Orhan Pamuk:Hero or Traitor

[Gavur]

Any Turk thats sucsessfull in what he does internationally must be considered a Hero for his people and will be emulated.He puts in his novels whispers of truth some Turks may not understand because they maybe only used to shouting.

[TurQ]

He is just an opportunist and populist guy. He wants to advertise himself, and he is just expressing ideas that he has never ever expressed before, so that he can appear in western media.
He is not a man of ideals. He could be talented writer/author but does not make him a great idealist.
When he signed a contract with US publishers he suddenly changed, thats new him.

If Armenians are OK with him using their cause to profit and make his own advertise, I am fine with it. But he is low in character, he always looks down to ordinary people in Turkey, he is just another elitist.

If there was an option for being Opportunist/Populist I would vote for that, but at this moment I cant say he is either a hero or a traitor.

His case has been dropped, also noone will kill him we all know that. Besides what is the point making such a statement if you will not fight to make your point to the people that you are trying explain your case? I will not make accusations, insults to Orhan Pamuk, but I dont see why he should be a traitor or a hero. To me he is a guy who is the mouthing other people's words and running away from his own people thus a coward. However, everyone has the freedom to name him a hero or a traitor. My vote goes to none.

[TurQ]

Too much of "Midnight express" get real.
He was just being contraversial to advertise himself before the Nobel Prize.
The anti-EU alliance in Turkey wanted to utilize his popularity by opening a case against so that they could harm the EU application process, and Orhan Pamuk utilized this for his own profit. Everyone is happy, As we say in Turkish
One who gives is pleasant, the one who takes it pleasant (Alan memnun veren memnun misali)

I voted that he is a hero because he recognizes the Armenian Genocide, and has written a very influential book about it which forces people to see what happened.

There is nothing to be gained from his going to Turkey and being imprisoned, or worse killed, so why does not doing it make him a coward?

[phantom]

He is just an opportunist and populist guy. He wants to advertise himself, and he is just expressing ideas that he has never ever expressed before, so that he can appear in western media.
He is not a man of ideals. He could be talented writer/author but does not make him a great idealist.
When he signed a contract with US publishers he suddenly changed, thats new him.

If Armenians are OK with him using their cause to profit and make his own advertise, I am fine with it. But he is low in character, he always looks down to ordinary people in Turkey, he is just another elitist.

If there was an option for being Opportunist/Populist I would vote for that, but at this moment I cant say he is either a hero or a traitor.

How do you know all of this? Are you his lover or something? Somehow it appears you've gotten into his and you know what he is thinking and feeling. So what if he's an elitist? He's rich and famous, of course, he's going to be an elitist. Do you think Madonna wants to hang out with you! Give me a break. Orhan said what he felt like saying, a statement that was obviously true. He said it to an obscure Swiss paper one time, it's not like he was going around screaming about the Armenian Genocide. It's not his fault that the retarded Turkish govt. brought criminal charges against him and turned the whole thing into a massive media circus. As usual, you're just trying to belittle anyone who says anything about the Armenians who were slaughtered.

[TurQ]

Interviews with him or his brief life is enough.

And I have taken class from his teacher Hilmi Yavuz in Bogazici Uni. Hilmi YAvuz and Pamuk are friends, and Pamuk's wife is also an exstudent of Hilmi YAvuz. They were close friends for long years. YOu can also say I got some info from Yavuz.

Phantom I have problems with such elitist people who looks down to ordinary people. I dont have problems him being rich or famous. There are lots of other such people.

I dont have problem what he was saying, as I said I wont call him either a hero or a traitor. For me he does not fall into either of the categories. He can say whatever he likes, I am fine with it. He is just being contraversial to get more news coverage and popularity. If I were an Armenian I wouldnt be comfortable about what he is doing. Just look into his life, he always lived with minorities, and yet recently he began talking about minority rights, something smells fishy.

