The Turks

[Kharpert]

And human rights are not given by choice, they should never be stolen from someone whatever or whoever he is.

Do you really believe you can only achieve civil rights through violence and/or terrorism? You seem to think declaring yourself an enemy of the Turkish state will grant Kurds additional rights.

[elendil]

You make a statement about Christians always harboring a hate for the Ottomans after they conquered. I partially agree with you. Greeks and Armenians obviously were horrified that their Byzantine Empire, another multi-ethnic empire, in which these two peoples dominated religious, cultural, political and economic affairs had suddenly been torn apart by an invading Mongol army. The consequences were enormous on a global scale and dominated Western minds for a century thereafter, even overshadowing the discovery of the New World.

Though the Ottomans eventually developed a complex an advanced civilization, the beginnings were incredible for Christians to accept. A hostile, nomad, foreign power was suddenly ruling over what was up until that time, Europe's most culturaly advanced civilisation. So hate was the obvious consequence.

On the other side of the coin, Turks came to resent the Christian attitude of superiority and the reality of Christians' higher standard of living in many parts of the empire due to their artisan and merchant occupations. The co-existance was often uneasy. Numerous firmans, like the rezi, by various sultans tried to promote Turkish-muslim economic interests at the expense of Christians like banning Christians from certain trades.

By the 1800s, nationalism gained strength around the world as many subjugated peoples aspired to self-rule in the belief that a brighter future lay in independence. These feelings were often taen advantage of by the Great Powers of the time to weaken the integrity of their rivals. Russia towards Austrian-Hungarian and the Ottoman Empires, Prussia in efforts to absorb the other German states and dominate central europe, etc. In Ottoman lands nationalism found fertile ground in part due to the reasons I mentioned above.

My point . . . mutual animosity existed, on both Turkish-muslims and Christians, it was not just a one-sided affair. Why did the Young Turks decide to resort to massacres, later to be classified as genocide, while population exchanges from Greece to Turkey were largely peaceful? I personally have spoken to Turks that were born and raised in Greece that decided to move to Turkey during the exchanges, in this case it was a decision not a deportation.

Young Turks did resort to massacres because they did not know another way to deal with rebellions regarding nationalis. which was a very new concept in the world even more so for the Ottoman Empire. Though my answer has been short relative to your post, the answer is simple...

[Vogelgrippe]

The real revolution can only exist nowdays in our hearts and our memorys which are positively evolving.That way in the end you will win by owning your own existance and not having to apologies for any of it.Thats the challange for each and everyone of us Although can be a cheap thrill to buy-in or to sell-out our principles its all bosh,bosh,hepsi bosh(unfulfiling,unfulfilling all are unfulfilling)

Gavurcum, Rudo said it almost all. Our secular system is under attack by Islamists and Kurdish Seperatists. You may one way or another symphatize with our post-modern mollahs who scream and sell more democracy, but I believe you are intelligent enough to understand their true goals. Democracy for them is the right of women to wear the headscarf in the university, but democracy for them is NOT the right of lovers to walk hand-in-hand on the streets. The more they stay in power, the more mistakes they commit in this respect, and hopefully the Turkish electorate will evaluate this insincerety smartly.

I kind of sense that you, as an Armenian who was born as a Turkish citizen, Turkish Republic embodies negative and depressing qualities. I regret, at least as much as you do, that we haven't changed things for the better much earlier, and without the pressure of European or American governments. But trust me, our post (or should I say 'pseudo')-modern mollahs are much much worse to deal with. You might just support a revolutionary experiment in Turkey out of your anger with the past, but whatever replaces the current system will definitely be more horrifying.

Onun disinda haklisin, bu islerin cogu bos. Hangi fikri olesiye savunursan savun, senin uzerinden cebini dolduran biri mutlaka olacaktir.

Apart from that, you are right, most of this things are unfulfilling. Regardless of which ideology you support to death, there will always be someone who will fill his pockets over your dead body.

[katsaridas]

Young Turks did resort to massacres because they did not know another way to deal with rebellions regarding nationalis. which was a very new concept in the world even more so for the Ottoman Empire. Though my answer has been short relative to your post, the answer is simple...

short and sweet, kill now ask questions later - it served well for centuries, right? why change now

[kerkuk_kurdista]

Do you really believe you can only achieve civil rights through violence and/or terrorism? You seem to think declaring yourself an enemy of the Turkish state will grant Kurds additional rights.

