkish government that is already by its creation involved in a "deep State" Fascist condition with democracy as its front while capitalizing on its advantages.

They run impressive kangaroo courts in their controlled judicial system to fool the masses of "justice served" and Turkish democracy. I bet older retiree Ergenekons jump to volunteer to be an escape goat to get the special retirement plan after these trials.
"Grey Wolfs" is their civilian wing put to use as a propaganda tool, fresh recruitments for foot soldiers and some as triggermen for future target assassinations.

Our blood enemy is much stronger than it appears on the surface……………..Turks themselves fatally underestimate them.

Again these are just my opinions.
BTW, I support Turkey in EU……..………….That will be the biggest blow to the Ergenekons.

I'm acquainted with a "member" of Ergenekon who is now in exile from Turkey (a prison sentence awaits if returned). A more accurate description of Ergenekon members would be darbeci, prominent ultranationalist civilians who wish to overthrow the current AKP government through undemocratic means. Indeed, if things havent changed in Turkey in the last two decades, they would have succeeded.

The reason why they failed is because the Turkish Armed Forces, and the Turkish State (ie, not the elected government) no longer associates itself with these people, and are even distancing itself from retired officers sympathetic with Ergenekon. Members of Ergenekon are guilty of attempting to overthrow an elected government, and this is why they are only now being arrested.

Erdogan is an Islamist fascist but he has served his purpose by at least nominally reforming Turkey to meet EU standards (civil rights, democracy).

The Grey Wolves really are a relic of the past now, i always viewed them through this analogy..

MHP:Grey Wolves::ARF:ASALA. Cold war is thankfully over ....

[Eddo211]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

.......The main purpose of Ergenekon, after all, is to create an obsessively nationalist country cut off from the rest of the world, and especially Europe. Turkey's democratic system and the rights of its non-Muslim minorities will be only secured if this fascist gang, and its mentality, fails.
23 May 2009, Saturday
ORHAN KEMAL CENGİZ

I agree with this Turk to some degree but unless I misunderstood I am not convinced at all that religion plays any major part in Ergenekons mentality unless it can be used to its advantage. Also In my opinion they cannot be classified as a "gang". More like an imperialistic sophisticated network.

They are a well lubricated clean lean machine carrying the torch of the original ideology behind panturkism (even without the pan) run by some of their best military leaders who have strong influence and control in the Turkish government that is already by its creation involved in a "deep State" Fascist condition with democracy as its front while capitalizing on its advantages.

They run impressive kangaroo courts in their controlled judicial system to fool the masses of "justice served" and Turkish democracy. I bet older retiree Ergenekons jump to volunteer to be an escape goat to get the special retirement plan after these trials.
"Grey Wolfs" is their civilian wing put to use as a propaganda tool, fresh recruitments for foot soldiers and some as triggermen for future target assassinations.

Our blood enemy is much stronger than it appears on the surface……………..Turks themselves fatally underestimate them.

Again these are just my opinions.
BTW, I support Turkey in EU……..………….That will be the biggest blow to the Ergenekons.

[Joseph]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Gotta love my man Bahceli! Not only is he very intelligent, he's also clearly level headed

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11732700.asp?gid=243

PM’s ’fascist’ comment draws wrath of MHP

ANKARA - Two main opposition parties yesterday criticized the prime minister for his description of the expulsion of ethnic identities as "fascist," with one nationalist party leader claiming the words were a "curse" on the country’s history.

"The mindset of ( the prime minister) is clear. It’s a typical example of collaborators who questioned the Lausanne Treaty, who signed the Sevres Treaty, who feel sorry for the Independence War success and who curse our history," said Devlet Bahçeli.
"What does he want to achieve by accusing Turkey? We would of course discuss what we did wrong but the duty of the prime minister is to respect the rights of Turkey," Deniz Baykal, leader of the Republican People’s Party, or CHP, told his lawmakers at the parliamentary group meeting.

Erdoğan, at a speech he held over the weekend, referred to the incidents of Sept 6 and 7 in 1955 in Istanbul when many Greek shops and houses were pillaged by crowds after false news reported that Turkey’s founder Mustafa Kemal Atatürk’s house in the Thessaloniki neighborhood of Greece was burnt down. After the riots, many Greeks who were born and lived in Istanbul had to leave the city.

"If he claims something he should do it in a clearer way so that we can discuss it," Baykal stated, arguing that Erdoğan’s purpose was to seem sympathetic to foreigners. "What he does is turn these very sad incidents, which were under very specific conditions, into a matter of accusations. I have never for example heard any intension of the prime minister to raise the issue of 60,000 Greek citizens of Turkish origin residing in Western Thrace who were expatriated [by Greece]," he said.

Bahçeli argued that the prime minister’s statement constituted "a black page" in Erdoğan’s political record.

"If he wants to rake up the past, he should start with those of neighboring countries and imperialistic powers," he said.

Arguing that Erdoğan was insulting Turkish people and its history, Bahçeli asked the prime minister to apologize.

[Joseph]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

BTW, I'm back. After a hiatus to get business back in order I'll try to contribute more to the site.