Balkan Turks

[Vogelgrippe]

I couldn't help but see that most topics here end up involving the plight of the Turks who were forced to immigrate to Anatolia in 1878, 1885, 1912-1913, and 1923-24. Given that between 25 and 30 percent of today's Turkish population has its roots in the lost European territories, the significance of their numbers becomes even more obvious. Add to this another significant percentage of refugee Turks from Crimea, and Russian Caucasus, the percentage probably goes up to 40 or 50 percent of Turkish population.

I therefore believe, not as a theory, but as a personal opinion, that this is the main reason why most of us Turks have difficulty in dealing with responsibility issues in Armenian sufferings. The initial reaction of most Turks with immigrant background is sth like: Even my grandfathers were not here (i.e. today's Turkey) when Ottomans committed these attrocities!

Well, this is obviously a totally different than the attitude of a Turk who currently lives in a house or land which had been 'abandoned' by Armenians and 'taken' by his great-grandparents. These Turks, obviously, are expected to behave and respond more sensitively to the reactions of Armenians, since their ancestors were very probably involved in their plights.

My great-grandparents were also refugees from Ohrid (Manastir)-Macedonia and Kavala-Greece. Obviously, they brought with them not only few material possessions, but also their memories, longings, despair, and disbelief about what had happened. Some of them, no doubt, devoted themselves to the protection of Anatolia which they saw as the final remaining piece of Turkish homeland. Some of them, sick and tired of the never-ending soldier life, wanted to remain in their homes, accepting to live as minorities. Some of them, carrying forever the pain of leaving their birthplaces, were even more sensitive to the pains of Greeks and Armenians, who also did not want to leave their birthplaces. My maternal great-grandfather, for example, used his high officer's rank to be sent to WW1 front in Polish Galicia, because he heard that 'bad things were done to 'Armenians who did not have guns!' (his own words).

As I always said on this forum, the sum of all individual attrocities to Armenians may or may not add up to constitute a genocide, and it is my individual opinion that it does. However, it does not automatically follow that every Turk can be held responsible to the same degree, and this is mainly because of the points I summarized above.

[Joseph]

I couldn't help but see that most topics here end up involving the plight of the Turks who were forced to immigrate to Anatolia in 1878, 1885, 1912-1913, and 1923-24. Given that between 25 and 30 percent of today's Turkish population has its roots in the lost European territories, the significance of their numbers becomes even more obvious. Add to this another significant percentage of refugee Turks from Crimea, and Russian Caucasus, the percentage probably goes up to 40 or 50 percent of Turkish population.

I therefore believe, not as a theory, but as a personal opinion, that this is the main reason why most of us Turks have difficulty in dealing with responsibility issues in Armenian sufferings. The initial reaction of most Turks with immigrant background is sth like: Even my grandfathers were not here (i.e. today's Turkey) when Ottomans committed these attrocities!

Well, this is obviously a totally different than the attitude of a Turk who currently lives in a house or land which had been 'abandoned' by Armenians and 'taken' by his great-grandparents. These Turks, obviously, are expected to behave and respond more sensitively to the reactions of Armenians, since their ancestors were very probably involved in their plights.

My great-grandparents were also refugees from Ohrid (Manastir)-Macedonia and Kavala-Greece. Obviously, they brought with them not only few material possessions, but also their memories, longings, despair, and disbelief about what had happened. Some of them, no doubt, devoted themselves to the protection of Anatolia which they saw as the final remaining piece of Turkish homeland. Some of them, sick and tired of the never-ending soldier life, wanted to remain in their homes, accepting to live as minorities. Some of them, carrying forever the pain of leaving their birthplaces, were even more sensitive to the pains of Greeks and Armenians, who also did not want to leave their birthplaces. My maternal great-grandfather, for example, used his high officer's rank to be sent to WW1 front in Polish Galicia, because he heard that 'bad things were done to 'Armenians who did not have guns!' (his own words).

As I always said on this forum, the sum of all individual attrocities to Armenians may or may not add up to constitute a genocide, and it is my individual opinion that it does. However, it does not automatically follow that every Turk can be held responsible to the same degree, and this is mainly because of the points I summarized above.

Vogelgrippe, that makes a lot of sense. Many Turks I have met often tell about their family roots from Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia, etc and certainly you could see why many, while understanding the plight of Armenians, Anatolian Greek, Assyrians, had their own grievances. I also think that the what happend to Balkan and Crimean Turks galvanized the rest of the Muslim population in Anatolia towards revenge. Armenians, Anatolian Greeks, Assyrians probably became scapegoats from the 1870's onwards.

[TurQ]

I am quite with you and Vogel.

