Balkan Turks

[1.5 million]

I dont know about military point of view by poisoning. But at that time that particular troops were getting ready for the Russian offensive in fall 1914. I dont know about the location but my dad says it could be somewhere between Erzinjan and Erzurum. And at those time and location it would very well woud make a sense(militarily speaking).

There ws no Russian offensive in the fall of 1914...perhaps your Grandfather was mistaken...

[1.5 million]

Perhaps this was the incident that was relayed to your grandfather who misrembered it as happening to him during some imagined Russian Offensive in 1914:

1/5/1915 The Turkish government publicly charges that Armenian bakers in the army bakeries of Sivas were poisoning the bread of the Turkish forces. The bakers are cruelly beaten, despite the fact that a group of doctors prove the charge to be false by examining the bread and even eating it. As this marks an attempt on the part of the government to incite massacre, the government does not rescind the charge.


Perhaps your grandfather was trying to justify to himself and forget the real memories of what he was up to during this period:

10/17/1914 Bands of chetes begin looting, violating women and children, and large-scale murdering in Erzerum Province

10/17/1914 Leaders of the Armenian nationalist Dashnak party organization in Erzerum are arrested.

11/14/1914 The village of Otsni in Erzerum Province is attacked at night by chete forces. The local Armenian priest and many other Armenians are killed. Every house is looted. The first attacks by chete forces on the Armenian villages of Erzerum are reported.

11/18/1914 The Jihad Proclamation is read in all the provinces of the Ottoman Empire.

11/19/1914 Mass executions of Armenian soldiers in the Turkish army takes place in various public squares for the purpose of terrorizing the Armenians, while with voluntary contributions, Armenians were building several hospitals for the use of the Turkish army through the Red Crescent Society.

11/29/1914 Chete forces consisting of intentionally released convicts are armed by the government in Van Province. In the region of Van requisitions take the form of open robbery and looting.

11/30/1914 Having completed his job organizing the Special Organization in Artvin, Behaeddin Shakir is instructed to move on to Trebizond.

11/30/1914 The central command of the Special Organization sends instruction for supplying the chete bands with money, vehicles, and others equipment.

12/1/1914 The beginning of a series of isolated murders to terrorize the Armenian population.

12/1/1914 Reports reach Constantinople that raids by irregular chete forces on the Armenian villages of Erzerum Province are continuing.

12/5/1914 Reports continue reaching Constantinople that chete raids on the Armenian villages of Erzerum Province are continuing.

12/6/1914 Armenians are put to use as porters of army supplies in Erzerum, Trebizond, and Sivas Provinces under the worst of cold winter conditions for the purpose of letting them die of overwork and illness.

12/14/1914 The Turkish Cabinet charges Enver with command of the offensive on the Caucasian front and assigns Talaat the position of Acting Minister of War while retaining his position as Minister of the Interior.

12/22/1914 An attack by the Ottoman Third Army corps opens the Battle of Sarikamish on the Caucasian Front.

12/23/1914 Foreign missionaries abandon the interior of Turkey as crosses on missions are broken by the Turks and replaced by crescents.

12/31/1914 Sahag Odabashian, the newly appointed Prelate of Erzinjan, while traveling from Constantinople via Sivas to Erzinjan, where he was to be installed in office, is slain in the village of Kanli-Tash, near Shabin-Karahisar, by six chetes organized by Ahmed Muammer, the governor-general of Sivas Province

A busy man your grandfather must have been...

[TurQ]

army was getting ready for the offensive. I didnt say the army was fightng. My great dad survived because he left the army right before the sarikamis battle. He was among the few thousands of that army who had survived.
That particular event that i was talking about did not happen during the battle. The battle was in Kars/Sarikamis, and not in Erzinjan or Erzurum.

There ws no Russian offensive in the fall of 1914...perhaps your Grandfather was mistaken...

[TurQ]

You read from books, I am telling what he saw.
You dont have to believe it. Not everything has been written down. And not everything is 100% known by Armenians.

This chronological events somehow skipped the attacks of Armenian forces to Kars border villages in late fall 1914. Since this is not written here, it did not happen?

