Balkan Turks

[1.5 million]

Gondorian. You should investigate this population exchange further. In fact Turks had already announced that they were going to unilaterally expell all their Greeks (Christians) and set a deadline for Greece to agree to accept them. Ataturk made a speech before the Turkish Grand national Assembly on October 4 1922 where he declared "We must clear our enemies from every part of our nation. But we may not need war to accomplish this." Ataturk's Minister of the Interior Fethi Bey declared: "No Greek can live in Anatolia among the Turkish population" So yousee the Turks forced this exchange. They created the fear - the threat. And they were racially motivated by this concept of Ataturk's concerning Turkishness and all of the ideas of such being so special - thus they were the ones who wanted Turks in Turkey. The Greeks were not clamoring to rid themselves of the Turks in Greeks - it was the Turks who forced this whole thing. And it also wasnt always such a simple exchange per se - with people being allowed to keep their possessions. A great number of Greeks were beaten and harrased and had property stolen - and many Armenians and Greek men were taken prisoner and some killed (100,000 Armenians were part of the exchange BTW - Greece accepted them without question even though there was no legal framework drawn up for them to do so.) There are some very harrowing accounts of what some greek and Armenian men went through during this period. Many who survived only managed to get out years later...

[Gondorian]

1.5 Million I know about what you said, what I was responding to was the implication of millions of Turks expelled from Greece by heartless warlords intent on causing suffering and creating an ethnically pure Greece. I was only tackling that emotionally charged image which Scythian was all too quick to accuse Greece of.

What I am proud of though concerning the population exchange is that the Greeks, and the Armenians who got forced out were provided for by Greece and where put back up on their feet with dignity, and that they have never been used as a propaganda tool by cynical warriors.

The knowledge that Greeks were going to be expelled from their homes was one of the driving factors behind the decision of Greece to go to war with Turkey following World War One.

[ScythianVizier]

Yeah they really should tackle the Bulgarian massacres of 1876.

Yes, they should tackle the Cossack and Russian crimes executed in Ottoman Bulgaria.

All these people were shedding themselves from the centuries long insurmountable opression they've had to endure.

Nice excuse to commit crimes just like the ones executed in Africa, in Asia, in Australia, in North and South America.

Oh, and what is this turk stuff of "feel sorry for the Balkan turks"? You were the invaders, the opressors. The turks in Bulgaria didn't live in peace and harmony with Bulgarians, the turks in bulgaria were the opressors and extortionists.

Really? Why did these slaughter and deportations include the Pomaks, Bosniaks, Albanians, and muslim Greeks on top of the Turks and Tatars? Due to cooperation with enemy by converting to Islam?

I am not going to comment on the stories of some Christians who utilized propaganda tools to establish righful reasons to slaughter the muslims population of the Ottoman Empire particularly during the times of conflict. These are really old propaganda tools as early as the crusades. In fact, the numbers given by the Bulgarians human right activists well reveal the sphere of deportations and slaughter occurred just in Bulgaria with the support of Western Europe and Russia.

Finally, it is good to see the Armenians still acting on behalf of the Bulgarians, just like General Antranik, and his regiment I suppose.

[ScythianVizier]

I just skimmed through this, and I noticed a few complaints against the EU I would like to address.

1. The German Citizenship test if perfectly alright with the questions it asks now. Muslims around the world have cultural practices like Honor Killings, and I think it is perfectly reasonable for Germany to simply reject people who would kill their sister for having sex.

2. The context of expulsion of Turks from Greece was a Population Exchange where Greeks got expelled from Turkey. Turkey and Greece had both feered that the minority population would be slaughtered by angry mobs, so did the population exchange.

3. Western Countries have recognized past crimes and teach them in their history books. Turkey does not recognize it's past.

It is so sad to see how some people here could be so illerate when they walk out the terriories of the Armenian Genocide.

