Balkan Turks

[Hovik]

Dont get me wrong on this question.
Did you greatgrand dad had been mistreated while he was serving in Ottoman army? Was he in Dardanelles?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, so I hope you don't mind me answering. My great great grand dad wasn't in the Ottoman Army. He did however build one of the largest transport companies in the Ottoman Empire. They shipped goods to Europe and Asia, and conducted tours and pilgrimages. He was very successful, but when his 7 year old son was caught hiding in a (friendly) Turkish house from the organized police killing squads who came into their town to "round up the male occupants" and was killed for doing so by having his hands chopped off, my great great grandfather was shot to death... As horrible a situtation i'm sure it was - it could have been much worse, a bullet must have been a lot easier to take than having your hands chopped off and slowly bleeding to death right?

Now, back to the Ottoman Army. Since we have numerous non-Turk non-Armenian eyewitness accounts, it is well established that for whatever reason Armenians who were already serving in the Ottoman Army were stripped of their arms and organized into labor battalions. Once this happened it was only a matter of time until they were killed in a very organized fashion. Many were forced to dig holes, then stand in front of them. They were then shot and the work to bury them had already been 50% completed by the victims! very efficient! very well planned! Armenian males who were not in the Ottoman Army were often drafted and then the above process would begin.

If asked (although I would expect that anyone who has read a book or two about the Genocide knows at least the basic fact of the military draft killings) I will do my best to dig up a few of the many sources. But I haven't read anything that suggests that Armenian men were treated as anything but sheep being led to slaughter by the Ottoman Army.

[TurQ]

Hovik
I am sorry what had happened to your family. Curses to those who cut that kid's hands. Curses to CUP's policies that pushed whole Armenian population to this position and to the Tashnak side. It is hard to believe that a successful businessman would prefer or be sympathetic to seperatism. I believe he wsa the target beause he was a prominent and known rich person.
I have also heard that one of the worst events happened in Harput/Elazig region.

I know about the Labour battallions. Vehip Pasha, the commander of the 3rd army in the East, executed those officers who were responsible of killing Armenian soldiers in Labour Batalions. I think that event took place in Elazig or Erzinjan in 1915.
This was the situation in East, I am talking about the Labour batallion. As I understand(may be I am wrong) Phantom's great granddad served in West. I was wondering about his situation in the army in West.
I know Armenian officers who were awared madal of honour as heros after the war in Dardanelles.I told you there were Armenian officers in intelligence agency working against Brits and French. This makes me think that events in the army are not uniform. Thats why I was wondering about Phantom's great grand dad..

My great grand dad was in army in 1914. He also witnessed the events happened in the troops where there were Armenian reserve officers and they were tipping the Fedayin and Tashnak, and so fedayins poison the food of Ottoman soldiers. He says "there was a period of time each and every morning we found the corpses of hundreds of soldiers in their tents poisoned to death".

I know the question wasn't directed at me, so I hope you don't mind me answering. My great great grand dad wasn't in the Ottoman Army. He did however build one of the largest transport companies in the Ottoman Empire. They shipped goods to Europe and Asia, and conducted tours and pilgrimages. He was very successful, but when his 7 year old son was caught hiding in a (friendly) Turkish house from the organized police killing squads who came into their town to "round up the male occupants" and was killed for doing so by having his hands chopped off, my great great grandfather was shot to death... As horrible a situtation i'm sure it was - it could have been much worse, a bullet must have been a lot easier to take than having your hands chopped off and slowly bleeding to death right?

Now, back to the Ottoman Army. Since we have numerous non-Turk non-Armenian eyewitness accounts, it is well established that for whatever reason Armenians who were already serving in the Ottoman Army were stripped of their arms and organized into labor battalions. Once this happened it was only a matter of time until they were killed in a very organized fashion. Many were forced to dig holes, then stand in front of them. They were then shot and the work to bury them had already been 50% completed by the victims! very efficient! very well planned! Armenian males who were not in the Ottoman Army were often drafted and then the above process would begin.