Perhaps this was the incident that was relayed to your grandfather who misrembered it as happening to him during some imagined Russian Offensive in 1914:

1/5/1915 The Turkish government publicly charges that Armenian bakers in the army bakeries of Sivas were poisoning the bread of the Turkish forces. The bakers are cruelly beaten, despite the fact that a group of doctors prove the charge to be false by examining the bread and even eating it. As this marks an attempt on the part of the government to incite massacre, the government does not rescind the charge.


Perhaps your grandfather was trying to justify to himself and forget the real memories of what he was up to during this period:

10/17/1914 Bands of chetes begin looting, violating women and children, and large-scale murdering in Erzerum Province

10/17/1914 Leaders of the Armenian nationalist Dashnak party organization in Erzerum are arrested.

11/14/1914 The village of Otsni in Erzerum Province is attacked at night by chete forces. The local Armenian priest and many other Armenians are killed. Every house is looted. The first attacks by chete forces on the Armenian villages of Erzerum are reported.

11/18/1914 The Jihad Proclamation is read in all the provinces of the Ottoman Empire.

11/19/1914 Mass executions of Armenian soldiers in the Turkish army takes place in various public squares for the purpose of terrorizing the Armenians, while with voluntary contributions, Armenians were building several hospitals for the use of the Turkish army through the Red Crescent Society.

11/29/1914 Chete forces consisting of intentionally released convicts are armed by the government in Van Province. In the region of Van requisitions take the form of open robbery and looting.

11/30/1914 Having completed his job organizing the Special Organization in Artvin, Behaeddin Shakir is instructed to move on to Trebizond.

11/30/1914 The central command of the Special Organization sends instruction for supplying the chete bands with money, vehicles, and others equipment.

12/1/1914 The beginning of a series of isolated murders to terrorize the Armenian population.

12/1/1914 Reports reach Constantinople that raids by irregular chete forces on the Armenian villages of Erzerum Province are continuing.

12/5/1914 Reports continue reaching Constantinople that chete raids on the Armenian villages of Erzerum Province are continuing.

12/6/1914 Armenians are put to use as porters of army supplies in Erzerum, Trebizond, and Sivas Provinces under the worst of cold winter conditions for the purpose of letting them die of overwork and illness.

12/14/1914 The Turkish Cabinet charges Enver with command of the offensive on the Caucasian front and assigns Talaat the position of Acting Minister of War while retaining his position as Minister of the Interior.

12/22/1914 An attack by the Ottoman Third Army corps opens the Battle of Sarikamish on the Caucasian Front.

12/23/1914 Foreign missionaries abandon the interior of Turkey as crosses on missions are broken by the Turks and replaced by crescents.

12/31/1914 Sahag Odabashian, the newly appointed Prelate of Erzinjan, while traveling from Constantinople via Sivas to Erzinjan, where he was to be installed in office, is slain in the village of Kanli-Tash, near Shabin-Karahisar, by six chetes organized by Ahmed Muammer, the governor-general of Sivas Province

A busy man your grandfather must have been...

[TurQ]

He desrted the army right before the offensive.
Not all of the soldier poisoned. They were camping in groups, and their food was prepared seperately. This is all I know, if you have more questions or thing unrealistic, I can ask and learn if my dad knows anymore on this.

How did your grandad survive being frozen plus the "poisoning"?

[phantom]

He desrted the army right before the offensive.
Not all of the soldier poisoned. They were camping in groups, and their food was prepared seperately. This is all I know, if you have more questions or thing unrealistic, I can ask and learn if my dad knows anymore on this.

TurQ, you are relaying a third-hand story: one told by your great-granddad to your granddad to your dad and then to you. Wait, that makes it a fourth hand story, doesn't it. And somehow the story went from Armenian soldiers poisoning their Turkish fellow soldiers to some Armenian bakers who were later found to be innocent. I'll believe anything that is within the bounds of reason. This story is not!

As for my ancestors, my father and every one of my uncles has served in the Turkish military. My father was beaten senseless on a daily basis for over a month during basic training by his supervising officer (Turkish) for being Armenian. A higher ranking official (also Turkish) stopped the beatings upon learning of them and gave my dad a prefential post in Istanbul rather than the eastern outposts. My uncle was attacked by several Turks of similar rank for being a gavur during his military duty in the eastern outposts. A higher ranking official (Turkish) learned of the attacks and beat the crap out of the Turkish guys. His explanation was that in the army, there is no religion, only brothers. Despite these outbursts and frequent racist attacks, my father and all of my uncles (from both sides of my family) describe their military duty in Turkey with fondness, as if it was some of the best times of their life. And it's amazing how well they remember the details of the things they did all together on a daily basis.