How do you know all of this? Are you his lover or something? Somehow it appears you've gotten into his and you know what he is thinking and feeling. So what if he's an elitist? He's rich and famous, of course, he's going to be an elitist. Do you think Madonna wants to hang out with you! Give me a break. Orhan said what he felt like saying, a statement that was obviously true. He said it to an obscure Swiss paper one time, it's not like he was going around screaming about the Armenian Genocide. It's not his fault that the retarded Turkish govt. brought criminal charges against him and turned the whole thing into a massive media circus. As usual, you're just trying to belittle anyone who says anything about the Armenians who were slaughtered.

[TurQ]

I am not discussing what he says is true or not. Thats not the issue.
He knows what will provoke Turkish autorities and he uses this for his own popularity. Like the progressive author being prosecuted by his own government scenario. The guys who are against EU membership knows that by opening a case against him they could derail the EU application process. So they opened this case against him, hired some provacateurs to attack him before his court appearance. These are classic scenarios that we are so familiar with.

He got lots of interview requests after this incident, US senate and EU parliment held sessions about this, both sides Pamuk and his prosecuters are happy. There are lots of other autors or people saying more severe things than what Pamuk actually said, for example Akcam or Fatma Muge, do you know of any cases opened against them because of Armenian issue? NO because at this moment they wont provide such media frenzy like Pamuk's case, may be in future.
As I said at this moment alan memnun veren memnun guzel kardesim, both sides got what they desired to get.

He said it to an obscure Swiss paper one time, it's not like he was going around screaming about the Armenian Genocide. It's not his fault that the retarded Turkish govt. brought criminal charges against him and turned the whole thing into a massive media circus. As usual, you're just trying to belittle anyone who says anything about the Armenians who were slaughtered.

[phantom]

I am not discussing what he says is true or not. Thats not the issue.
He knows what will provoke Turkish autorities and he uses this for his own popularity. Like the progressive author being prosecuted by his own government scenario. The guys who are against EU membership knows that by opening a case against him they could derail the EU application process. So they opened this case against him, hired some provacateurs to attack him before his court appearance. These are classic scenarios that we are so familiar with.

He got lots of interview requests after this incident, US senate and EU parliment held sessions about this, both sides Pamuk and his prosecuters are happy. There are lots of other autors or people saying more severe things than what Pamuk actually said, for example Akcam or Fatma Muge, do you know of any cases opened against them because of Armenian issue? NO because at this moment they wont provide such media frenzy like Pamuk's case, may be in future.
As I said at this moment alan memnun veren memnun guzel kardesim, both sides got what they desired to get.

Well, I just don't understand how he could have known that making such a relatively benign comment (remember he didn't use Genocide word) to a little known paper outside Switzerland would lead to this much attention. Especially given that others had made much more serious comments in larger media outlets, as you pointed out, without any fuss from the Turkish authorities. I think you're blowing his intentions way out of proportion, without any proof to support the theory. As usual, I respect your right to an opinion, I just don't respect opinions that lack a factual basis. Your opinion, in essence, is mere conjecture. But I do agree with you that he can hardly be classified as hero or villain. He's simply what he is: a well-known and respected author of fiction.

By the way, even if he is an elitist, at least his book Snow, provides a deep sense of what it's like to be a Turk in a poor and neglected eastern province (I'm currently reading the book). I think he had to do some soul-searching and research to get into the minds of the people that he is writing about in that book. Thus, he must be interested in these people and in telling the world about their lives and struggles. So in that sense, even if he is an elitist, he is doing much to give the world a sense of what life is like in this neglected part of the world.

[TurQ]

Well, it is common for such intellectuals from countries like us to behave like in this manner.

If you closely follow current Turkish events, you would understand what I say. The main motive is not Orhan Pamuk or Hrant Dink, these groups who are against EU membership wants something sensational, and they open such cases, like Pamuk's or Dink's cases. Look at what happened during his court appereance. There was such an "angry" protesters in front of the Sisli court house, but some how there was "NO" protests or anything in that kind when the case was dropped against him. This was a plot, and Pamuk is comfortable with it, those groups benefited from it, Pamuk did as well.

