Genocide Discussion Separated from Patriotic Thread

[Kharpert]

Pirate, we're giving both you an Anatolian a proper audience.

Don't start crying just because your arguments were proven wrong.

[Hovik]

Hi Anatolian-Heart
Buddy i will make an advice to you.Don't waste your time here.I also tried to tell something in this forum.But whatever you say which doesn't support the Armenian opinion will be rejected.And someone will start to insult you soon,you will see that.

The solution is obvious.Armenia should open the archieves.Turkey archieves are widely open.Also to negotiate this claims both side will need Russian archieves.Historians will come together around a table and they will discuss about all events which occured between those times.

There is no consequence by discussing like this.

Take easy;

I know you are only capable of picking-and-choosing information from those few-and-weak historians who support the Turkish lie, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in hoping this might sink in if but a little...

http://www.armeniangenocide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1181&postcount=1

[muratkanat6907]

Oh, you are so wrong. Both sides of my family had to flee their ancestrial homes - where did the Turks flee to? Nowhere, they stayed there and took over the ancient homes of my ancestors. Bones of aunt and uncles I was never to meet are buried somewhere in the deserts my grandparents and mother were ordered to march to. These things happened to my family in Kharpet, Aintab, Diyarbeker and yes, even Istanbul. The whole Armenian town of Kharpet was wiped out. Explain that one? My family did not lie about their experience, neither did all the Armenians in my town whom I grew up with, which were so many in the 1920s they had to name the section where they lived as little Armenia. Funny, there were no little Turkey's around, no, they managed to take over those areas in Turkey, they didn't need to flee to a democratic country in order to practice their religion in peace. Nice try on the propoganda, but common sense always comes out ahead.

I'm sorry for your family. But, always remember that there are two sides for all stories. And As I witnessed so far, Turkey's side (at least some of them) admitt that there were horrible things happened.
But I didn't see any Armenian accepting stories have other sides.
And for "no little Turkey around"
because Turkey earned it's freedom in 1923...

[Yavrum]

Why yes, Turkey earned its freedom, but whose land did they take to earn it? I fully realize there are two sides and I have heard both.

[phantom]

few-and-weak historians..
you mean Justin McCarthy and Bernard Lewis?

and if you had such "mighty" historians supporting Armenian claims and so "obvious" proves why didn't you answer the call of our PM?

Photos of the dead people aren't a proof.. There are also plenty of Turkish photos-women and children killed by armenians..

Justin McCarthy is not a respected historian by any stretch of the imagination. He is considered a joke by the academic community. Bernard Lewis has his own agenda when it comes to this and all other issues, and it relates to the preservation of Israel. Read his current rantings about dissolving the country of Iran, and you might understand what I'm talking about.

We don't just have a couple of mighty historians. We virtually the entire academic community that specializes in this aspect of history. For example, the International Association of Genocide Scholars (www.isg-iags.org), and the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem. These are the preeminent institutions and academic organizations who study this topic, and guess what they say, along with virtually every other expert on this subject. Yet you cling to third-class historians like McCarthy and purport to be objective. I'm sorry, but that makes no sense in rational world.

[phantom]

I'm sorry for your family. But, always remember that there are two sides for all stories. And As I witnessed so far, Turkey's side (at least some of them) admitt that there were horrible things happened.
But I didn't see any Armenian accepting stories have other sides.
And for "no little Turkey around"
because Turkey earned it's freedom in 1923...

As an attorney, I was trained to believe that there are always two sides to every story. But also as an attorney, I learned that often, one side is right and the other is wrong. It has long been established that what happened to the Armenians during WWI was none other than a Genocide. The man who invented the word Genocide, Raphael Lemkin, took the Armenian case as a prime example of what he meant when he created that word.

Here's what Lemkin had to say about what happened to the Armenians. What amazes me most is that Turkey is trying to tell the inventor of the word what his invention means or doesn't mean:

From a letter to Mrs. Thelma Stevens, Methodist Women’s Council, July 26, 1950

“This Convention is a matter of conscience and is a test of our personal relationship to evil. I know it is very hot in July and August for work and planning, but without becoming sentimental or trying to use colorful speech, let us not forget that the heat of this month is less unbearable to us than the heat of the ovens of Auschwitz and Dachau and more lenient than the murderous heat in the desert of Aleppo which burned to death the bodies of hundreds of thousands of Christian Armenian victims of genocide in 1915.”

From “Totally Unofficial, The Autobiography of Raphael Lemkin.”

