ASALA:Was it really necessary?

[maral_m79]

How did you find a relation between the Pope and Asala?

Or how did you get to this conclusion? Is every one who was attacked by Mehmet A. Ağca, an Asala member.

And Ağca says: ''I shot the Pope with my own decision, no one commissioned me.''

Do you threaten me with your personal enemities? Do what you want. But before I am banned, you'll have to bear my answers.

I don't know what's the relation, between the Pop and ASALA ... It was you who was saying that Agca was working according to orders to assasinate ASALA members ... You were saying that ASALA was their only goal ..

And saying "setteling personal enemities", I meant that the gray wolves many times had assasinated "Thier Personal Enemies" or "People they don't like" under the cover of their organization, or even sometimes blamed it on ASALA... Just like what an Azri official had admitted lately .
I didn't mean that you are my personal enemy, or anything like that... and I have no power to ban you from this forum, for I'm not a moderator... I am a member just like yourself.. and even if I was a moderator I wouldn't ban you for speaking your opinion "respectfully" ...

And as you just said, Agca attempted to assasinate the Pop ( for a personal enemity) but I don't know what did the Pop do to him (personally) so he planned assasinating him!! What does all that have to do with the mission of the gray wolves to get rid of ASALA ... that you should ask Agca himself, why did he deviate from his mission, and brought shame on his organization!!

[maral_m79]

Was not a One Man Thing !

Do you really think that he shot the Pope with his own decision?

If you ask me ... I don't think it was his own decision!!

I mean, it is just lame to think that an operation to assasinate "THE POP" could be planned and carried out by only one man ....

We are talking here about an INTERNATIONAL FIGURE ... not a normal person who pass by you everyday in his way to work !!!

Of course Agca was ORDERED and HELPED in his assasination attempt ... That was not a One Man Work!!

[TurQ]

Yes you are right
Most eveidence shows that it is the Soviet intellegience operations thru Bulgarian mafia. Soviet regime was not comfortable with Pope's activities in Poland and other catholic christian eastern block countries.

Agca spent his time in Bulgaria after escaping from Turkey.

If you ask me ... I don't think it was his own decision!!

I mean, it is just lame to think that an operation to assasinate "THE POP" could be planned and carried out by only one man ....

We are talking here about an INTERNATIONAL FIGURE ... not a normal person who pass by you everyday in his way to work !!!

Of course Agca was ORDERED and HELPED in his assasination attempt ... That was not a One Man Work!!

[cosmos2]

It is clear that Ağca is saving some people with saying that it was by my own desicion.

Besides, I think he conciously behaves like a crazy man. He says every time ''I am a messiah.'' He most probably thinks, if he has prove his insanity, will be released from prison.

[maral_m79]

If there had to be reconciliation it'll be thru healthy relations, and Asala's way was not an healthy thing. And you are talking about pressuring Turkey thru 3rd parties, and Asala did a good job by taking the attention of western world. You think Western world is supporting you, it is the other way around Gavur, they think that Armenians worth to be used to pressure Turkey. These are not healthy approaches first for Armenians and then Turkish-Armenian relations.

TurQ, are you still talking "reconcilliation" ??
I thought you had understood by now, that reconcilliation is not possible with denial...

As in Armenian, I can't be your friend and normalize relations with you, until you at least take the "moral step" of recognizing the Armenian Genocide !
That is the LEAST that you can do if you want reconcilliation, and if you want to convince some Armenians to compromise !

Or else, all what you will hear from me (us) is NO... No relations, No normalization, and No to stopping the pressure of the Armenian Diaspora worldwide !
No .. No ... No !!

[maral_m79]

Yes you are right
Most eveidence shows that it is the Soviet intellegience operations thru Bulgarian mafia. Soviet regime was not comfortable with Pope's activities in Poland and other catholic christian eastern block countries.

Agca spent his time in Bulgaria after escaping from Turkey.

So the Gray Wolves, were in fact KGB agents, or Bulgarian Mafia friends !!
And all that have nothing to do with their cover-story of being an organization JUST to fight ASALA!!! how sad!

[TurQ]

Yes I am and I will Maral

Armenians are not uniform, and I am sure you will not be thinking in same way in future.
I am not talking about being friends. I am saying that if you wanna tell something to Turks, just do it as a friendly way, tell them what you wanna say directly to them not as an enemy. It will attract reaction, and no Turk or Turkish government ever bow down to any kind of pressure on this.
And I think it should be obvious that normalization of the relations are more important for Armenia than Turks. Forget about the EU thing or other parliments` decision, they wont mean anything to Turkey. You'll spent more and more decades and money, torture to your own nerves, and wont pay anything believe me. I am giving you a friendly advice, and an insider info you may call. You are probably thinking that the pressure of Armenian diaspora is something, yes it is but not much. It wont ever effect Turkish foreign policy at all.