I repeated lots of time that avarage Armenian became the scapegoat for what had happened in Balkans and Caucusia and the irrisponsible/separatist activitives of Tashnak and Hinjak.
And also as I said before I am 100% for the investigation of those responsible who had taken the properties of Armenians and get rich. I do not think that it should be that hard to find out the big ones, cause they probably inherited their wealth.

Vogelgrippe, that makes a lot of sense. Many Turks I have met often tell about their family roots from Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia, etc and certainly you could see why many, while understanding the plight of Armenians, Anatolian Greek, Assyrians, had their own grievances. I also think that the what happend to Balkan and Crimean Turks galvanized the rest of the Muslim population in Anatolia towards revenge. Armenians, Anatolian Greeks, Assyrians probably became scapegoats from the 1870's onwards.

[Joseph]

I am quite with you and Vogel.

I repeated lots of time that avarage Armenian became the scapegoat for what had happened in Balkans and Caucusia and the irrisponsible/separatist activitives of Tashnak and Hinjak.
And also as I said before I am 100% for the investigation of those responsible who had taken the properties of Armenians and get rich. I do not think that it should be that hard to find out the big ones, cause they probably inherited their wealth.

There is one area where we seem to disagree and that is the origin, appeal, and overall activity of the Dashnak and Hunchaks and their role in Anatolia. These groups were more of a reaction to growing oppresion of the Armenian population in Anatolia and were first and foremost trying to organize Armenians to protect themselves mostly from Kurdish brigands. It is often over stated how much political support and power they had or continue to have over Armenians. From the about the later 1870's on, life for the average Armenian became almost unbearable as the Ottoman Empire began it's period of steepest decline and as we all agree, Armenians were certainly scapegoated and massacred, especially in the 1890's and 1909(this is prior to the Genocide of course). And one should not forget that the Dashnaks were at one time part of the CUP, believed in the liberalization of the Empire and it wasn't until the genocide that they revised their political views.

[TurQ]

Facts are not that important for the avarage person.
You are right about the land dispute that started in mid 19th century between Kurdish nomads and Armenian farmers. The government settled those nomadic Kurds to the lands that Armenians use for farming etc.
But we should also take it to consideration that refugees were pouring into Anatolia. With the decreased overall wealth, and refugees, this problem became more complicated. It is also a fact that these events affecting everybody not only the expense of Armenians.
For example my great grand dad was a very rich person before he joined to the Army marching to Sarikamish. He was a mong the few thousand that survived those events. When he came back 6 years later everything was gone. He became a shephard. I know Tashnaks at those times are pretty much diverse. I would like to read more on Dashnak and CUP alliance, thats really interesting.

Anyways, Turkish nationalism was newly born at those times as an ideology among the elite, and obviously Turkish and Armenian nationalisms fed each other and grew rapidly and adversely against each other.

There is one area where we seem to disagree and that is the origin, appeal, and overall activity of the Dashnak and Hunchaks and their role in Anatolia. These groups were more of a reaction to growing oppresion of the Armenian population in Anatolia and were first and foremost trying to organize Armenians to protect temsleves mostly from Kurdish brigands. It is often over stated how much political support and power they had or continue to have over Armenians. From the about the later 1870's on, life for the average Armenian became almost unbearable as the Ottoman Empire began it's period of steepest decline and as we all agree, Armenians were certainly scapegoated and massacred, especially in the 1890's and 1909(this is prior to the Genocide of course). And one should not forget that the Dashnaks were at one time part of the CUP, beleived in the liberalization of the Empire and it wasn't until the genocide that they revised their political views.

[phantom]

Joseph, you certainly hit the nail on the head with that last post.

TurQ, true to form, your message can be boiled down to the tiresome party line of "yes, it was a tragic time for all, not just Armenians." Your grandad may have lost everything due to the economic devastation of the country after WWI, but our ancestors lost everything, because it was forcefully taken from them WITHOUT any justification, not that there can be any justification for Genocide anyway. Our ancestors were stabbed in the back by the very leaders that had promised them reforms, who turned around and planned and carried out an extermination instead. This last part I know you understand, because you've said already that you believe the CUP was guilty of Genocide.

[TurQ]

Phantom
you can boil it to that, if you would try to find calf under each bull.

Our property hasnt gone due to economic devastation, it was the war.
So if you would try to say that we are not allowed to talk about our own family history because it would mean they are nothing but excuses, thats fine. Make it a forum rule.
My ancestors did nothing wrong to yours, and it is not fair and it is not right to put the blame to me or to other avarage Turks who have nothing todo with CUP core.

I dont wanna quarrel with you for nonsense, but when you say your ancestors stabbed in the back when they were promised rights, you refer to avarage Armenian or Tashnak/Hinjak?