First of all, it is not a conclusive to establish links between honor killings and Islam by only assessing at the honor killings and the murderers. Many people in the west also kill their wives, children, and sisters for various reasons, even for more pervert reasons than the one you refer. Nevertheless, if you utilize similar mindset, then you could also conclude that the US, British and European Christians like to invade foreign countries to videotape the murder and torture scenes with the participation of locals.

Second, the population exchange took place after the Greek attempt to invade Anatolian Turkey, not before. However, the Greeks even killed and expelled the muslim Greeks from Greece, not to mention the Pomaks, Turks, Gypsies, and Albanians. The demographic changes in Crete is a good example of what happened. In 1821, there were 160.00 Muslims and 129.000 Christians, however in 1911, the Christian population was 307.000 where as the muslims was only 28.000. Similar trend is also applicable for Greece, Former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Albania, and Madedonia, Romania, Crimea, and Caucasus. Of course, it should be stressed that such trend had some reverse effects in Anatolia related to the Christian Armenian and Rum peoples consequently.

Third, there is not a single Western nation who recognized a genocide if one could exclude Germany. In fact, the French killed millions of Algerians before and after 1948. However, they still teach the "benefits" of colonial rule in France whilst denying to recognize the crimes that they commited in Cambotia, Vietnam, Rwanda, Canada, Algeria, and so on. Same applies to Belgium who killed some 10 millon Africans (in their own country) in Congo. Today, calling King Leopard as a genocide commiter in Belgium is a crime. What about the Russians who recognize the Armenian Genocide whilst evading the Cricassian, Chechen, Akbhaz, Laz, and Tatar ones? Dont you find it a bit weird?

Nevertheless, I dont want to provide examples from each of those nations you refer as a benchmark for humanity, due to the fact that it could take quite a long time just to list the crimes and genocides commited by those highly advanced nations.

[ScythianVizier]

Gondorian. You should investigate this population exchange further. In fact Turks had already announced that they were going to unilaterally expell all their Greeks (Christians) and set a deadline for Greece to agree to accept them. Ataturk made a speech before the Turkish Grand national Assembly on October 4 1922 where he declared "We must clear our enemies from every part of our nation. But we may not need war to accomplish this." Ataturk's Minister of the Interior Fethi Bey declared: "No Greek can live in Anatolia among the Turkish population" So yousee the Turks forced this exchange. They created the fear - the threat. And they were racially motivated by this concept of Ataturk's concerning Turkishness and all of the ideas of such being so special - thus they were the ones who wanted Turks in Turkey. The Greeks were not clamoring to rid themselves of the Turks in Greeks - it was the Turks who forced this whole thing. And it also wasnt always such a simple exchange per se - with people being allowed to keep their possessions. A great number of Greeks were beaten and harrased and had property stolen - and many Armenians and Greek men were taken prisoner and some killed (100,000 Armenians were part of the exchange BTW - Greece accepted them without question even though there was no legal framework drawn up for them to do so.) There are some very harrowing accounts of what some greek and Armenian men went through during this period. Many who survived only managed to get out years later...

So, the Circassians, Ahkbaz, Chechen, Laz, Turks, Tatars, Albanians, Bosniaks, Pomaks were not slaughtered, killed, or their propreties were not plundered. Is this what you want to say? If they were, those were not the genocides since they were some uncivilized people who must have cleansed off one or the other way?

It is really interesting to see how you react when the issue gets complicated than what you envisage. You seem to stick to the 1.5 million figure pretty well even though you do not hesitate to deny and decrease the number of the muslim losses. Do you think that your own points about genocide recognition get any convincing by acting like that?

[1.5 million]

So, the Circassians, Ahkbaz, Chechen, Laz, Turks, Tatars, Albanians, Bosniaks, Pomaks were not slaughtered, killed, or their propreties were not plundered. Is this what you want to say? If they were, those were not the genocides since they were some uncivilized people who must have cleansed off one or the other way?

It is really interesting to see how you react when the issue gets complicated than what you envisage. You seem to stick to the 1.5 million figure pretty well even though you do not hesitate to deny and decrease the number of the muslim losses. Do you think that your own points about genocide recognition get any convincing by acting like that?

