Turkey and the EU

[Joseph]

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=50800

Apparently Armenians will be blamed for Turkey not getting in the EU.

[Hovik]

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/a...?enewsid=50800

Apparently Armenians will be blamed for Turkey not getting in the EU.

Thats a blame I'd be proud to take

[Joseph]

Thats a blame I'd be proud to take

At the same time though, if Turkey does not get into the EU, they should know it's because of their policies and not the work of Armenians or other minorities. Realistically, I don't think the Armenian factor has much to do with the EU's final decision.

[hitite]

That T.D.News IMO does not reflect the general attitude towards the EU in Turkey. A.Genocide recognition as a prerequisite to EU accession does not exist so Turks dont care and think about it very much. Greek Cypriots who are pressing to open Turkish ports to their aircraft and vessels and the Kurdish issue however do cause anger since all this is entangled in the double standard ridden hypocritical EU attitude towards Turkey. The only Turks that think and talk about Armenians and a "so called Genocide" nowadays are those idiots that go busting conferences and slap around old women and try to use this sort of false natioanlism to gain political support.

Another reason Turks are not as keen as they used to be towards the EU is because of Turkeys recent economic development and globalization in general. Turkey has been growing very fast lately and this has given some confidence at least in the Turkish psyche and not in reality to negotiate on better terms and when some countries like France and Austria almost openly declare that they may not ever accept Turkey the Turkish people have started to say "well F..K them, we do not want to be where we are not wanted". Globalisation has led to more Turkish people, businessmen, artists etc. to go to Europe ever more often thus revealing that Europe is not a very hospitable place after all and life is not that much easier than it is in Turkey. I too as a perosn who goes to Europe many times a year would never want to live there. Turkey itself has started to receive illegal immigrants from Africa and Asia so less and less people in Turkey will dream of living in Europe.

So Hovic, before you drown in your pride about a non-existing Armenian threat to Turkish accession into the EU you might want to reassess if such an accession which would give partial power to an Armenian loving EU which to a certain degree could actually dictate recognition of the Armenian Genocide really is harmful to you.

Another reason is that the regular man on the street in Turkey believes that "the current government in Turkey has sold out Turkey to the Europeans and is letting go of its sovereignty which it has built on the blood of millions of martyrs". Turks cannot envisage a partial ceding of osvereignty to a higher body but if they want to join the EU eventually they must learn that is part of the deal.

[Hovik]

A.Genocide recognition as a prerequisite to EU accession does not exist so Turks dont care and think about it very much.

Hitite,
As I know, your above statement is false. I believe it was around 1986 when the EU officials stated that Turkey wouldn't be allowed membership until the AG was recognized. I don't have time to dig up the source now, but maybe one of my friends Joeseph or Kharpert might help me with it, or you could try to dig it up yourself.

Hovik

[Hovik]

Hitite,
As I know, your above statement is false. I believe it was around 1986 when the EU officials stated that Turkey wouldn't be allowed membership until the AG was recognized. I don't have time to dig up the source now, but maybe one of my friends Joeseph or Kharpert might help me with it, or you could try to dig it up yourself.

Hovik

Ok, here it is, I found it for you

http://www.eafjd.org/article.php3?id_article=215&lang=en

Text as follows:
"European Parliament reaffirms recognition of Armenian genocide as precondition to Turkish accession to Europe




Wednesday September 28, 2005-The European Armenian Federation reports that the European Parliament voted on a resolution regarding the opening of accession negotiations with Turkey, stating that the Turkish authorities still did not satisfy the requirements concerning the Armenian questions such as they are expressed by the European Parliament in its resolution of June 18, 1987. With a vote of 356 for, 181 against and 125 abstentions, the European Assembly resolution "calls on Turkey to recognize the Genocide of the Armenians," and considers this act a "prerequisite to accession to the European Union."

The day before the vote, the parties present at the European Parliament had agreed on a compromise text that made no mention of the Armenian issues; the final resolution adopted by a majority of Parliament reflects two amendments proposed by a group of deputies (Pierre Moscovici, Harlem Desir, Marie Arlette Carlotti and Martine Roure, among others - PSE)].