I told you my opnion about CUP, but when Armenians say You guys were OK and confortable and killed Armenians for your Pan-Turanic dreams, our blood naturally boils. And this kind of approach is not a starter for us.

If there cant be any justification for genocide, why is it that problem to learn about fedayin, tashnak activity in pre-1915 period?
You know Yektan Turkyilmaz, Turkish PHD student from Duke is studying on this very topic. Turkish and Armenian nationalistic movements and parties in that period. I am curiously waiting for him to finish his PHD. You know this is in fact very sensitive issue, at first he was praised by Diaspora(I have folowed the praise news about this from armenian resources probably was posted here as well). But when he started his research and became more clear, he was arrested and put into prison. If there were no concerns of pre-1915 activities, why was this reaction? Is he also a CUP apologist?

Yahu guzel kardesim uzerime niye geliyorsun boyle? hem bizi hem onlari taniyan sadece siz turkiye ermenileri var. her seferinde soykirim andi icirmeye niye calisiyorsun ki? Iki millet arasinda birseyler baslatilicaksa bunun oncusu olabilicek en onemli grub sizsiniz. Don dolas ayni konularin irdele des, bu bir yere goturmiyecek. Belki bunun yeri degil ama en azindan burada fikir acici arayi bulucu neler yapilir, somut seyler. En azindan bukonuyu dusunen birseyler yapmak isteyen yurt disindaki Turkler icin yardimci olur.

Joseph, you certainly hit the nail on the head with that last post.

TurQ, true to form, your message can be boiled down to the tiresome party line of "yes, it was a tragic time for all, not just Armenians." Your grandad may have lost everything due to the economic devastation of the country after WWI, but our ancestors lost everything, because it was forcefully taken from them WITHOUT any justification, not that there can be any justification for Genocide anyway. Our ancestors were stabbed in the back by the very leaders that had promised them reforms, who turned around and planned and carried out an extermination instead. This last part I know you understand, because you've said already that you believe the CUP was guilty of Genocide.

[TurQ]

Dont get me wrong on this question.
Did you greatgrand dad had been mistreated while he was serving in Ottoman army? Was he in Dardanelles?

This kinds of thing puts us in the middle. I can not say much. There were Armenians as spies in intelligence agency who served to Ottomans during British and French occupation. Since They were Armenians, British didnt suspect them..
I am just sorry for those average Armenians.

Joseph, you certainly hit the nail on the head with that last post.
TurQ, true to form, your message can be boiled down to the tiresome party line of "yes, it was a tragic time for all, not just Armenians." Your grandad may have lost everything due to the economic devastation of the country after WWI, but our ancestors lost everything, because it was forcefully taken from them WITHOUT any justification, not that there can be any justification for Genocide anyway. Our ancestors were stabbed in the back by the very leaders that had promised them reforms, who turned around and planned and carried out an extermination instead. This last part I know you understand, because you've said already that you believe the CUP was guilty of Genocide.

[1.5 million]

So TurQ - I supose if you were a German you would also say - "we didn't do it - it was those damn Nazis" - pft...particualrly when you Turks continue to defend your Nazis by blaming the victims. FU is all I have to say - because you are guilty - guilty of defending mass murderers, gulty of turning a blind eye toward the racism and guilt of your nation and its complicity on one of the greatest crimes against humanity ever to occur - and you are particularly guilty of continuing to perpetuate the lies and insulting and denigrating my people in doing so.

[ScythianVizier]

So TurQ - I supose if you were a German you would also say - "we didn't do it - it was those damn Nazis" - pft...particualrly when you Turks continue to defend your Nazis by blaming the victims. FU is all I have to say - because you are guilty - guilty of defending mass murderers, gulty of turning a blind eye toward the racism and guilt of your nation and its complicity on one of the greatest crimes against humanity ever to occur - and you are particularly guilty of continuing to perpetuate the lies and insulting and denigrating my people in doing so.

I dont think that TurQ tries to blame the Armenian victims. However, It seems to me as if the horrifiying ordeal that the muslim Ottomans experienced as a consequence of imperialistic, racist and discriminitive policies of the Western nations (Christians I must say) is not appropriately tackled, if not underestimated. When almost half of the population of Anatolia is filled with migrants seeking food and shelter, one could easily witness extreme policies and politicians, particularly if that country was the place at where there was no fund left to organize the state institutions, if that country was the last peasant-military establishment of the world which couldnt compete with the capitalist powers, and if that country was the country which failed to establish some western style (primitive) democracies constructed upon the surplus values extracted from the colonized countries and nations with the help of barbarism, racism, colonism, and enslavement, and finally if that country was not as civilized as the British Empire, which killed some 20-29 million Indians in India in order to boost some trade surplus and in order to provide funds for her Queen's farewell party (to her crown).