Elif Shafak gave a wonderful interview to Nuriye Akman like 4-5 months ago in Zaman newspaper. She said "we dont need heros to solve the Armenian problem", Pamuk said "1 million Armenians killed and nobody dares to speak but me" as if he is the only one who can "challange" the autorities.
Only cheap heros speak like this in my opinion.

He knows the sensitivitites and he knows that comment will attract such a reaction, I have lots of examples for it but it is not our topic. I can provide you evidences about how he changed after he signed contracts with western publication companies.

Well, I just don't understand how he could have known that making such a relatively benign comment (remember he didn't use Genocide word) to a little known paper outside Switzerland would lead to this much attention. Especially given that others had made much more serious comments in larger media outlets, as you pointed out, without any fuss from the Turkish authorities. I think you're blowing his intentions way out of proportion, without any proof to support the theory. As usual, I respect your right to an opinion, I just don't respect opinions that lack a factual basis. Your opinion, in essence, is mere conjecture. But I do agree with you that he can hardly be classified as hero or villain. He's simply what he is: a well-known and respected author of fiction.

By the way, even if he is an elitist, at least his book Snow, provides a deep sense of what it's like to be a Turk in a poor and neglected eastern province (I'm currently reading the book). I think he had to do some soul-searching and research to get into the minds of the people that he is writing about in that book. Thus, he must be interested in these people and in telling the world about their lives and struggles. So in that sense, even if he is an elitist, he is doing much to give the world a sense of what life is like in this neglected part of the world.

[TurQ]

This is irrelevant:
When was the last time that you were in Turkey? I mean at what age did you leave? Did you have same kind of feelings when you were living in Istanbul?
Did you feel discriminated or feel the otherness while you were living in Istanbul? Does your mother and father or siblings(if you have any) feel the same or close to how you feel in general about Turks and Armenian relations?
May be it sounds meaningless but I am wondering if as the generations pass people feel more distanced or not( I mean those who live outside Turkey).


There was a series of series published in Radikal news paper about being Armenian in Turkey and in general Armenians of Turkey. Did you read it?

Well, I just don't understand how he could have known that making such a relatively benign comment (remember he didn't use Genocide word) to a little known paper outside Switzerland would lead to this much attention. Especially given that others had made much more serious comments in larger media outlets, as you pointed out, without any fuss from the Turkish authorities. I think you're blowing his intentions way out of proportion, without any proof to support the theory. As usual, I respect your right to an opinion, I just don't respect opinions that lack a factual basis. Your opinion, in essence, is mere conjecture. But I do agree with you that he can hardly be classified as hero or villain. He's simply what he is: a well-known and respected author of fiction.

By the way, even if he is an elitist, at least his book Snow, provides a deep sense of what it's like to be a Turk in a poor and neglected eastern province (I'm currently reading the book). I think he had to do some soul-searching and research to get into the minds of the people that he is writing about in that book. Thus, he must be interested in these people and in telling the world about their lives and struggles. So in that sense, even if he is an elitist, he is doing much to give the world a sense of what life is like in this neglected part of the world.

[1.5 million]

Pamuk is neither and is not at all the issue...the issue is how the Turks react/reacted to him)and his truthful and in a normal place rather benign statement)...this is what is telling...such as TurQ here who is happy to attack Pamuk individually and attempt to defame him (when I would argue that the character and motivations of many Tuskish Politicians and academics are likely orders of magnitude more suspect)....oh and of course..in the meantime the message of his statement and the Turkish freak show surounding it are ignored. If I were a concietious Turk - as I suspect TurQ would claim to be - I would concentrate more on these very real issues that have some relevance rather then join the tabloid smear campaign of a respected and reputable Turkish author. What he and other Turks are doing only confirms what we know...and just makes them all look worse. TurQ correctly highlights the motivations of some of those who have pursued Pamuk and who have made this all such an issue...however he fails to realize that his own motivations and positions are also on display - and he lessens his case for being taken seriously (or thought as honest in his claims) as a result.