Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

[Alexandros]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?


Last year's Alevi rally in Sıhhiye Square in Ankara attracted 100,000 people.


Alevis plan huge rights rally in Istanbul

Thursday, September 24, 2009

BEHZAT MİSER

ANKARA – Radikal

Alevi groups plan to hold a massive rally in Istanbul in November to protest against the fact that religious education is still compulsory and that the Madımak Hotel, site of the Sivas massacre, is still not a museum

Alevi groups have decided to hold a massive rally in Istanbul on Nov. 8 because their rights and demands have not been addressed, according to leaders of the community.

Alevis, a liberal Muslim sect, have previously called for the elimination of compulsory religious-education classes, recognition of Alevi houses of worship, or cemevis, abolishment of the Religious Affairs Directorate and the transformation of the Madımak Hotel in Sivas, where 33 Alevi intellectuals were killed by a fundamentalist mob, into a museum.

Ali Kenanoğlu, deputy leader of the Alevi Bektaşi Federation and the head of the Hubnar Sultan Alevi Culture Association, said the rally in Istanbul would aim to attract up to a million people.

The Sunni dominance in the country is reflected by the fact that only mosques are recognized as Islamic houses of worship, while cemevis survive on local donations. The opposition to compulsory religious-education classes at high schools stems from the fact that until last year, the Alevi community was ignored in the curriculum. Last year, the Education Ministry included some passages about the community in textbooks but failed to placate Alevis.

Kenanoğlu said last year’s first-ever rally in Ankara’s Sıhhiye Square, which drew 100,000 demonstrators, has raised some eyebrows and forced the government to focus on problems faced by Alevis.

He also said the workshops organized by the government to resolve the Alevi community’s problems have failed to inspire confidence, because people who had no links to Alevis or Alevi organizations were introduced as experts.

“We want to turn our demands into a mass movement and create public awareness about Alevi issues,” he said, adding that the rally would attract a million people.

Pir Sultan Abdal Association President Fevzi Gümüş also said the government’s Alevi workshops had led nowhere, adding that the lack of any advancement on Alevi grievances left them with the sole option of holding a rally.

He said the government’s initiatives on Kurds, Alevis and Armenians may appear as positive developments, but noted that the country is still governed by the constitution drafted following the 1980 military coup.

Link

[Alexandros]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?




Alevi funeral prevented for fallen soldier

Sunday, September 13, 2009

ISTANBUL- Hürriyet Daily News

The state’s discrimination against followers of the Alevi faith was revealed in stark terms when the funeral of a fallen soldier was moved to a Sunni mosque upon alleged military orders, a newspaper reported Sunday.

The funeral rites of Murat Taş, who lost his life in a battle with the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, in the southeastern region of Eruh, was stopped mid-service at an Alevi cemevi, or house of gathering, in Istanbul and moved to a Sunni mosque, daily Taraf reported.

The move has angered Alevi elders. Taş’s last rites were concluded and he was buried at the Istanbul Ataköy Mosque after noon prayers, which were attended by top politicians and military leaders.

Taş’s family had gathered at their cemevi and all preparations were complete. The Alevi elder, Hüseyin Güzelgül, had delivered a final speech before the rites were to commence when they were interrupted. A lieutenant colonel and other soldiers arrived and engaged in an urgent conversation with Taş’s family, Taraf said. The body was then transferred to Ataköy.

The reason given to Güzelgül and the rest of the congregation was that the official ceremony was being held in Ataköy. The lieutenant colonel also told Güzelgül that the officer himself is an Alevi, Taraf reported.

“Close relatives of the martyr were present and perhaps due to their pain they didn’t even comprehend what happened,” said Güzelgül. “Out of respect for the relatives, we kept quiet or else we would not have permitted them to take the body,” he said.

“For years, they would refuse to perform rites for people in mosques if the person was an Alevi. That is one of the reasons why we set up cemevis in the first place,” said Güzelgül.

“Cemevis exist regardless of whether some wish to deny it. We will perform our rites here,” said Güzelgül. “They talk of an Alevi initiative. But if even the army does such things, the sincerity of any initiative comes into question.”

“We used to think that only certain religious people do such things. Now we see that officers do it, too. And to a fallen soldier, no less,” said Ali Balkız, president of the Alevi Bektaşi Federation.

“Cemevis are places of worship for Alevis. We will perform our rites here and our burials, too,” he said.

“This soldier of ours was born an Alevi, lived like an Alevi, was an Alevi soldier and an Alevi martyr. However, our great state did not let him be buried like an Alevi,” Balkız said.

What does 'minority' mean in Turkey?

In diverse Turkey, the word "minority" is a subject of ongoing sensitivity and debate. While the word in common usage can refer to distinct social groups whose numbers are relatively small, there are three legally established, statutory minorities in Turkey: Greeks, Armenians and xxxs.