I don't see where your comment has anything at all to do with what I posted or my postion in general.

[ScythianVizier]

I don't see where your comment has anything at all to do with what I posted or my postion in general.

This is what you think of in relation to our the issue:

"There is much more to this story then this single account BTW. Suffice to say that Circassians suffered horribly. As to where the "missing" Cicassians are now...well look around you Sythian...I for one continue to meet more and more Turks who claim to be Circassian or part and such - now that the taboos in Turkey are lifting for folks to identify themselves as such I think we will easily find these numbers among the 80 or so million "Turks" in Turkey today..."

How do you feel if I also tell you that you should look around to seek for the missing Armenians?

[Gondorian]

Really? Why did these slaughter and deportations include the Pomaks, Bosniaks, Albanians, and muslim Greeks on top of the Turks and Tatars? Due to cooperation with enemy by converting to Islam?

1.5 million and I debinked that already.

First of all, it is not a conclusive to establish links between honor killings and Islam by only assessing at the honor killings and the murderers. Many people in the west also kill their wives, children, and sisters for various reasons, even for more pervert reasons than the one you refer. Nevertheless, if you utilize similar mindset, then you could also conclude that the US, British and European Christians like to invade foreign countries to videotape the murder and torture scenes with the participation of locals.

So Europeans should accept Barbarians who would kill their sister for having Sex? If the Aplicant is not a Barbarian he/she should be able to provide all the correct answers to the test.

Second, the population exchange took place after the Greek attempt to invade Anatolian Turkey, not before. However, the Greeks even killed and expelled the muslim Greeks from Greece, not to mention the Pomaks, Turks, Gypsies, and Albanians. The demographic changes in Crete is a good example of what happened. In 1821, there were 160.00 Muslims and 129.000 Christians, however in 1911, the Christian population was 307.000 where as the muslims was only 28.000. Similar trend is also applicable for Greece, Former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Albania, and Madedonia, Romania, Crimea, and Caucasus. Of course, it should be stressed that such trend had some reverse effects in Anatolia related to the Christian Armenian and Rum peoples consequently.

It was a well known fact that the Greeks where going to be expelled or slaughtered, the Greek Sollution to it was instead of population exchange Greece would liberate all historically Hellenic Land that had a Greek Majority, thus assuring the protection of the Greeks without hurting Turks. Unfortunately defeat left us with no choice but the Population Exchange. Many Turks also just left Greece when Liberation Came voluntarily preffering to still be rulled by Muslims.

Third, there is not a single Western nation who recognized a genocide if one could exclude Germany. In fact, the French killed millions of Algerians before and after 1948. However, they still teach the "benefits" of colonial rule in France whilst denying to recognize the crimes that they commited in Cambotia, Vietnam, Rwanda, Canada, Algeria, and so on. Same applies to Belgium who killed some 10 millon Africans (in their own country) in Congo. Today, calling King Leopard as a genocide commiter in Belgium is a crime. What about the Russians who recognize the Armenian Genocide whilst evading the Cricassian, Chechen, Akbhaz, Laz, and Tatar ones? Dont you find it a bit weird?

Like with Bulgarian I don't think you know what Genocide is. The French did not commit Genocide in Algeria, Canada, Vietnam, or Cambotia. The French did do many bad things, that France has admitted to.

Nevertheless, I dont want to provide examples from each of those nations you refer as a benchmark for humanity, due to the fact that it could take quite a long time just to list the crimes and genocides commited by those highly advanced nations.

You would also be using Western Sources, Western History Books, and Western Public School Curriculums for doing that. The West recognized it's crimes and changed, Turkey still to this day does not recognize the Armenian Genocide.

[ScythianVizier]

1.5 million and I debinked that already.

I havent noticed that.

So Europeans should accept Barbarians who would kill their sister for having Sex? If the Aplicant is not a Barbarian he/she should be able to provide all the correct answers to the test.