But to me, these stories only highlight how docile and accustomed Istanbul-Armenians have become to oppression and racism in Turkey. They seem to accept that Turks will always view them as gavurs and as "another". And when they get beaten or spit on or villaified in the media, they accept it and go on with their daily lives. They don't let it bother them, instead they enjoy their lives and their money in Istanbul. There's not a single Istanbul-Armenian that would take any enjoyment out of harming a Turk for no reason. This is how it is, and this is probably how it always was. But some Turks, whether it's because they are so great in number or because they have some unvented hostility toward Armenians, seem to take enjoyment out of harming Armenias. And Turks who are used to this type of docile creature get enraged when they have to deal with other Armenians who rightfully refuse to be the ugly stepchild of Turks. This is Turkey, whether you like it or not, that's how it is.

You want to hear the lovely stories of Armenians helping Turkey. But these stories are written everywhere, and they are ignored and even intentionally hidden. You only need to visit the grandest mansions, mosques, palaces and hospitals of Istanbul to see our contribution; every time you read your own alphabet, it should remind you of our contribution since it was an Armenian who invented the modern Turkish alphabet. If those are not enough, how is it going to help for you to know that my grandfather was the first movie theater operator in Istanbul, or that Hovik's great-grandfather made all of the shoes for the Turkish army, or whatever the case may have been? But you don't want to hear about the literally countless stories of our suffering at your ancestors' hands. This suggests that you only want to gratify yourself that our ancestors had good lives in Turkey, and you don't care about how much they suffered. Every time you hear one of these bad stories, you inject some cokamamie story like the poisoning "incident" to somehow balance out the suffering. It's not equal, and there's no reason why we should bow down before Turkey and pretend that it was equal just to make friends again. Turks and Turkey should take steps toward us, not the other way around.

[Vogelgrippe]

Vogelgrippe, that makes a lot of sense. Many Turks I have met often tell about their family roots from Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia, etc and certainly you could see why many, while understanding the plight of Armenians, Anatolian Greek, Assyrians, had their own grievances. I also think that the what happend to Balkan and Crimean Turks galvanized the rest of the Muslim population in Anatolia towards revenge. Armenians, Anatolian Greeks, Assyrians probably became scapegoats from the 1870's onwards.

Joseph, this is one of the points I wanted to make. It should be noted, however, that the clash in every individual Balkan Turk between empathy (for Armenians who lost their homes) and rancor against Armenians (because they shared at least the religion of those who kicked them out of their homes) had different results. As I wrote in my previous post, in my maternal great-grandfather, the emphaty outweighed rancor. Obviously I have no scientific data showing whether empathy or rage outweighed in the majority of Balkan Turks. All I know is, regardless of which group was the majority, the other group constituted a significant minority.

Another note is that Balkan Turks, as compared to their Anatolian kin, met with the ideas of nationalism few decades earlier, and therefore started to identify people as Turks, Albanians, Armenians, Greeks, etc... rather than identifying people only as Moslems and Christians. Again, this fact is far from proving that Balkan Turks treated Armenians more leniently, but it definitely shows that most of them knew the difference between an Armenian and a Greek, Bulgarian etc.... who might have committed attrocities against Turks.

[1.5 million]

You read from books, I am telling what he saw.
You dont have to believe it. Not everything has been written down. And not everything is 100% known by Armenians.

This chronological events somehow skipped the attacks of Armenian forces to Kars border villages in late fall 1914. Since this is not written here, it did not happen?

Its funny that the Commander of the Turkish 3rd Army attempted to have Shakir arrested for these very activites - aparently in the Special Organization's zeal for attacking Armenian villages - that is well documented and began much prior to the war with the Russians - they got a bit out of hand and began raiding Turkish villages and outraging and killing Muslims as well - no surprise considering who they recruited for this group.

I'm not saying that there were not some raids - however by whom is in question. Kars BTW was within Russian dominion at this time BTW. And the documention speaks to mass organized violence against Armenians in these regions and further South and East...to a much greater and more organized/sponsored degree then any violence commmited against Turks.