“In 1915 the Germans occupied the city of W. and the entire area. I used this time to read more history, to study and to watch whether national, religious, or racial groups are being destroyed. The truth came out only after the war. In Turkey, more than 1,200,000 Armenians were put to death for no other reason than they were Christians… . After the end of the war, some 150 Turkish war criminals were arrested and interned by the British Government on the Island of Malta. The Armenians sent a delegation to the peace conference in Versailles. They were demanding justice. Then one day, the delegation read in the newspapers that all Turkish war criminals were released. I was shocked. A nation was killed and the guilty persons were set free. Why is a man punished when he kills another man? Why is the killing of a million a lesser crime than the killing of a single individual?


“I identified myself more and more with the sufferings of the victims, whose numbers grew, as I continued my study of history. I understood that the function of memory is not only to register past events, but to stimulate human conscience. Soon contemporary examples of genocide followed, such as the slaughter of Armenians in 1915. It became clear to me that the diversity of nations, religious groups and races is essential to civilization because every one of those groups has a mission to fulfill and a contribution to make in terms of culture… . I decide to become a lawyer and work for the outlawing of Genocide and for its prevention through the cooperation of nations.”

“…A bold plan was formulated in my mind. This consisted [of] obtaining the ratification by Turkey [of the proposed UN Convention on Genocide. Ed] among the first twenty founding nations. This would be an atonement for [the] genocide of the Armenians. But how could this be achieved?… The Turks are proud of their republican form of government and of progressive concepts, which helped them in replacing the rule of the Ottoman Empire. The genocide convention must be put within the framework of social and international progress. I knew however that in this conversation both sides will have to avoid speaking about one thing, although it would be constantly in their minds: the Armenians.”

[Lemkins’s papers are from the Rare Books and Manuscripts Division, New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox and Tilden Foundations.]

[Hovik]

I'm sorry for your family. But, always remember that there are two sides for all stories. And As I witnessed so far, Turkey's side (at least some of them) admitt that there were horrible things happened.
But I didn't see any Armenian accepting stories have other sides.
And for "no little Turkey around"
because Turkey earned it's freedom in 1923...

You had to throw a "BUT" in your "apology" didn't you. Thats typical...

There is NO OTHER SIDE TO GENOCIDE. Of course you could argue that there was another side to the Jewish Genocide (it's called fanatical, extremist stupidity), so there you have it, there's your other side. You should read what Deborah Lipstadt has to say about "two sides"...
PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS STATEMENT: http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...2&postcount=11

If all you want is for me to admit that there were instances where Armenians killed innocent Turks, you must be kidding. Any idiot knows that there were cases (however few) of retribution during the slaughter of the Armenian people. Let us not forget that while Germans were ruthlessly slaughtering Jews (practicing what Turks taught them) there were cases of uprisings in the Ghetto where Jews fought back and attained similar instances of retribution. Does that mean that Jews or Armenians are equally guilty? certainly not. Thats the difference between murder or even massacre and Genocide. Armenians were not capable, nor interested in exerminating the Turkish race - as Yavrum says, 'that's why Turks are living in Western Armenia today and not Armenians...'

A little common sense goes a long way ... when used.

So I've said there's a Turkish side, what's next?

[Hovik]

Great Posts phantom, and really great sources for everyone to read. I hope those engaging in the forum will read them.

And your point about the fact that Turks are trying to tell the inventor of the word Genocide what he meant by it. The word Genocide was created because of what happened to Armenians! The fact that we're arguing this is utter madness!

[phantom]

Great Posts phantom, and really great sources for everyone to read. I hope those engaging in the forum will read them.

And your point about the fact that Turks are trying to tell the inventor of the word Genocide what he meant by it. The word Genocide was created because of what happened to Armenians! The fact that we're arguing this is utter madness!

Thanks Hovik. And you're right, it is utter madness. Here 60 years later, we're trying to teach a dead man a lesson about the word he invented. Turks are not any dumber than us or Europeans. I'm certain that if enough Turks really pay attention to the details of history, they will come to the same realization as the rest of humanity on this subject. Why shouldn't they unless they let their pride overide their better judgment.

[muratkanat6907]

Why yes, Turkey earned its freedom, but whose land did they take to earn it? I fully realize there are two sides and I have heard both.

My friend Turks were around since 13th cetury, and I believe this makes Turks natural anatolian, so you can't say that Turks invade lands of Armenian and Kurds.
That's why you should think about why Turks were able to build a new state after WWI despite everything? and not Armenian or Kurdish?
Why deportation or "genocide" (which I don't believe that it was) took place after centuries of living together...? and why not all Armenians living around on Ottoman empire, were not deported?
Personally I believe that some Turks did horrible things, but still I think that some Armenians, Kurds, German, French, English, Russian, Rumanian etc..
could the same things, in the same situation. Also, I know that we Turks are too sentimental so we cannot realize such systematic "genocide" even if we wanted, too. Which we didnt want to do.