This definition was made in the Lausanne Treaty in 1923 at the behest of Western powers and obligated the new Turkish Republic to acknowledge the special status of these groups. Some small groups, notably the Ancient Syriac Orthodox community, rejected the status at the time as divisive and remained outside the legal definition. The xxxish community also rejected portions of the Lausanne designation as a violation of social cohesion. Reflecting the sensibilities of the time, Lausanne regarded all Muslims of Turkey as a single “majority.” The Constitution, however, does not recognize religious or ethnic affiliation in defining citizenship. The word “Turk,” while regarded in some quarters as an ethnic label, does not under the law mean anything more than a person of Turkish citizenship.

In the cultural realm, however, the many groups that demographically or culturally may be described as minority in Turkey include the Alevi religious sect, the ethnic Kurdish population and many others, ranging from the "Laz" population which hails from the Black Sea region in Turkey's north, to a large Arab-speaking community in southeastern Turkey to the Roma (or Gypsy) population which has lived in Istanbul since Byzantine times. Some demographers will argue that Turkey has no “majority” population in the sense in which it is used in Europe or the United States and count more than 30 languages spoken in Turkey as evidence.

Periodically, calls are made within Turkey and without to expand the "Lausanne definition." To date, this suggestion has been rejected. Those rejecting the argument, including many within the groups that might be affected, who suggest expansion of special categories is an outdated notion but who do defend acknowledgement of the growing awareness of Turkey's many unique cultures and sources of identity. Use of the word "minority" in the TDN does not imply endorsement of any side in this ongoing debate.

Alevis

Alevism, a liberal sect of Islam, has practices distinct from those of Turkey’s Sunni majority. The Alevi house of worship is called a cemevi, while Sunnis worship in a mosque. Unlike most other Muslim practices, Alevi rituals are conducted mostly in Turkish and some in Kurdish. The ceremony features music and dance (semah). The two sects’ rules on fasting and prayer also differ. Alevism is also closely related to the Bektashi Sufi lineage in the sense that both venerate Hajji Bektash Wali (Turkish: Hacıbektaş Veli), a saint of the 13th century.

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[Mukuch]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

U.S. preparing reports about bad prison conditions? Unlawful killings? Tortures? About detainess that are not given right to see an attorney? Critizing the number of prisoners held as terrorists?

I'm in tears!

You must be. If for US it is some thing outstanding (Guantanamo), than in turkey it is just a norm, common practice like in any other barbaric 3rd worlds country.

[Mukuch]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

What do you think would happen if 500 Muslims flew into Athens, complete with a posse of robed mullahs and chanting dervishes, and proceeded unanounced to pray on the site of the Acropolis.

I didnt know that Athens is historical turkish homeland and Acropolis is a turkish Mosque of 5th century BC.

Bell admite that you are an idiot.

[may]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

U.S. Slams Turkey's Human Rights

http://middleeast.about.com/b/2009/02/26/us-slams-turkeys-human-rights.htm

Thursday February 26, 2009

The U.S. State Department released its 2008 Human Rights Report on Turkey Thursday. Don't be caught reading it in Turkey, or spreading it around there: you might be charged with "insulting Turkish identity"--an actual, actionable crime in that paradox of a nation.

The report makes for uncomfortable reading:

The government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, serious problems remained in some areas. During the year human rights organizations documented a rise in cases of torture, beatings, and abuse by security forces. Security forces committed unlawful killings; the number of arrests and prosecutions in these cases was low compared with the number of incidents, and convictions remained rare. Prison conditions remained poor, with chronic overcrowding and insufficient staff training. Law enforcement officials did not always provide detainees immediate access to attorneys as required by law.

Just as it claims it's a democracy where all people enjoy equal rights, Turkey also claims it has no political prisoners. That, too, is a fabrication by its blind-spotting Ministry of Justice, which has a convenient method of hiding political prisoners. It brands them terrorists. According to the State Department report, there were several thousand political prisoners, including leftists, rightists, and Islamists, and contended that the government does not distinguish them as such. The government claimed that alleged political prisoners were in fact charged with being members of, or assisting, terrorist organizations. According to the government, 2,232 convicts and 2,017 pretrial detainees were being held in prison on terrorism charges through September 2007.

As for press freedom and freedom of expression, the latest incident on the floor of the Turkish parliament, where a Kurdish legislator was vilified for speaking Kurdish (the television station carrying his speech cut him off once he stopped speaking Turkish) is revealing.

"The government, particularly the police and judiciary," the report states, "limited freedom of expression through the use of constitutional restrictions and numerous laws including articles of the penal code prohibiting insults to the government, the state, "Turkishness," Ataturk, or the institutions and symbols of the republic. Other laws also restricted speech, such as the Antiterror Law and laws governing the press and elections."
It's not East Germany in the 1970s, to be sure. But that's no consolation to those who'd rather see Turkey, ostensibly the largest Muslim democracy after Pakistan (Pakistan? a democracy?) live up to the name.

Read the full report:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt...eur/119109.htm

U.S. preparing reports about bad prison conditions? Unlawful killings? Tortures? About detainess that are not given right to see an attorney? Critizing the number of prisoners held as terrorists?

I'm in tears!

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

You complain about them not being turned into museums, and then you complain about the inevitable negative side-effects that turning them into museums bring.

....I'm sorry, I must have missed the "absolutely cannot 'worship' at a religious museum" rule in my Universal Museum Rules handbook.