I find you to be increasing disingenuous in your repetion of these same (questionable/exaggerated) charges as some form of counter and justification to what the CUP/Turks did to the Armenians. (which is just repetiotion of the proven inaccurate and of questionable validity/motivation Turkish propoganda at the time - refuted by testimony of German officers stationed in these areas with theTurks) This (justification and counter claim) is no such thing. And if you truly believe so - you are just ignorant - but I don't believe that. The Ottoman/CUP campaign of Genocide against the Armenains was so much more then some isolated massacres or combat between villages - it was a brutal, organized slaughter - and the reason it occured had nothing to do with any specific Armenian actions prior.

[TurQ]

Just a quick response Phantom

If what I am conveying you is 3rd or 4th hand story so as the storiesof Armenians. I didnt understand what you mean.
I have no knowledge about Armenian bakers, thats totally told by 1.5M. I have heard this from him, I have no information to confirm his source. I believe this might not be the bakery event. Because the soliders died in seperate groups. They were camping in groups, one camp was totally poisoned the others were not. They died in groups. This makes me think that it is not the bread but the poison that was put into their food prepared that night.. Because the bread is probably distributed to all. This is my guess again i dont have sources to confirm the bakery event, and am not sure if it is related or not. And I dont have sources to say that bakers were innocent or not. ANd I dont know how you think that it is a balancing out. As you said before if you believe it is genocide, and nothing can be justified, why should be this a justification?

I have asked you in an earlier post about Duke researcher Yektan Turkyilmaz's research(the guy that was prisoned in Armenia for several weeeks last summer). Is he also trying to balance out by his research on pre 1915 Armenian and Turkish nationalist movements? is he a CUP apologist as well?.

As I have no information about the bakers, may be it should be explained how they were found innocent. Wht i am conveying you is a 1st hand observation from somebody who witnessed those events.

I think those stories has a value, I personally always appriciated those contributions. What I was trying to tell is there should be a way to tell those to avarage Turk by Armenians in friendly ways. I am aware about the Architects built those magnificent buildings.

As for Istanbul Armenians, I have nothing to say. You are 100% right. They are 100,000 group. I cant say most of the Turks are like those who did that kind of behaviours to your family. Even 1% is enough to terrorize a community of that size. And the state is not functioning in a way to protect them(at least those times not now, I mean the governments and local municipalities are generally behaving rational towards minorities in last 10 or so years). OUr guilt as avarage Turk is not to protect and stand against those kind of behaviours. If the avarage Turk had close relation with the Armenian community and defend their rights. I know and aware of some initiations for several years in this directions from various circles of Turkish society including religous groups. Obviously this is not enough.

As for your uncles beaten in the army thats shameful, but at least Army has principles and higher ranking officers intervened and punished those villains.
I am from a military family. My dad wanted me to enroll to airforce academy, I didnt want it but to please him I at least went there for appilcation. We were talking with the Colonel who was responsible for admissions. Then I noticed the list of the names of the applicants. They were listed from highest OSS(SAT type examination)grade to lowest. The highest was an Armenian student. I was suprised and asked, is this Armenian? He replied yes, and starting from few years on that time they began accepting applications from minorities. I asked him "so you will have an Armenian pilot for F-16s?", he said yes, if he is accepted why not?
I dont know what happened later for him being accepted or not, but I can give details in private if you like and you can confirm this I believe, from Armenian community in Turkey. I believe he could be unique in this case, probably he is known in the community.

And one last thing,if I were not cared how much they suffered I wouldnt be here.
You are right about Turkey and Turks should take steps towards Armenians, I believe IStanbul Armenians(despite their situation) can and should help us for strenghting or establishing Turkish Armenian relations.

TurQ, you are relaying a third-hand story: one told by your great-granddad to your granddad to your dad and then to you. Wait, that makes it a fourth hand story, doesn't it. And somehow the story went from Armenian soldiers poisoning their Turkish fellow soldiers to some Armenian bakers who were later found to be innocent. I'll believe anything that is within the bounds of reason. This story is not!

