Genocide Discussion Separated from Patriotic Thread

[Anatolian-Heart]

These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. - Ataturk
Hello Hovik;
I am glad that finally I could find a 'serious' forum to discuss.
Firstly, I'd like to greet all with respect on this forum. My real dream is to see that Armenians and Turks are friends again...As all of us being the children of each of these nations, we truly deserve this.And also we owe it to our children's future.Negative approaches proved to bring more negativity, wheras positive approaches allways bring more positivity. And I'd like to be honest here, and will take things from positive approach.Best Regards

[Joseph]

These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. - Ataturk
Hello Hovik;
I am glad that finally I could find a 'serious' forum to discuss.
Firstly, I'd like to greet all with respect on this forum. My real dream is to see that Armenians and Turks are friends again...As all of us being the children of each of these nations, we truly deserve this.And also we owe it to our children's future.Negative approaches proved to bring more negativity, wheras positive approaches allways bring more positivity. And I'd like to be honest here, and will take things from positive approach.Best Regards

I look forward to seeing what you have to say.

[bell-the-cat]

Hello Hovik;
I am glad that finally I could find a 'serious' forum to discuss.
Firstly, I'd like to greet all with respect on this forum. My real dream is to see that Armenians and Turks are friends again...As all of us being the children of each of these nations, we truly deserve this.And also we owe it to our children's future.Negative approaches proved to bring more negativity, wheras positive approaches allways bring more positivity. And I'd like to be honest here, and will take things from positive approach.Best Regards

Top of the list of positive approaches from the Turkish State would be for Turkey to open the border with Armenia.

But your small positive approach will help too!

[Anatolian-Heart]

Hello Joseph and bell-the-cat,
Firstly I'd like to say that Armenians are not 'foreigners' to Turks. They are 'ours' and we are 'theirs'.This is like that at least for the last 1000 years.The word Armenian reminds me of the 'sympathetic' and skillful shop owners in Grand Bazaar (Kapalicarsi) in Istanbul nowadays. How can I possibly think that they are foreigners? I should also indicate here that one of the best friends of my 9 year old son in Istanbul, is also an Armenian boy who lives just one floor down in the same building...
I do acknowledge that very bad things happened in 1915-1916 (right middle of WW-I) in at that time's Ottoman State. Many Armenians died (some were killed by the other Ottoman citizens(specifically Turks and Kurds) and some were by infectious sicknesses during their deportation to Syria& Lebanon regions of Ottoman State). It is a big tragedy, needless to say.How sad I feel when I think of them.
Let me try to describe a bit of the background of these years: The Armenian deportation was ordered by at that time's Ottomant government's and Young Turks party leaders: trio of Talat, Jamal and Enver Pashas- who kept the sole power (pacifizing the Sultan, with a kind of coup d'etat). They had led the Ottoman State to a rapid dissolvation by entering into WW-I in 1914 (ref. Goben and Breaslau battleships of Germany bombed Russia's Black Sea cities, with Ottoman Flag...), just after the Balkan Wars in 1912-1913 which they lost all Balkans clearly.
Just after the WW-I, this trio had fled from the country to abroad, where they were assasinated and killed soon after...If they wouldn't have fled; they would possibly be trialed and punished for the destruction they caused in Ottoman state, more specifically for the deaths of approx. 3 millions of Ottoman citizens (2.5 millions Turks& Kurds and 0,5 million Armenians, in Balkans, North africa, Egypt, Yemen, Dardanelles, Caucausus& East/N.East Anatolia). What a tragedy! I'm filled with grief and sorrow thinking of their losses. I've also lost my grand grand father in Dardanelles in 1915)...
Honestly speaking, I've also made a swift check in the world modern history; and could not find another State who was attacked by multitude of countries simultaneously at the same time! (1. Dardanelles (1915-1916): France, Great Britain, Anzacs-Australians&New Zealanders, British Indians. 2.Libya-Tripoli (1911):Italy 3.Kut-al-Amara/Iraq (1915-1916):G.Britain, British Indians 4. Baghdad (1917):G.Britain, British Indians, 5.Caucasus Campaign (1914-1918):Russia =>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Campaign.....
May I also kindly ask to review the Original Deportation Law made by Ottoman State and your opinnions on it => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehcir_Law

Best Regards

[Hovik]