If asked (although I would expect that anyone who has read a book or two about the Genocide knows at least the basic fact of the military draft killings) I will do my best to dig up a few of the many sources. But I haven't read anything that suggests that Armenian men were treated as anything but sheep being led to slaughter by the Ottoman Army.

[Joseph]

Hovik
I am sorry what had happened to your family. Curses to those who cut that kid's hands. Curses to CUP's policies that pushed whole Armenian population to this position and to the Tashnak side. It is hard to believe that a successful businessman would prefer or be sympathetic to seperatism. I believe he wsa the target beause he was a prominent and known rich person.
I have also heard that one of the worst events happened in Harput/Elazig region.

I know about the Labour battallions. Vehip Pasha, the commander of the 3rd army in the East, executed those officers who were responsible of killing Armenian soldiers in Labour Batalions. I think that event took place in Elazig or Erzinjan in 1915.
This was the situation in East, I am talking about the Labour batallion. As I understand(may be I am wrong) Phantom's great granddad served in West. I was wondering about his situation in the army in West.
I know Armenian officers who were awared madal of honour as heros after the war in Dardanelles.I told you there were Armenian officers in intelligence agency working against Brits and French. This makes me think that events in the army are not uniform. Thats why I was wondering about Phantom's great grand dad..

My great grand dad was in army in 1914. He also witnessed the events happened in the troops where there were Armenian reserve officers and they were tipping the Fedayin and Tashnak, and so fedayins poison the food of Ottoman soldiers. He says "there was a period of time each and every morning we found the corpses of hundreds of soldiers in their tents poisoned to death".

I think the interesting thing and tragically ironic piece of history that we should all try to read about is the fact that Enver Pasha was saved from either death or Russian captivity at Sarikimish by an Armenian soldier in the Turkish army. Man, if that guy had only been a coward, maybe things would have been a lot different for Armenians and Turks.

[phantom]

Hovik
I am sorry what had happened to your family. Curses to those who cut that kid's hands. Curses to CUP's policies that pushed whole Armenian population to this position and to the Tashnak side. It is hard to believe that a successful businessman would prefer or be sympathetic to seperatism. I believe he wsa the target beause he was a prominent and known rich person.
I have also heard that one of the worst events happened in Harput/Elazig region.

I know about the Labour battallions. Vehip Pasha, the commander of the 3rd army in the East, executed those officers who were responsible of killing Armenian soldiers in Labour Batalions. I think that event took place in Elazig or Erzinjan in 1915.
This was the situation in East, I am talking about the Labour batallion. As I understand(may be I am wrong) Phantom's great granddad served in West. I was wondering about his situation in the army in West.
I know Armenian officers who were awared madal of honour as heros after the war in Dardanelles.I told you there were Armenian officers in intelligence agency working against Brits and French. This makes me think that events in the army are not uniform. Thats why I was wondering about Phantom's great grand dad..

My great grand dad was in army in 1914. He also witnessed the events happened in the troops where there were Armenian reserve officers and they were tipping the Fedayin and Tashnak, and so fedayins poison the food of Ottoman soldiers. He says "there was a period of time each and every morning we found the corpses of hundreds of soldiers in their tents poisoned to death".

TurQ, no offense to your granddad, I'm sure he probably believed what he told you about the "poisoning" of Turkish troops by Armenians traitors. But to me, this sounds like another hateful conspiracy theory planted into the minds of emotional and impressionable young Turkish soldiers to help foment hate against the victim. Soldiers were dying every day from flu, typhoid, tuburculosis, and pneumonia. How convenient to blame it on "poisoning" by Armenians. Again, I'm not saying your granddad didn't actually believe this story, but I am saying that at the very least, he was just another guy who dooped into hating the victim.

As for my great-granddad. He was in Istanbul at the time, and I don't know if he was mistreated or not. What I do know is that he was a high-ranking military official, so probably he was not mistreated. Plus, I also know that he was a very wealthy man with 12 children, 6 of whom died serving in the Turkish military. My grandfather was the youngest of those 12 children.

[TurQ]

Phantom

Thanks for the info about your great grand dad,I greatly appriciate it. I believe these kind of information has great importance and I believe every Turk should know these. I am greatful people like your great granddad.