I am not saying you to give up your ideals or anything, this is part your identity and I am aware that asking to give up those is the same as asking you to give up your Armenianess.
Anyways, If you want to tell something to Turks, the only way is to build relations with them, this is a fact and I am just stating it. Any other option will just attract reaction.

TurQ, are you still talking "reconcilliation" ??
I thought you had understood by now, that reconcilliation is not possible with denial...

As in Armenian, I can't be your friend and normalize relations with you, until you at least take the "moral step" of recognizing the Armenian Genocide !
That is the LEAST that you can do if you want reconcilliation, and if you want to convince some Armenians to compromise !

Or else, all what you will hear from me (us) is NO... No relations, No normalization, and No to stopping the pressure of the Armenian Diaspora worldwide !
No .. No ... No !!

[maral_m79]

Yes I am and I will Maral

Armenians are not uniform, and I am sure you will not be thinking in same way in future.
I am not talking about being friends. I am saying that if you wanna tell something to Turks, just do it as a friendly way, tell them what you wanna say directly to them not as an enemy. It will attract reaction, and no Turk or Turkish government ever bow down to any kind of pressure on this.
And I think it should be obvious that normalization of the relations are more important for Armenia than Turks. Forget about the EU thing or other parliments` decision, they wont mean anything to Turkey. You'll spent more and more decades and money, torture to your own nerves, and wont pay anything believe me. I am giving you a friendly advice, and an insider info you may call. You are probably thinking that the pressure of Armenian diaspora is something, yes it is but not much. It wont ever effect Turkish foreign policy at all.

I am not saying you to give up your ideals or anything, this is part your identity and I am aware that asking to give up those is the same as asking you to give up your Armenianess.
Anyways, If you want to tell something to Turks, the only way is to build relations with them, this is a fact and I am just stating it. Any other option will just attract reaction.

Then as you see ... We reached a "dead end" !!
You said that we should "Talk Friendly" .. yet you don't!
We are not threatening to "deal with" you if you don't give up your stance ... Erdogan did! and he threaten even the parlimants that recognized the Armenian Genocide, not only the Armenians in the Diaspora!

TARC = Turkish Armenian Reconcilliation Commission, ended with the recognition of International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ) of the Armenian Genocide, yet the Turks left the Committe and just walked away!

So what is it that you want? Did you think that what you were asking for haven't happened before? Then take a good look at TARC ... After the conclusion was made, Turks just simply refused it and walked away!!!

IT IS A DEAD END!!!

[TurQ]

I think what we differ is you are (I mean you not all Armenians) generalizing everythng to each and every Turkish citizen. What I was talking about is the relation between avarage people, be it cultural, or economic between companies etc etc. You have the feeling that you are dealing with Turkish state when you are even talking with a Turk.
If you wanna reach dead end thats fine. Erdogan's government is among the best in terms of reaching out to Armenia and Armenians. Instead of utilizing this, you are trying to find something inorder to accuse him and his government. He even wanted to speak with some Diaspora leaders. I am not saying Turkey is doing its best to reach out Armenians, but you and people like you have to start seperating average person with a govermental officer.

And please stop that Armenians are doing their best to reach Turks but barbar racist Turks refuse it. It is not the case. Around 30,000 Armenian citizens work and earn their living from Turkey. Turkish government knows this,a nd it wont be hard to block those people entering Turkey working illegal. You are forcing yourself not to see any positive things about Turks or Turkey, and everything about Turks is uniform in your eyes, Meral. Life is not black and white.

I was recommending you that if you (now I am generalizing to all Armenians) can build NGO, or civil relations with communties or societies in Turkey, you will have the chance to tell about yourselves and your agony easily. I was recommending that it will be more fruitful for you guys and be more productive comapred with spending decades of decades and millions of millions of dollars and torturing your nerves by hating what Turkey is doing.
Take it or leave it approach will not help you, thats what I am saying.

Then as you see ... We reached a "dead end" !!
You said that we should "Talk Friendly" .. yet you don't!
We are not threatening to "deal with" you if you don't give up your stance ... Erdogan did! and he threaten even the parlimants that recognized the Armenian Genocide, not only the Armenians in the Diaspora!

TARC = Turkish Armenian Reconcilliation Commission, ended with the recognition of International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ) of the Armenian Genocide, yet the Turks left the Committe and just walked away!

So what is it that you want? Did you think that what you were asking for haven't happened before? Then take a good look at TARC ... After the conclusion was made, Turks just simply refused it and walked away!!!

IT IS A DEAD END!!!

[bg_turk]

So what is it that you want? Did you think that what you were asking for haven't happened before? Then take a good look at TARC ... After the conclusion was made, Turks just simply refused it and walked away!!!

IT IS A DEAD END!!!

Can you please give references, I am interested to learn more.