Genocide information

[Bujeg]

Members of İttihat and Terakki



Mehmet Talat Paşa

Talat Paşa, who was the first Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Turkey established in 1909, was the Prime Minister (Grand Vizier) during the war years, Cavid Bey was the Minister of Finance in the same period, Faik Suleyman Paşa, an army general who was killed on the Caucasian Front, had been a Grand Master of same Grand Lodge)



Cavit Bey

At that time there were 23 lodges in Turkey. The foundation of the political regimes of the First and Second Constitutional Monarchies and societies such as The Young Ottomans, The Young Turks and Committee of Union and Progress came into being by the endless efforts of freemasons labouring in these lodges. The Grand Lodge of Turkey was also founded by these freemasons after the establishment of the 2nd Constitutional Monarchy.

Among the founding members of the Grand Lodge of Turkey were: Prince Aziz Hasan Paşa, commander of the Selimiye cavalry regiment, Mehmet Cavit Bey, - Minister of Finance -, Mehmet Talat Sait Paşa future Grand Vizier -, Mithat Şükrü Bleda, Rıza Tevfik Bölükbaşı Grand Master in 1919-, Fuat Hulusi Demirelli, Faik Süleyman Paşa Grand Master in 1915, died on the Caucasian Front -, Galip Bey, - The Chief of Staff of the Gendarmerie Forces and Hüseyin Cahit Yalçın famous journalist and deputy in the Pariamant.

On August 1st 1909 under the name of Maşrık-ı Azamı Osmani (Ottoman Grand Orient) the first Grand Lodge of Turkey was established. Mehmet Talat Sait Paşa was the first Grand Master, Rıza Tevfik Bölükbaşı and Osman Talat Bey were the members of the Board of Grand Officers.

http://www.mason.org.tr/en_history.htm

Incidentally! In Morgenthau's book, he acknowledges that Djavid Bey/Cavid Bey (on the right) was a Jew.

"A Jew by race but a Mohammedan by religion;an influential member of the Young Turk party." p. 145.

[Bujeg]

** And who were these Young Turks who organized The Armenian genocide? We turn to Sabbatean Messianism as Proto-Secularism: M. Avrum Ehrlich for the answer. **

The extent to which Jews were involved in the Young Turk revolution is debated, some arguing that Jews and Donme dominated the Committee of the Union and Progress Party (C.U.P) which gained control of the State. Others argue that this was anti-Semitic rhetoric and exaggerated and that while the Jews supported the revolution on a grass roots level, they were not highly represented in the upper echelons of the party. Indeed British diplomats did report to the home office that a Jewish-Masonic conspiracy was at work favouring the revolution. The Donme are believed to have been equally involved in the revolution but exact details are less known due to a number of reasons...It was via the Masonic lodges that the Donme, the Jews, Bektashi and secularists who were less accepted in mainstream society were able to meet on an equal footing, many of them becoming major instruments of the revolution...Whether the suspicions that Masonry is responsible for sedition and subversive activities are true or not, in this context they were a convenient home for the revolution, providing lodges and personnel, secrecy and structures for the revolution. The Donme thrived in the Masonic environment, allowing them to be both secretive and influential, maintaining their religious ideas in a non-dogmatic atmosphere. Bridging the gap between the Jews and the Muslims, they seemed to represent the happy medium of the secular Young Turk revolution. Even today Donme are involved in the Masonic Lodof Turkey. Sahir Talat Akev of the Kapanci-Izmir group of Donme was the Grand Master of the Masons until his death in 1999.

Dr Nazim, Nuzhet Faik, Mustafa Arif, Muslihiddin Adil, Sukru Bleda, Halide Edip Adivar and Ahmet Emin Yalman were all active in the Young Turks and of Donme families. Mehmet Kapanci (1839-1924) who was a mayor of Salonica and a well-known banker funded the C.U.P and was a Donme. Other Jews active in the Young Turks were Nissim Mazliah from Izmir and Vitali Faradji , Moise Cohen (later called Munis Tekinalp) who was an active Jew and once rabbinical student who turned to business and actively asserted a proud Turkish identity along with Zionist sentiments...It is curious that Israel’s first and second Prime Ministers, David Ben Gurion and Moshe Sharett and her second president Yitzchak Ben Zvi had lived and studied in Istanbul and embraced the concept “lehitatmen”, Hebrew for “to become an Ottoman”. Ben Zvi is alleged by some to be descendent of a Sabbatean family. Sharett served in the Ottoman army in WW1. Ben Gurion gave up Russian citizenship for Ottoman citizenship, something many others in Palestine were afraid to do. Israeli Presidents Ben Zvi, Zalman Shazar and to a lesser degree Yitzchak Navon became students of Ottomanism.

Mehmet Cavit Bey (1875-1926) was one of the most significant Donme political figures. He was active in the revolution as a highly articulate editor of a tabloid and professor of finance and was three times Finance Minister of Modern Turkey until his execution for his alleged role in the assassination attempt of Ataturk. It is believed that Cavit Bey was an ardent Zionist and saw the advantages for Turkey in the Jewish settlement of Palestine.

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/Kerry_Gaza.htm

[maral_m79]

Maral,

Thank you for the links. I found some of this information useful.

Especially this page:

http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/Minnesotans_and_the_Armenian_G/minnesotans_and_the_armenian_g.html

I could use a newspaper archive like this. This is bookmarked.

If you find that the Newspapers archive useful to your research, then I would like to recommend this Before The Silence section of the Armenian Research Center. It containes a lot of newspapers articles about the Armenian Genocide, specially that of "The New York Times".

[1.5 million]

If you find that the Newspapers archive useful to your research, then I would like to recommend this Before The Silence section of the Armenian Research Center. It containes a lot of newspapers articles about the Armenian Genocide, specially that of "The New York Times".

