The Assassination of Hrant Dink

[bell-the-cat]

-Armenia has an ongoing territorial claim on Eastern Turkey, which is pronounced officially by Dashnaks (part of the current Armenian governing coalition).

Armenia does not and never has had any territorial claim on eastern Turkey. You are just repeating Turkish ultranationalist "motherland in peril" propaganda nonsense.

Noyan Tapan / Armenians Today reported on Dec 13 2006 that in an interview for the the Turkish newspaper Cumhurriet, and in response to the question, "does Armenia recognize the Treaty of Kars?" RA Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian said: "Armenia has never made a problem of validity of the Treaty of Kars, as Armenia remains loyal to all agreements inherited from the Soviet Union."

You will also read here that it is very normal that the Armenian flag has ‘Agri Dagi’ (Mount Ararat) on it. I would be glad to find out, from you, or from other forum members, whether there is any other county in the world, which has a geographic symbol of a neighboring country on its flag.

And yours has a crescent moon on it - does that mean you are laying claim to the Moon? Ararat is not a "geographical symbol" for Turkey, and the use of Ararat on Armenian state and national symbols dates from the 19th century.

Armenia abuses the genocide issue to continue its occupation of Karabagh, and about 10-20 percent of remaining Azerbaijan proper. The logic behind is, however simplified it is, the ‘damn Turks took our lands 90 years ago, now we are taking their cousins’ land’ attitude.

It is Azerbaijan that abuses the genocide issue, and you abusing the word occupation.

-Armenian refusal to acknowledge that, even before the disputed genocide, the Armenians did not constitute a majority in Eastern Turkey (with the possible exception of downtown Van, where Armenians were, according to some sources, a slight majority). Therefore: Irredentist claims such as the return of these territories do not want to avenge the disputed genocide of 90 years ago, but their supporters want to avenge the historical events which stretch back almost 1000 years, when Seldzhuk armies had defeated the Byzantines at Marzikent (Malazgirt) in 1071.

There is no such general refusal to acknowledge.

BTW, Armenians were in the majority population in the whole of the Lake Van area.

Those that genuinely make Irredentist claims are not going to be intelligent enough to even know what "irredentist" means.

[bell-the-cat]

Most continue to find excuses somehow. But I was never a person to deny history and there is unfortunately (I say unfortunately because no one likes to admit that their nation was responsible for a genocide) overwhelming evidence that supports Armenians' claim. And it would be futile to keep on denying when there is such proof. But like I've said, most everyone, (possibly including my parents) would probably disagree with me or perhaps even accuse me of "insulting Turkishness" if I were to go to Turkey and say this outloud. While they wouldn't be able to realize that I love Turkey just as much as them, but denial has never helped anyone, and I would only be pushing the Turks to admit in the hopes that there might still be a chance of reconciliation, or perhaps mutual understanding between the Turks and the Armenians someday.

Jade, I would be really interested in knowing what sort of things your parents and other Turks say when faced with what are the basic undisputed facts about what happened to Turkey's Armenians (like the facts that phantom had given). How can they deny that that it was a genocide?

All we mostly get to hear about what Turks think about the Armenian genocide issue is in the context of pointless "Turk versus Armenian" argumentative exchanges on forums, or from Turkish politicians or "historians" writing in Turkish newspapers. We never get to hear about what ordinary Turks say amongst themselves.

[bell-the-cat]

I agree...I felt insulted as well...Genocide has a great impact on my life as well as all Armenians I know...

Helen, my comment was addressed at 1.5 and his fake claims of "loss". It's late here, and I'm not going to elaborate on it further.
I see that you have described yourself as "an Armenian from Armenia" so I can understand and totally accept that you do feel a great loss, having to look out every day at lands that were once an integral part of Armenia, and Armenia's history, and the Armenian psyche. Lands that are now in the hands of a country that committed such great crimes against you ancestors, and that continues to act against you through their blockades, and their support for Azerbaijan, and their continuing denial of the genocide, and how they even deny the historical Armenian presence in those lost lands and destroy or surpress evidence of that presence.

[Hovik]

Maybe I missed something... was someone trying to say that Armenia's national flag has Mt. Ararat on it???

[phantom]

Maybe I missed something... was someone trying to say that Armenia's national flag has Mt. Ararat on it???

Apparently! Also, I heard the German flag has the Eiffel Tower on it, and the U.S. flag has a picture of Beckham!

[Hovik]

You ARE kidding right????

Here we go again with Turkish myths.

This only goes to show how LITTLE (if anything) Turks know about Armenia.