Hello Joseph and bell-the-cat,
Firstly I'd like to say that Armenians are not 'foreigners' to Turks. They are 'ours' and we are 'theirs'.This is like that at least for the last 1000 years.The word Armenian reminds me of the 'sympathetic' and skillful shop owners in Grand Bazaar (Kapalicarsi) in Istanbul nowadays. How can I possibly think that they are foreigners? I should also indicate here that one of the best friends of my 9 year old son in Istanbul, is also an Armenian boy who lives just one floor down in the same building...
I do acknowledge that very bad things happened in 1915-1916 (right middle of WW-I) in at that time's Ottoman State. Many Armenians died (some were killed by the other Ottoman citizens(specifically Turks and Kurds) and some were by infectious sicknesses during their deportation to Syria& Lebanon regions of Ottoman State). It is a big tragedy, needless to say.How sad I feel when I think of them.
Let me try to describe a bit of the background of these years: The Armenian deportation was ordered by at that time's Ottomant government's and Young Turks party leaders: trio of Talat, Jamal and Enver Pashas- who kept the sole power (pacifizing the Sultan, with a kind of coup d'etat). They had led the Ottoman State to a rapid dissolvation by entering into WW-I in 1914 (ref. Goben and Breaslau battleships of Germany bombed Russia's Black Sea cities, with Ottoman Flag...), just after the Balkan Wars in 1912-1913 which they lost all Balkans clearly.
Just after the WW-I, this trio had fled from the country to abroad, where they were assasinated and killed soon after...If they wouldn't have fled; they would possibly be trialed and punished for the destruction they caused in Ottoman state, more specifically for the deaths of approx. 3 millions of Ottoman citizens (2.5 millions Turks& Kurds and 0,5 million Armenians, in Balkans, North africa, Egypt, Yemen, Dardanelles, Caucausus& East/N.East Anatolia). What a tragedy! I'm filled with grief and sorrow thinking of their losses. I've also lost my grand grand father in Dardanelles in 1915)...
Honestly speaking, I've also made a swift check in the world modern history; and could not find another State who was attacked by multitude of countries simultaneously at the same time! (1. Dardanelles (1915-1916): France, Great Britain, Anzacs-Australians&New Zealanders, British Indians. 2.Libya-Tripoli (1911):Italy 3.Kut-al-Amara/Iraq (1915-1916):G.Britain, British Indians 4. Baghdad (1917):G.Britain, British Indians, 5.Caucasus Campaign (1914-1918):Russia =>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Campaign.....
May I also kindly ask to review the Original Deportation Law made by Ottoman State and your opinnions on it => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehcir_Law

Best Regards

Welcome to the forum,

I dont know if your post had an actual conclusion, but I'm trying to figure out where you got your "0.5 Million Armenians" figure from? Search in this forum for the article on Talaat Pasha's "Black Book" which will automatically expand this number to close to 1 million DEPORTED ALONE Armenians, this isn't taking into any consideration those who never made it on the death marches: Those who were massacred en masse, those who were burned alive in their churches and homes, and all the thousands of other methods used by the murderers to rid the land of Armenians...

[Hovik]

These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. - Ataturk
Hello Hovik;
I am glad that finally I could find a 'serious' forum to discuss.
Firstly, I'd like to greet all with respect on this forum. My real dream is to see that Armenians and Turks are friends again...As all of us being the children of each of these nations, we truly deserve this.And also we owe it to our children's future.Negative approaches proved to bring more negativity, wheras positive approaches allways bring more positivity. And I'd like to be honest here, and will take things from positive approach.Best Regards

Didn't see this post first,

Again, welcome to the forum. I look forward to your participation in positive, honest and intellectual conversations.

[Anatolian-Heart]

Hovik,

I will try to keep a good level of discussion on here. Ajitation of those events happened nearly a century ago, does not bring anything new to our discussion, but just can fuel the blind hatred and aggresivity...I acknowledge the death of the many Armenian Ottomans; but do you also acknowledge the death of many Turks during the same years! If you have the free will to open discussion -intellectual but not low-level discussion-
Please do recognize that also some Armenians clearly formed armed organisations to fight against their own State, on the side of Russia ! (and later on on the side of France). I am sure you have heard about Tashnak-sudiun, Hinchak etc. Havent they burned many Turkish and Kurdish villages into ashes, people inside mosques and homes were burned. I am sure you have already the seen the photo of 'the pile of hundreds of cut-off heads of muslims', neatly arranged and took the photo by Tashnak members...But as said, werent there massacres? yes of course, both sides had done it...But this is never a genocide! Only the related Armenians to the revolts waere affected...Majority of Armenians living in Istanbul was not touched at all...Otherways, would there be a 100 000 armenians living in Istanbul nowadays, in prosperity? And one of the 4 grand Patriarchy of Armeians would stil be left in Istanbul?? Anyway, my intention here again, is not to revive the bloody bad memories of the past. But rather, to try to propose something new and useful for our kids to live in peace...
But we should see what really happened, without ajitations...

[bell-the-cat]

I will try to keep a good level of discussion on here.

His "good level of discussion" lasted, predictably, for all of two posts.

I guess his heart wasn't in it.