Look don't waste your time. He has already stated - if it doesn't fit into his conspiracy theory regarding masonic influence he doesn't want to hear about it...

[Perun]

If you find that the Newspapers archive useful to your research, then I would like to recommend this Before The Silence section of the Armenian Research Center. It containes a lot of newspapers articles about the Armenian Genocide, specially that of "The New York Times".

I can see it touches on the Greek issues as well. Thank you for these. I have not examined all of them, but will do so.

Here are some I found interesting from the Greek point of view:

"Nearly all the trade and commerce and whatever manufacturers there is are in the hands of the Greeks, their only competition being from the Armenians."

[Perun]

As part of my work, I will include official surveys. For right now, I am establishing a knowlege base.

Bejug, Maral, I find your inputs conducive for my research work. I would like to ask both of you and others to write down your brief opinions concerning the events. Please write down what you want. I feel it can get helpful to me as far as what to expect when I do more proper surveying.

Thanks.

[maral_m79]

"Nearly all the trade and commerce and whatever manufacturers there is are in the hands of the Greeks, their only competition being from the Armenians."

The trade and commerce at the time of Ottoman Empire were considered as a sign of degradation, Turks didn't do these busnisses because they had prefered the "Military, Deplomatic and official and administrative" careers ... As the non-muslims were not allowed to bare weapons, they had no right to join military .... So they were only left with Trade, commerce, translation and communication ... All non-muslim Ottoman minorities were involved in those stuff, including Armenians, Greek, Jews ...etc.

[TurQ]

Degradation? To give them the opportunity be rich? Yes certain ethnic groups focused on certain type of jobs, I am wondering how could those be considered as degradation...
Armenians for example thought themselves always superior or previligied over the other Caucusian CHristians(Georgians) because they were given higher trade opportunities because Armenians were Ottoman citizens.
I think your ideas are driven from a false assumption that "If Turks do something thats always bad for Armenians". The proffessions that you say degrading are the ones that increase intellectual level of a community.
We Turks always thought that we had to do all the dangerous stuff inorder to preserve the wealth and integrity of the Ottoman state, and the other ethnic groups benefited from it. I think it depends on how you look at it.

And as far as the diplomatic and administrative professions yes there were Armenians as well. The right hand of Abdulhamid Khan was an Armenian Minister who was responsible of Ottoman Treasury. During WW-I Armenians served as officers in Gallipoli and in Ottoman Intelleligence units against Brits and French. I once had the photos of local police in Izmir mostly Armenians.This is early 1900s. SO and so forth.

I am really wondering if there is an academic source that really claims that trade and commerce would be degrading professions in Ottoman society.

The trade and commerce at the time of Ottoman Empire were considered as a sign of degradation, Turks didn't do these busnisses because they had prefered the "Military, Deplomatic and official and administrative" careers ... As the non-muslims were not allowed to bare weapons, they had no right to join military .... So they were only left with Trade, commerce, translation and communication ... All non-muslim Ottoman minorities were involved in those stuff, including Armenians, Greek, Jews ...etc.

[maral_m79]

I am really wondering if there is an academic source that really claims that trade and commerce would be degrading professions in Ottoman society.

Yes ...

For example, in her book " States, Identities and Homogenisation", Heather Rae stated the following ..

"... This took place at the decline in Ottoman Empire, and made the Armenian community an object of resentment which fed a stereotype of the grasping and cunning Armenian. As with all stereotypes this view ignored the historical reality behind communal differences. The stereotype allowed resentful Ottomans to overlook the fact that trade and commerce had traditionally been looked down on by Ottomans, so these roles were fulfilled by Armenians, Greeks and other minorities. It also overlooked the fact that for most Armenian pesants (as for other pesants) life was increasingly difficult during the nineteenth century as the Empire disintegrated and repression grew." page 141

As for prestigious professions that was controlled by Turks Stanfor Shaw stated in his book "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey: Volum II" the following:

"Government service remained mainly a Muslim monopoly, with 95.4 percent of the positions being held by Muslims and only 4.6 percent by members of the minorities" . page 242

And how come local police in Izmir were almost all Armenians ??? Why, how many Armenians were there in Izmir ??

[Armenoid]

Degradation? To give them the opportunity be rich? Yes certain ethnic groups focused on certain type of jobs, I am wondering how could those be considered as degradation...
Armenians for example thought themselves always superior or previligied over the other Caucusian CHristians(Georgians) because they were given higher trade opportunities because Armenians were Ottoman citizens.
I think your ideas are driven from a false assumption that "If Turks do something thats always bad for Armenians". The proffessions that you say degrading are the ones that increase intellectual level of a community.
We Turks always thought that we had to do all the dangerous stuff inorder to preserve the wealth and integrity of the Ottoman state, and the other ethnic groups benefited from it. I think it depends on how you look at it.

And as far as the diplomatic and administrative professions yes there were Armenians as well. The right hand of Abdulhamid Khan was an Armenian Minister who was responsible of Ottoman Treasury. During WW-I Armenians served as officers in Gallipoli and in Ottoman Intelleligence units against Brits and French. I once had the photos of local police in Izmir mostly Armenians.This is early 1900s. SO and so forth.

I am really wondering if there is an academic source that really claims that trade and commerce would be degrading professions in Ottoman society.

Chok guzal chok guzal -I agree with everything you said efendi.

Armenians for many hundreds of years had good treatment in Ottoman empire, until late 19 early 20 centuries. Your Turkish people (with the help of you know who) decided we were a danger to your nation so when the time was right you got rid of us. Good for you, you did what you had to do. Now you have a problem, a serious problem. Because we did not forget what you did and we want revenge on everybody involved.

So that makes us enemies