[Anoush]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

No. It is not suitable for a supposed civilized nation to push the limits with such ridiculous, discriminatory laws. Secular country my ass, you pieces of shit.

How right you are... I couldn't agree with you more. I wish they only had discriminatory laws but they are worse... and now thanks to Obama turkey is directing the US anything and everything they want against Armenia and Artsakh. It's not just turkey's fault. It's US's fault who supposedly are democratic and moral... being on the side of denialist belligerent turkey.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

No. It is not suitable for a supposed civilized nation to push the limits with such ridiculous, discriminatory laws. Secular country my ass, you pieces of shit.

You complain about them not being turned into museums, and then you complain about the inevitable negative side-effects that turning them into museums bring.

As for those "Russian and Greek Orthodox Christian worshippers" - xxxx them and their three private planes. What do you think would happen if 500 Muslims flew into Athens, complete with a posse of robed mullahs and chanting dervishes, and proceeded unanounced to pray on the site of the Acropolis.

"The only way to reach the monastery is on foot" - I suppose through the eyes of those fat, lazy parasites, the 20 metre walk from the car park to the monastery does mean it is only reached "on foot". In the 1980s the only way to reach the monastery really was on foot - a hard hours trek up a winding trail, with a reward at the end that made it all worthwhile, a monastery that was breathtakingly evocative and free from tourist scum, entrance fees, and Turkish "restorations". Those "Russian and Greek Orthodox Christian worshippers" got the reward they deserved for their 20-metre hike to a Disneyfied tourist attraction.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

"It is not suitable for a civilized person to push the limits here."

No. It is not suitable for a supposed civilized nation to push the limits with such ridiculous, discriminatory laws. Secular country my ass, you pieces of shit.

[Alexandros]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Video of the disrupted event by the Trabzon musem official






Trabzon official takes wind out of tourists' rites

Monday, August 17, 2009

TRABZON – İhlas News Agency

Tourists from Russia and Greece are refused permission to light candles at a former monastery. The tourists are told religious ceremonies are banned at museums

Russian and Greek Orthodox Christian worshippers were shown that it is better to curse the darkness than light a candle over the weekend when Turkish officials interrupted their visit to the Sümela Monastery in northeastern Turkey.

Nilgün Yılmazer, museums director in the Black Sea province of Trabzon, proved the fallacy of the Chinese proverb when she blew out a candle lit by Russian parliamentarian Ivan Savidis and told him, “According to Turkish law, you are not allowed to perform a religious ceremony here.”

The visiting group of about 500 people from Greece and Russia, including Thessaloniki Gov. Panayotis Psomyadis, reacted against the intrusion and then continued to sing hymns and pray at the site.

The monastery stands at the foot of a steep cliff facing the Altındere valley in the region of Maçka in Trabzon. It sits at an elevation of 1,200 meters, overlooking much of the Altındere National Park. The only way to reach the monastery is on foot.

It was founded in A.D. 386 and functioned as one of the main monasteries of the Greek Orthodox world until 1923 when it was abandoned as much of the region’s Greek Orthodox population migrated to Greece during the population transfers between Turkey and Greece. The monastery is officially a museum and is one of the main tourist destinations in the region.

The group traveled to Trabzon on three private planes. After the prayers, the tourists left the monastery in groups.

“We came here to pray,” Psomyadis said. “There is no notice proclaiming that religious ceremonies are forbidden here. I’m from Trabzon. My ancestors and grandfathers grew up here. Besides that I’m Greek and also the Thessaloniki governor.”

Russian deputy Ivan Savidis said he could not understand why the Turkish officials had mistreated them, adding that the group wanted to return to Trabzon and visit the Sümela Monastery again in the future.

He said they respected Turkish traditions and laws and had not lit candles or taken photos after they were told not to. They were banned from entering the town center, he said, adding that he did not understand why such limitations were imposed.

Officials also banned a band accompanying the group from performing at Sümela and had collected the priests’ religious cloaks at the airport.

Savidis called on the Turkish government to fire the governor of Trabzon and said he would also write a letter to the Russian parliament about the way they were treated.

Savidis said he had supported the construction of a mosque in Moscow as a Russian parliamentarian and that the construction of mosques in Russia faced no bans.

“I did not oppose constructing mosques in Russia,” Savidis said. “You are Muslim and we are Christian. You have to have to respect me if you want me to respect to you.”

Savidis said he expected thanks from Turkish officials for bringing hundreds of tourists rather than “being insulted.”

Every country has its rules

Parliament Speaker Mehmet Ali Şahin, who is originally from the ruling Justice and Development Party, or AKP, responded to Savidis’ remarks and supported the officials’ reactions to the group.

"I saw the museum manager last night on television reminding them about our law and telling that they cannot hold a religious rite or ceremony there. We also have museums in Istanbul converted from historical religious places,” he said.

“It is forbidden to perform religious rites in these places even if the place belongs to Muslims. We cannot accept non-Muslim residents of Turkey or tourists misusing these places. Everybody has to obey the rules of the country they are visiting. It is not suitable for a civilized person to push the limits here."

Link