"This final call of the European Parliament before the negotiations with Turkey should serve as direction to the Council of the Union and the European Commission," stated Hilda Tchoboian, President of the European Armenian Federation. "Europeans can have confidence in the effectiveness of the negotiations only if their leaders represent their aspirations. We therefore urge the Foreign Ministers of the European Union to tackle the question of the Genocide in their October 3rd meeting in Luxembourg.”

[phantom]

I must do some corrections.

I don't think that Armenians are making special efforts to prevent the EU membership of Turkey. But some individuals are undoubtedly trying to protest it or to do small amount of efforts that are of course in vain. I also think that some Armenians are aware of that, Turkey's EU membership can be very useful for Armenia.

I also want to say that this is a very absurd dispute between Turkey and diaspora or Armenia. Instead of insisting on Turkey trying to make your opinions recognize , both side must find a useful way.

Firstly, Turkey-Armenia borders must be opened. The trade and culturel activities must start between two country. And Armenians should begin to play an active role again in many domains of the Turkey. Turkey must let Armenians get involved in tradition, cultural activities and even politics. And the totalitarian ethnic constraction of Turkey must be set again including Kurds and the other ethnics. Of course there must be a big intellectual change in Turkey for making those things come to the reality. Surely it will take a lot of time. But I am sure the only solution is this.

I am sure any pressure on Turkey will always be reacted.

I like your attitude. Also, I agree that the first step is for Turkey to open the border. I don't know if you know this, but the government of Armenia has said over and over again that it is willing to engage in diplomatic ties with Turkey with no preconditions, and that it urges Turkey to open the border without any preconditions by either side. In other words, Armenia is saying exactly what you are saying, which is that Turkey should open the borders whether or not it acknowledges the Genocide.

[Vogelgrippe]

I must do some corrections.

I don't think that Armenians are making special efforts to prevent the EU membership of Turkey. But some individuals are undoubtedly trying to protest it or to do small amount of efforts that are of course in vain. I also think that some Armenians are aware of that, Turkey's EU membership can be very useful for Armenia.

I also want to say that this is a very absurd dispute between Turkey and diaspora or Armenia. Instead of insisting on Turkey trying to make your opinions recognize , both side must find a useful way.

Firstly, Turkey-Armenia borders must be opened. The trade and culturel activities must start between two country. And Armenians should begin to play an active role again in many domains of the Turkey. Turkey must let Armenians get involved in tradition, cultural activities and even politics. And the totalitarian ethnic constraction of Turkey must be set again including Kurds and the other ethnics. Of course there must be a big intellectual change in Turkey for making those things come to the reality. Surely it will take a lot of time. But I am sure the only solution is this.

I am sure any pressure on Turkey will always be reacted.

Idealistically, Turkish-Armenian border should be opened. However, there are few sensitivities and difficulties stemming from the Turkish side;

- There is a risk that this Turkish gesture will go unnoticed. Among Armenians in general, as well as among Armenians here in this forum, there is a widespread belief that each Turkish goodwill gesture is nothing but a PR show for the EU. Therefore, it is possible, if not certain, that Armenia will not even bother to reciprocate this act of goodwill, mainly because its foreign policy is based upon the assumed Turkish lack of goodwill.

- There is an influential Azeri lobby in Turkey. Contrary to some Armenians, who claim that entire Azerbaijan historically belongs to Armenia, Azeris have more modest claims. They just want that their occupied lands should be returned to them. While I personally believe that they are ready to make some concessions regarding Karabagh, they are more strict about other occupied regions of Azerbaijan proper.

- The completion of Baku-Tiflis-Ceyhan pipeline furthermore gives Azeibaijan the upper hand in influencing Turkish foreign policy. Even though one should not disregard the emotional and fraternal bond between Turkey and Azerbaijan, one should also notice that the relative influence & pressure capacity of Azerbaijan is increasing in bilateral relations with Turkey

My personal opinion is blockading and economically weaker neighbor (read: Turkey) , as well as occupying the territories of a neighbor (read:Armenia) are ugly acts regardless of how nicely you redress and package it. I agree therefore agree with you that both should end soon, while I disagree with you about who should take the first step.