One should always treat the others in line with the treatment that he/she expects to receive from the others. I dont know how you could still differentiate people as the "barbarians" and the "civilized" ones when it is the Europeans who did nothing about the torture planes of the CIA operated in the airzone of the EU. In fact, such "naive definition" could range from one place to another. When the barbarian for you is the guy who kills his sister for some reason, the barbarian for the ones who were tortured on such aircrafts will be simply you and the notions you stand for.

It was a well known fact that the Greeks where going to be expelled or slaughtered, the Greek Sollution to it was instead of population exchange Greece would liberate all historically Hellenic Land that had a Greek Majority, thus assuring the protection of the Greeks without hurting Turks. Unfortunately defeat left us with no choice but the Population Exchange. Many Turks also just left Greece when Liberation Came voluntarily preffering to still be rulled by Muslims.

Well, it is nice way of expressing the reasons for the crimes commited. However, they do not change the fact that those demographic changes, plunders, mass slaughters, and forced deportations that took place in Greece and in other Balkan countries, had some reverse effects in Anatolia as far as the Armenians and the Rums are concerned. Thus, it could be deemed that the last Rum effort to expand their juristiction in Anatolia at the expense of Ottoman Muslims did also seal the fate of the remaining Anatolian Rums and the Armenians.

Like with Bulgarian I don't think you know what Genocide is. The French did not commit Genocide in Algeria, Canada, Vietnam, or Cambotia. The French did do many bad things, that France has admitted to.

Well "what you think" does not matter to me and it does not matter to the Algerians, Vietnamese, or Cambotians. For all of those, the European colonists are the barbarians and nothing you say or do could change the fact about their losses. Nevertheless, I view these events as genocides since they all aimed a particular group of people, executed within the juristiction of the colonist countries' borders, they all aimed civilians (including elderly and children), they all included mass-slaughters, they all involved exploitation and plundering of property and capital incomes (which prevented their demographic and culturel development), forced cultural constraints, and so on.

So, if you ever visit those countries, please do not forget to ask who the barbarians are, as whether the barbarians are the French or anybody else. Sorry, but your arguments to evade some death toll involving extermination of some 250-500 million people (by the Western Europeans within their own juristictions, not due to wars) can not be disguised or can not be regarded as any part of some "advanced civilization", but a part of pure barbarism and planned genocides.

You would also be using Western Sources, Western History Books, and Western Public School Curriculums for doing that. The West recognized it's crimes and changed, Turkey still to this day does not recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Please read a bit of resources that are not Western (or not the mainstream ones printed in the citadels of the Western Captalism and Plunderism) such as the ones printed in Asia, in the Amerikas, in Africa, and so on. By default, you must assess the "other resources" in order come up with some neutral or balanced view to the issue. If not, you fall into the category of the "barbarian" more than the ones who kill their "sisters" due to ignorance or illiteracy.

Finally, read a bit more about how the Western Countries deny the crimes and genocides by evading to confront them directly. The French president, Chirac condemns the Armenian Genocide every year together with the Jewish one, but fails to express his grief for the ones executed by the fascists of France and any other western country (if one could exclude Germany). Thus, they do still teach the benefits of colonial rule to the French kids in public schools. Furthermore, I dont recall any recognition of the genocides executed by those countries. For example, the British killed some 20-29 million Indians in India in order to build that fascinating palaces of London that most tourists adore to visit. Hence, I dont recall the British adressing any of the crimes executed in their colonies, not to mention to how they treated the civilians in Iraq as broadcasted on TV. In fact, the Jewish genocide was the full scale implementation of the deliberate colonial genocides back in Europe, nothing more than ordinary fascism.

[Bulgarian]

The idea that there is a "Balkan TURK*" is a phoney and fake as the idea that the Turks were victim of atrocities in the Caucasus and the Balkans.

* There is no such thing as a Turkish race. The Turks are the only people in the Old World (ie not the American continent) that dont have a race.