Vogel, honestly tell me that you don't know what Armenia's flag looks like. I can't imagine not knowing what a neighboring country's flag has on it. And with the internet, it seems a simple google search sanity check might be a good idea before spreading outlandish Turkaganda...

Just to give you a little hint:

THIS IS THE ARMENIAN FLAG


THIS IS THE ARMENIAN FLAG ON TOP OF MT ARARAT


NOW, FIND ME A PICTURE OF MT ARARAT ON TOP OF THE ARMENIAN FLAG

[Steph]

Vogel,

Please could you inform the rest of us, regarding flags, just when the Moon became part of Turkey???

[Vogelgrippe]

one correction, few elaborations..

I) I was obviously wrong about my statement that there is Mt. Ararat on the Armenian flag.Instead, Mt. Ararat is on the coat of arms of Armenia. Armenian gentlemen who were very quick to correct and reprimand me about my mistake, of course, forgot to add the thing about Armenian coat of arms. The quote below is from Joseph’s response to one of my postings.

Article 13 of Armenian Constitution

The flag of the Republic of Armenia is tricolor made of three
horizontal and equal strips of red, blue, and orange. The coat of arms
of the Republic of Armenia depicts, in the center on a shield, Mount
Ararat with Noah's ark and the coats of arms of the four kingdoms of
historical Armenia. The shield is supported by a lion and an eagle
while a sword, a branch, a sheaf, a chain and a ribbon are portrayed
under the shield. The national anthem of the Republic of Armenia is
the "Our Fatherland." The capital of the Republic of Armenia is
Yerevan.

One forum member already stated that it is a very ‘innocent’ thing to have a mountain which is in Turkish territory is on Armenian coat of arms! He went on stating that that the Mt. Ararat symbol had been in use since 19th century! 19th century? That is when there was no independent Armenia at all. If that statement is true, wouldn’t the Ottoman authorities right in suspecting that Armenians were involving in subversive and separatist activities…? Just brainstorming…

II) Instead of starting a total assault on my statements, I would recommend you to look at my previous postings about Karabagh. I had openly stated that Armenia may have a legitimate claim on Karabagh, because that region has always had an ethnic Armenian majority. About my other statement that an additional 10-15 percent of proper Azerbaijan is still under Armenian occupation, there are, as usual, no comments. Nobody bothers to explain why, in addition to Karabagh, the rest of Azeri land is occupied even though there were no Armenians to protect there to start with.

III) About the ethnic composition of Eastern Turkey prior to WW1, I had listed several sources in my previous postings, including those of Henry Morgenthau who can be regarded a very pro-Armenian figure. None of the sources mention an Armenian majority in the entire region of Lake Van. Only one Turkish scholar and Morgenthau mention an Armenian majority in downtown Van.

IV) In democratic countries, political parties with fascistic, anti-democratic or aggressive agendas are not allowed to be part of coalition governments. To cite some examples, Austria and Bulgaria recently blocked Peoples Party and Attaka, respectively, from being part of coalition governments. Both parties controlled about 10-15 of the votes in respective countries, but their aggressive and racist agendas were deemed dangerous for Austrian and Bulgarian foreign policy. If Armenia lets such a political party (Dashnaks) to be part of its government, it should blame itself, and not Turkey, that Armenia’s policies are perceived as a threat by Turkey. Or should Turkey be blamed that Dashnaks are part of the Armenian government and are repeating their land claims as recently as in 2007?

V) As far as I know, there are about 30-35 countries in the world which have suns, moons and stars on their flags (U.S.A, Australia, Tunisia, Algeria, Argentina, Pakistan, Turkey, Israel, etc...) I totally agree with you guys that these symbols can scare off Martians and other aliens and make them think that we want to invade their planets and solar systems
Therefore, as soon as you start an international campaign for the removal of these symbols, I will gladly volunteer and work with you


As long as Armenian government, Armenian diaspora, and Armenian individuals insist on claiming that they are never wrong, dialogue is not possible. Certainly, neither Turks nor Armenians should depend on each other in order to correct their mistakes, and to make amends. Turkey can move on to democratize and improve itself without bothering to deal with is wrongdoings to Armenians. Armenia can do the same without having to deal with Turkey. But then we wouldn't be speaking about dialogue.

[Vogelgrippe]

And since 'visuals' are important, here is the coat of arms of the Republic of Armenia. And the mountain on the center?

Mount Kangchenjunga in Nepal, I presume

[1.5 million]

I) About my other statement that an additional 10-15 percent of proper Azerbaijan is still under Armenian occupation, there are, as usual, no comments. Nobody bothers to explain why, in addition to Karabagh, the rest of Azeri land is occupied even though there were no Armenians to protect there to start with.