[hitite]

Hitite,
As I know, your above statement is false. I believe it was around 1986 when the EU officials stated that Turkey wouldn't be allowed membership until the AG was recognized. I don't have time to dig up the source now, but maybe one of my friends Joeseph or Kharpert might help me with it, or you could try to dig it up yourself. Hovik

Hovik you are mistaken. The European Parliaments vote is not leagally binding and amounts to nothing. It is a reccomendatory agreement therefore strictly political and may change any time in the future. Furthermore you also somehow do not prefer to state that in 2003 two Armeninans from France filed a lawsuit at the European Court of Justice claiming EU's granting Turkey candidacy for the EU was against the 1987 decision. The courts final decision was as follows:
"The European Court of Justice has taken its decision after a detailed assessment in December of 2003. The Court first notified the plaintiff and the defendant of its decision. Later, the Court announced its decision to the public opinion.

In its decision, the Court said that the application of Armenian plaintiff did not have any legal base, therefore, the reasoned verdict was announced in line with Article 111 of the Court regulation without listening to the defendant.

Noting that the decision of the EP dated 1987 was "only and fully political" and that the recommendatory decision did not have a power of sanction, the European Court of Justice said that the EP could change the decision anytime and that the decision did not have any legal influence.

The Court underlined that it was wrongful to launch a legal initiative by relying on such a decision of the EP.

The Court considered the plaintiff's allegation that Armenian society suffered moral harm since the Turkish state did not recognize the so-called Armenian genocide, baseless.

The Court rejected these requests of the plaintiff, and sentenced them to pay the trial cost."

http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=2004030423463123

Neither the Maastricht criteria nor other political critera state recognition of the A.G. as a precondition. The 3rd of October has long passed and Turkey has already started accession talks so you can kiss Kansas good-bye. This comes to show us all again that Europeans dont care a rats ass about the A.G. unless they can use or abuse it. Sad but true.

[phantom]

Hovik you are mistaken. The European Parliaments vote is not leagally binding and amounts to nothing. It is a reccomendatory agreement therefore strictly political and may change any time in the future. Furthermore you also somehow do not prefer to state that in 2003 two Armeninans from France filed a lawsuit at the European Court of Justice claiming EU's granting Turkey candidacy for the EU was against the 1987 decision. The courts final decision was as follows:
"The European Court of Justice has taken its decision after a detailed assessment in December of 2003. The Court first notified the plaintiff and the defendant of its decision. Later, the Court announced its decision to the public opinion.

In its decision, the Court said that the application of Armenian plaintiff did not have any legal base, therefore, the reasoned verdict was announced in line with Article 111 of the Court regulation without listening to the defendant.

Noting that the decision of the EP dated 1987 was "only and fully political" and that the recommendatory decision did not have a power of sanction, the European Court of Justice said that the EP could change the decision anytime and that the decision did not have any legal influence.

The Court underlined that it was wrongful to launch a legal initiative by relying on such a decision of the EP.

The Court considered the plaintiff's allegation that Armenian society suffered moral harm since the Turkish state did not recognize the so-called Armenian genocide, baseless.

The Court rejected these requests of the plaintiff, and sentenced them to pay the trial cost."

http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=2004030423463123

Neither the Maastricht criteria nor other political critera state recognition of the A.G. as a precondition. The 3rd of October has long passed and Turkey has already started accession talks so you can kiss Kansas good-bye. This comes to show us all again that Europeans dont care a rats ass about the A.G. unless they can use or abuse it. Sad but true.

I think it would be interesting to read the actual ruling of the court rather than a Turkish newspaper interpretation of it. The ruling seems to be based more on a lack of standing by the Armenian plaintiffs rather than any review of the merits of the Armenian plaintiffs' claims. In fact, even the Turkish newspaper interpretation states that the court did not even consider the Turkish arguments. From that article that you linked, it cannot be said that the European Union has not conditioned acceptance of the Armenian Genocide as part of Turkey's responsibilities before entering the EU. Personally, I doubt that the EU will actually enforce such a condition on Turkey or that Turkey would accept such a condition anytime soon. The Turkish government is still too belligerent and full of false pride to accept such a thing even though it would be the right thing to do.