What violence?
PKK started to attacks since 1984, and before that?
Since the creation of Turkey, the country has been in denial of Kurds, their culture, their language, long before PKK started. Why didn't Turkey recognise us in 1923? 1933? 1943? 1953? 1963? 1973? and even today everybody in Turkey is by definition a TURK.
It's easy to answer everything concerning Kurds: PKK PKK PKK PKK PKK PKK PKK.
PKK is an organisation I don't like, I am with you the party is very violent and uses terrible tactics to achieve it's goals.
But you cannot deny this is just a result of decades of massacring Kurds, denying Kurds. This does not make me a PKK-supporter, this is only logic. Everything has 2 sides.
As long as Turkey continues it's dirty policies concerning minorities, I will never support Turkey. Because if I do that, it's like a jew asking Nazi Germany for having rights. Reforms is what Turkey needs, and those must be BIG REFORMS.
I am speaking from a Kurdish point of view, I want to live side by side with Turks........as long as I can speak and learn the language our ancestors spoken, as long as I can wear traditional Kurdish clothes, as long as our own cities and villages have good infrastructure.
But can you see that these are just dreams, and do not think Turkey would ever let this, so Turkey fuels the Kurdish dream for an independent state day by day, and keeps asking why Kurds are separatist.

Greets

[Gavur]

Gavurcum, Rudo said it almost all. Our secular system is under attack by Islamists and Kurdish Seperatists. You may one way or another symphatize with our post-modern mollahs who scream and sell more democracy, but I believe you are intelligent enough to understand their true goals. Democracy for them is the right of women to wear the headscarf in the university, but democracy for them is NOT the right of lovers to walk hand-in-hand on the streets. The more they stay in power, the more mistakes they commit in this respect, and hopefully the Turkish electorate will evaluate this insincerety smartly.

I kind of sense that you, as an Armenian who was born as a Turkish citizen, Turkish Republic embodies negative and depressing qualities. I regret, at least as much as you do, that we haven't changed things for the better much earlier, and without the pressure of European or American governments. But trust me, our post (or should I say 'pseudo')-modern mollahs are much much worse to deal with. You might just support a revolutionary experiment in Turkey out of your anger with the past, but whatever replaces the current system will definitely be more horrifying.

.

In contrast to the rest, the Islam thats being sold (expertly I might add) is very moderate ,and thats muzic to the Neo-cons ears.They feel that secular state of Turkey has served its purpose (they have other routes to transfer drugs and contraband now)What they really can use is a "moderate" Islamic country that will enable them to control rest of Islam and you must know that they have the ability to put anybody they want in power.I think thats their objective! To break up Iraq and solidify an "Moderate Islamic"state in Turkey.

[Kharpert]

Thanks for the response, kerkuk. Good points.

[Hovik]

What violence?
PKK started to attacks since 1984, and before that?
Since the creation of Turkey, the country has been in denial of Kurds, their culture, their language, long before PKK started. Why didn't Turkey recognise us in 1923? 1933? 1943? 1953? 1963? 1973?

Exactly,

I know where your coming from. Armenians are constantly attacked by Turks who say we were rebellious, we sided with the Russians, Turks or Muslims (depending on who makes the statement) died too (and they don't like to be specific and point out that most of them were likely military, who died fighting in the outskirts of the empire during the WAR).

But what about before 1915? What led up to that? Did a handful of freedom fighters just come out of the woodwork for no reason? or were they the last remaining members of their families who had been wiped out in the decades of massacre and violent oppression leading up to then?

Kurds have dealt with the same type of ignorance. A failure to look critically at the situation by the Turkish side. Excellent points, thanks for sharing...

[TurQ]

Gullay GOkturk once said,"our state is always under attack, there is always an 'internal threat' ". She means that a certain elite holds and controls the dynamics of the state dvice and they are not interested in giving up their position to the control of the nation.

I believe that too, and different portions of the society is agitated that they are under attack by those who dont share their political views, i.e nationalists believe that they are under communist attack, communist believe that they are under fasist attack, leftists believe that Islamic fundementalism is a real threat, conservatives believe that Turkish culture and religous values are under attack.


I am saddened to see that my compatriots express such fear here(no offense Vogelgrip +Rudo), but as long as people from different views and political groups dont try to understand each other and spread fear and feel threatened, I dont think Turkey will ever have the chance of stabilty and progress. The interesting part is people really feel that threat but when asked in general they give abstract definitions of that threat, have little if not no info about other political views. Thats my humble opinion, but this immense skepticism about "others" really bothers me.

And unfortunately,Turkey are being changed by Islamist Revolutionist.Turks use for that:''Karşı Devrim'',you know.

Turkey now has hard time.But it will be harder ....

[Gavur]

Great post Kerkuk I'm sorry I was occupied with the other part of this inter twined thread.