Armenia has several times offered this (occupied) territory back - under the condition that Azerbaijan recognize that Artsakh/NogKar is not their territory and pledge to not attack (seems quite reasonable eh?). Azerbaijan has outright refused. Armenians originally took and holds these lands as the form both a corridor from Armenia to Artsakh - necessary because of the blockade imposed and still enforced by Azerbaijan and they form a ring of highlands from where the Azeris were shelling Armenian towns and villages and where now defensive positions will ensure the Azerbaijan is at a disadvantage if it were to attack again. If Azerbaijan pledges not to attack Artsakh and regognizes that it legitimatly seperated from the Soviet Union just as Azerbaijan did and it was never the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan - then no problem. How would Azeris feel if Russia attemted to claim Azerbaijan because it was part of its Soviet territories? Well this is exactly what the Azeris are claiming in regards to Nagoro Karabagh/Artsakh...

I) III) About the ethnic composition of Eastern Turkey prior to WW1, I had listed several sources in my previous postings, including those of Henry Morgenthau who can be regarded a very pro-Armenian figure. None of the sources mention an Armenian majority in the entire region of Lake Van. Only one Turkish scholar and Morgenthau mention an Armenian majority in downtown Van.

I would suggest that you look into the Turkish composition of the regions (prior ro the Armenian Genocide..and then prior to the 19th centurey where the Turks had a deliberate policy of driving Armenians away and settling Kurds and other Turkics into this region. Ethnic Turks were no more a majority in this region then Armenians. There were Kurds and others (not indigeous of the area) who were settled into this area by the Ottomans to deliberatly lessen the percentage of Armenians - much as the Chinese are now doing with han Chinese in Xinjiang province where they are attempting to marginalize the Uighurs. Again - should Armenians have been deprived of their rightful homeland due to these invasive policies? Should the Turks automatically be rewarded at the expense of the Armenians due to their sucess with this racist policy?

I) IV) In democratic countries, political parties with fascistic, anti-democratic or aggressive agendas are not allowed to be part of coalition governments. To cite some examples, Austria and Bulgaria recently blocked Peoples Party and Attaka, respectively, from being part of coalition governments. Both parties controlled about 10-15 of the votes in respective countries, but their aggressive and racist agendas were deemed dangerous for Austrian and Bulgarian foreign policy. If Armenia lets such a political party (Dashnaks) to be part of its government, it should blame itself, and not Turkey, that Armenia’s policies are perceived as a threat by Turkey. Or should Turkey be blamed that Dashnaks are part of the Armenian government and are repeating their land claims as recently as in 2007?

MHP and others far worse then the Dashnaks are allowed and encouraged to participate in Turkey's democracy. And nearly all of the major Azerbaijan political parties advocate far worse in regards to Armenia and specifically Artsakh and they are not at all reigned in. No government can fully control the party platforms of every political party within a Democracy - regardless of the propriety of certain positions. Unless such parties are truly off the wall and dangerous etc - as in the case of these Austrian and Bulgarian parties nothing really can (or should) be done. I for one am no fan of the Dashnaks.

I)V) As far as I know, there are about 30-35 countries in the world which have suns, moons and stars on their flags (U.S.A, Australia, Tunisia, Algeria, Argentina, Pakistan, Turkey, Israel, etc...) I totally agree with you guys that these symbols can scare off Martians and other aliens and make them think that we want to invade their planets and solar systems
Therefore, as soon as you start an international campaign for the removal of these symbols, I will gladly volunteer and work with you

Non issue

I)As long as Armenian government, Armenian diaspora, and Armenian individuals insist on claiming that they are never wrong, dialogue is not possible. Certainly, neither Turks nor Armenians should depend on each other in order to correct their mistakes, and to make amends. Turkey can move on to democratize and improve itself without bothering to deal with is wrongdoings to Armenians. Armenia can do the same without having to deal with Turkey. But then we wouldn't be speaking about dialogue.

Considering that Armenians were the victims of Genocide and of destructive racist policies prior to and after the Genocide I would argue that the ball is fully in Turkey's court to make the admissions and concessions first - then we can talk. Until then for Turkey and Turks to press Armenians for any admissions of wrongdoing - etc - is simply ludicrous and highly insulting/insensitive....

Additionally I think you are mistaken to claim that Turkey can move on with Democritization and improvement without first properly addressing the issues surounding the Armenian Genocide. Until then your nation is living a great lie and will always be perpetuating such and out of such nothing good can come.