[phantom]

Hovik,

I will try to keep a good level of discussion on here. Ajitation of those events happened nearly a century ago, does not bring anything new to our discussion, but just can fuel the blind hatred and aggresivity...I acknowledge the death of the many Armenian Ottomans; but do you also acknowledge the death of many Turks during the same years! If you have the free will to open discussion -intellectual but not low-level discussion-
Please do recognize that also some Armenians clearly formed armed organisations to fight against their own State, on the side of Russia ! (and later on on the side of France). I am sure you have heard about Tashnak-sudiun, Hinchak etc. Havent they burned many Turkish and Kurdish villages into ashes, people inside mosques and homes were burned. I am sure you have already the seen the photo of 'the pile of hundreds of cut-off heads of muslims', neatly arranged and took the photo by Tashnak members...But as said, werent there massacres? yes of course, both sides had done it...But this is never a genocide! Only the related Armenians to the revolts waere affected...Majority of Armenians living in Istanbul was not touched at all...Otherways, would there be a 100 000 armenians living in Istanbul nowadays, in prosperity? And one of the 4 grand Patriarchy of Armeians would stil be left in Istanbul?? Anyway, my intention here again, is not to revive the bloody bad memories of the past. But rather, to try to propose something new and useful for our kids to live in peace...
But we should see what really happened, without ajitations...

You think 100,000 Armenians living in Turkey is a lot? That land is where our roots are, where we lived for almost 3000 years until 1915. Now there are just 100,000 living in Turkey and 30,000 of them are recent immigrants from Armenia. My great-grandfather fought in the Ottoman Army against Turkish enemies, and so did thousands and thousands of other Armenians. Far more Armenians fought for the Ottoman empire during WWI than they did against it, and almost all of those fighting against it were Russian Armenians fighting for their country. No matter what those Armenians did to Turks, does that give any excuse to exterminate the entire Armenian population of Anatolia? Were women and children Tashnag gangs? Can you consider elderly women and men dangerous rebels? Only the Armenians of Istanbul and Izmir were spared, and many of them were even sent off to their deaths too. In 1918, the entire Armenian population of Turkey became 10% of what it was in 1915. How could this have happened without an intentional plan to exterminate a people? Could the government been so stupid that they actually believed that the hundreds of thousands of women and children it sent into the desert to march for months with no food and water would survive? And why do you ignore the hundreds of written telegraphs between German and Turkish military, diplomats and journalists from that time, which openly state that the intention of the Turkish authorities is to exterminate this ethnic group? Just read the German archives; www.armenocide.de. Why are Turks so afraid to admit what is so obvious to everyone else?

[Yavrum]

Hovik,

I will try to keep a good level of discussion on here. Ajitation of those events happened nearly a century ago, does not bring anything new to our discussion, but just can fuel the blind hatred and aggresivity...I acknowledge the death of the many Armenian Ottomans; but do you also acknowledge the death of many Turks during the same years! If you have the free will to open discussion -intellectual but not low-level discussion-
Please do recognize that also some Armenians clearly formed armed organisations to fight against their own State, on the side of Russia ! (and later on on the side of France). I am sure you have heard about Tashnak-sudiun, Hinchak etc. Havent they burned many Turkish and Kurdish villages into ashes, people inside mosques and homes were burned. I am sure you have already the seen the photo of 'the pile of hundreds of cut-off heads of muslims', neatly arranged and took the photo by Tashnak members...But as said, werent there massacres? yes of course, both sides had done it...But this is never a genocide! Only the related Armenians to the revolts waere affected...Majority of Armenians living in Istanbul was not touched at all...Otherways, would there be a 100 000 armenians living in Istanbul nowadays, in prosperity? And one of the 4 grand Patriarchy of Armeians would stil be left in Istanbul?? Anyway, my intention here again, is not to revive the bloody bad memories of the past. But rather, to try to propose something new and useful for our kids to live in peace...
But we should see what really happened, without ajitations...

Oh, you are so wrong. Both sides of my family had to flee their ancestrial homes - where did the Turks flee to? Nowhere, they stayed there and took over the ancient homes of my ancestors. Bones of aunt and uncles I was never to meet are buried somewhere in the deserts my grandparents and mother were ordered to march to. These things happened to my family in Kharpet, Aintab, Diyarbeker and yes, even Istanbul. The whole Armenian town of Kharpet was wiped out. Explain that one? My family did not lie about their experience, neither did all the Armenians in my town whom I grew up with, which were so many in the 1920s they had to name the section where they lived as little Armenia. Funny, there were no little Turkey's around, no, they managed to take over those areas in Turkey, they didn't need to flee to a democratic country in order to practice their religion in peace. Nice try on the propoganda, but common sense always comes out ahead.