As for my ancestors, my father and every one of my uncles has served in the Turkish military. My father was beaten senseless on a daily basis for over a month during basic training by his supervising officer (Turkish) for being Armenian. A higher ranking official (also Turkish) stopped the beatings upon learning of them and gave my dad a prefential post in Istanbul rather than the eastern outposts. My uncle was attacked by several Turks of similar rank for being a gavur during his military duty in the eastern outposts. A higher ranking official (Turkish) learned of the attacks and beat the crap out of the Turkish guys. His explanation was that in the army, there is no religion, only brothers. Despite these outbursts and frequent racist attacks, my father and all of my uncles (from both sides of my family) describe their military duty in Turkey with fondness, as if it was some of the best times of their life. And it's amazing how well they remember the details of the things they did all together on a daily basis.

But to me, these stories only highlight how docile and accustomed Istanbul-Armenians have become to oppression and racism in Turkey. They seem to accept that Turks will always view them as gavurs and as "another". And when they get beaten or spit on or villaified in the media, they accept it and go on with their daily lives. They don't let it bother them, instead they enjoy their lives and their money in Istanbul. There's not a single Istanbul-Armenian that would take any enjoyment out of harming a Turk for no reason. This is how it is, and this is probably how it always was. But some Turks, whether it's because they are so great in number or because they have some unvented hostility toward Armenians, seem to take enjoyment out of harming Armenias. And Turks who are used to this type of docile creature get enraged when they have to deal with other Armenians who rightfully refuse to be the ugly stepchild of Turks. This is Turkey, whether you like it or not, that's how it is.

You want to hear the lovely stories of Armenians helping Turkey. But these stories are written everywhere, and they are ignored and even intentionally hidden. You only need to visit the grandest mansions, mosques, palaces and hospitals of Istanbul to see our contribution; every time you read your own alphabet, it should remind you of our contribution since it was an Armenian who invented the modern Turkish alphabet. If those are not enough, how is it going to help for you to know that my grandfather was the first movie theater operator in Istanbul, or that Hovik's great-grandfather made all of the shoes for the Turkish army, or whatever the case may have been? But you don't want to hear about the literally countless stories of our suffering at your ancestors' hands. This suggests that you only want to gratify yourself that our ancestors had good lives in Turkey, and you don't care about how much they suffered. Every time you hear one of these bad stories, you inject some cokamamie story like the poisoning "incident" to somehow balance out the suffering. It's not equal, and there's no reason why we should bow down before Turkey and pretend that it was equal just to make friends again. Turks and Turkey should take steps toward us, not the other way around.

[TurQ]

No KArs was not totally under Russian control in fall 1914.
It was the attacks by Armenian desrters from Turkish army(5 units) later escaped to Russian controlled Armenian side. They were under Russian control. AS I understand they were controlled by Andranik Ozanyan(Shebin KArahisar born)Pasha, he was ordained as a Russian general. He was officially a Russian general controlling those Armenian units. You can probably easily find Armenian resources about him(A book by Antranik Chelebyan, "Antranik Pasha".

I am not charging or commenting, you have given as a list of events, I was wondering why these Kars border raids were not included, because they were happening exactly at the same time late fall 1914.

Its funny that the Commander of the Turkish 3rd Army attempted to have Shakir arrested for these very activites - aparently in the Special Organization's zeal for attacking Armenian villages - that is well documented and began much prior to the war with the Russians - they got a bit out of hand and began raiding Turkish villages and outraging and killing Muslims as well - no surprise considering who they recruited for this group.

I'm not saying that there were not some raids - however by whom is in question. Kars BTW was within Russian dominion at this time BTW. And the documention speaks to mass organized violence against Armenians in these regions and further South and East...to a much greater and more organized/sponsored degree then any violence commmited against Turks.

I find you to be increasing disingenuous in your repetion of these same (questionable/exaggerated) charges as some form of counter and justification to what the CUP/Turks did to the Armenians. (which is just repetiotion of the proven inaccurate and of questionable validity/motivation Turkish propoganda at the time - refuted by testimony of German officers stationed in these areas with theTurks) This (justification and counter claim) is no such thing. And if you truly believe so - you are just ignorant - but I don't believe that. The Ottoman/CUP campaign of Genocide against the Armenains was so much more then some isolated massacres or combat between villages - it was a brutal, organized slaughter - and the reason it occured had nothing to do with any specific Armenian actions prior.