So as I understand Armenians were in the army in all of the ranks.
Have your 6 great uncles been killed by enemies or by Ottoman soldiers when they were in the army?


My Great Grand dad had Armenian friends before and after the war. Until the day he passed away(in 50s) he had close family friends in Malatya. They were both muslim and christian Armenians. My dad remembers one of them which he recalls as the Kalayji dayi. I dont think hate scenario fits in his case. He conveys what he actually have seen in his own eyes. You can easily identify if somebody has died from poisoning or from a sickness. And hundreds of soldiers can not die while they sleep ok and cant wake up in hundreds. I am not saying all the Armenian soldiers and officiers did that, and obviously not, your family is atl east proof of that.

TurQ, no offense to your granddad, I'm sure he probably believed what he told you about the "poisoning" of Turkish troops by Armenians traitors. But to me, this sounds like another hateful conspiracy theory planted into the minds of emotional and impressionable young Turkish soldiers to help foment hate against the victim. Soldiers were dying every day from flu, typhoid, tuburculosis, and pneumonia. How convenient to blame it on "poisoning" by Armenians. Again, I'm not saying your granddad didn't actually believe this story, but I am saying that at the very least, he was just another guy who dooped into hating the victim.

As for my great-granddad. He was in Istanbul at the time, and I don't know if he was mistreated or not. What I do know is that he was a high-ranking military official, so probably he was not mistreated. Plus, I also know that he was a very wealthy man with 12 children, 6 of whom died serving in the Turkish military. My grandfather was the youngest of those 12 children.

[phantom]

Phantom

Thanks for the info about your great grand dad,I greatly appriciate it. I believe these kind of information has great importance and I believe every Turk should know these. I am greatful people like your great granddad.

So as I understand Armenians were in the army in all of the ranks.
Have your 6 great uncles been killed by enemies or by Ottoman soldiers when they were in the army?


My Great Grand dad had Armenian friends before and after the war. Until the day he passed away(in 50s) he had close family friends in Malatya. They were both muslim and christian Armenians. My dad remembers one of them which he recalls as the Kalayji dayi. I dont think hate scenario fits in his case. He conveys what he actually have seen in his own eyes. You can easily identify if somebody has died from poisoning or from a sickness. And hundreds of soldiers can not die while they sleep ok and cant wake up in hundreds. I am not saying all the Armenian soldiers and officiers did that, and obviously not, your family is atl east proof of that.

TurQ, I don't know how my grandfathers brothers died. I will ask my dad. In fact, there's a great deal I don't know about my great-grandfather and his children, that I should probably find out.

As for the poisoning, did your father see an Armenian soldier put poison in the food of the Turkish soldiers? Were any Armenian soldiers tried and convicted for such an act? Are you sure that only the Turkish soldiers were dying and not the Armenian ones too? Can you see how most of us are quite skeptical about these conspiracy theories, especially after knowing how so many people have been harmed by false Turkish conspiracy theories: think about the Istanbul pogroms of the 50s and 60s, all based on false conspiracy theories that were later revealed to be lies. Think of the false propoganda that the CUP made in order to justify its attacks on the Armenian villages near the Russian border. Turkish authorities have a historical pattern of inciting ethnic hatred by planting false conspiracy theories against their victims.

[1.5 million]

TurQ, I don't know how my grandfathers brothers died. I will ask my dad. In fact, there's a great deal I don't know about my great-grandfather and his children, that I should probably find out.

As for the poisoning, did your father see an Armenian soldier put poison in the food of the Turkish soldiers? Were any Armenian soldiers tried and convicted for such an act? Are you sure that only the Turkish soldiers were dying and not the Armenian ones too? Can you see how most of us are quite skeptical about these conspiracy theories, especially after knowing how so many people have been harmed by false Turkish conspiracy theories: think about the Istanbul pogroms of the 50s and 60s, all based on false conspiracy theories that were later revealed to be lies. Think of the false propoganda that the CUP made in order to justify its attacks on the Armenian villages near the Russian border. Turkish authorities have a historical pattern of inciting ethnic hatred by planting false conspiracy theories against their victims.

I've already expressed a great deal of skeptism concerning this claim of alleged poisoning. I mean come on now - I don't believe it for a second - think about it - for one it would be suicide. For another - why would they really do it? Some kind of spontaneous (isolated) hit agaisnt the Turks or are we suggesting this was part of some grand plan (Dashanks again?) to poison the Turkish army? Its BS IMO. And I subscribe to your explanation phantom. Again it was likely CUP commmisars rousing up hatred against the Armenains - blaming them for the various deaths - just as these exaggerated charges of Armenian 5th colomn activity behind Turkish lines - it is mostly a concocted story.

[TurQ]

Phantom

I dont think poisoning is a great deal. Andranik Pasha even fought on Russian side during Balkan wars in Edirne and Bulgaria(1911/12). His followers or such Armenian rebels could do this kind of offensive pretty much easily. I think they could easily risk their lives for it, thats why they were called "fedayin" by Armenians(meaning the self sacrificers). Ottoman bank in KArakoy was occupied for example in 1890s by Dashnak followers in Istanbul, I think thats alot more suicidal. This particular poisoning story comes directly from my great grand dad. he experienced that event in person, it was not heard by him. And my dad says, when my great granddad used to tell this event his face and voice was changing. My dad says, he could feel the horror from his voice.

These poisoning events had happened in the troops where the Armenian reserve officers did exist. I dont know about any military investigations on this, and I dont have more resources to dig into it unfortunetly. This and such events can only be studied decendants of such military personell.

I believe this kind of tiny stories(yours or mine it's not important) could help us to understand better about those events. I personally wished you would have written an essay about your great grand dad, and your great uncles about their lives, their military experience in Ottoman army. If such stories could be published in Turkish I guarantee you that the barriers of mistrust can be detroyed easily.

I dont like to make big talks, but tell about your officer ancestors, who have fallen for Ottoman army to fellow Turks here, I guarantee you there will be no Turk who wont appriciate your ancestors or admire their sacrifice.
Again I guarantee you there will be no Turk here who would say to Hovik "What had happened to your ancestors was ok, and justifyable, and happy about it".


I understand the skepticism. For the 1955 events I have posted about it a while ago in this page.

http://www.armeniangenocide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1295&page=3

TurQ, I don't know how my grandfathers brothers died. I will ask my dad. In fact, there's a great deal I don't know about my great-grandfather and his children, that I should probably find out.

As for the poisoning, did your father see an Armenian soldier put poison in the food of the Turkish soldiers? Were any Armenian soldiers tried and convicted for such an act? Are you sure that only the Turkish soldiers were dying and not the Armenian ones too? Can you see how most of us are quite skeptical about these conspiracy theories, especially after knowing how so many people have been harmed by false Turkish conspiracy theories: think about the Istanbul pogroms of the 50s and 60s, all based on false conspiracy theories that were later revealed to be lies. Think of the false propoganda that the CUP made in order to justify its attacks on the Armenian villages near the Russian border. Turkish authorities have a historical pattern of inciting ethnic hatred by planting false conspiracy theories against their victims.

[TurQ]

I dont know about military point of view by poisoning. But at that time that particular troops were getting ready for the Russian offensive in fall 1914. I dont know about the location but my dad says it could be somewhere between Erzinjan and Erzurum. And at those time and location it would very well woud make a sense(militarily speaking).

I've already expressed a great deal of skeptism concerning this claim of alleged poisoning. I mean come on now - I don't believe it for a second - think about it - for one it would be suicide. For another - why would they really do it? Some kind of spontaneous (isolated) hit agaisnt the Turks or are we suggesting this was part of some grand plan (Dashanks again?) to poison the Turkish army? Its BS IMO. And I subscribe to your explanation phantom. Again it was likely CUP commmisars rousing up hatred against the Armenains - blaming them for the various deaths - just as these exaggerated charges of Armenian 5th colomn activity behind Turkish lines - it is mostly a concocted story.

[Gavur]

How did your grandad survive being frozen plus the "poisoning"?