Absolutely Disgusting

[1.5 million]

Of course - and Dink was obviously a mass murderer himself and deserved death (just as the Armenians of 1915 - whose children alone as we all know were responsible for the deaths of 10,000,000 Turks!) They like Dink deserved death at the hands of the Turk...but the magnimosity of the Turks - even in the face of repeated onslaughts from crotchety old Armenian ladies armed with brooms and rakes is just unequaled in the annals of history...instead of death these traitor were protected and were escortedaway from the areas of danger in the nation - at great expense to the Empire)....how can one claim such things? (when they seem so contrary to the numerous eyewitness reports - though we know these to obviously be biased and hateful against Turks) Well for some Turks it is just very easy to spout any old made up s h i t and then go on believing it.

[muratkanat6907]

I suggest you to read some Turkish news papers and news agenies in English (printed in Turkey) in order to have a wider perspective about what do Turks really think about death of Hrant Dink.

Of course - and Dink was obviously a mass murderer himself and deserved death (just as the Armenians of 1915 - whose children alone as we all know were responsible for the deaths of 10,000,000 Turks!) They like Dink deserved death at the hands of the Turk...but the magnimosity of the Turks - even in the face of repeated onslaughts from crotchety old Armenian ladies armed with brooms and rakes is just unequaled in the annals of history...instead of death these traitor were protected and were escortedaway from the areas of danger in the nation - at great expense to the Empire)....how can one claim such things? (when they seem so contrary to the numerous eyewitness reports - though we know these to obviously be biased and hateful against Turks) Well for some Turks it is just very easy to spout any old made up s h i t and then go on believing it.

[phantom]

Murat, what part of the Genocide facts are you questioning still? You say that all of the sources are either Armenian or Turkish. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. My experience has been that all of the sources on which historians have relied to form the conclusion that it was a Genocide come from the following original sources:

1. Turkish military tribunals from 1919-1920
2. Turkish parliamentary records from the same period; and
3. German archives with telegrams between German officials regarding what was actually taking place.

None of those sources are Armenian. The conclusions made by the vast majority of historians who say it was Genocide is based mostly on those sources. In addition to those sources are the following, but they are not needed to prove it was Genocide, they are merely cumulative:

4. Diaries and diplomatic dispatches of American diplomats stationed in the Ottoman Empire
5. Diaries of Christian missionaries (German, Austrian, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, American, Swiss)
5. Eyewitness accounts from survivors; and
6. Turkish and Kurdish eyewitnesses

So, please let me know why you think that the sources are either Turkish or Armenian. Thanks.

[muratkanat6907]

Phantom,
Since I don't have the opportunity to reach the original texts or copies of them. I prefer not to take those presented on Armenian or Turkish web pages, too seriously.
But this doesn't mean that I'm not aware of what Armenian people haven been through during those period and afterwards. Especially, after I learned that one of my grand parents relatives was Armenian indeed.
I have suggestions at this point. Why the two community cannot decide to form an international group of historians (not only historians) and let professionals and people who have truth knowledge solve this problem.

But what I don't understand is before doing this, both sides shows the work of professionals who are in close reliationship with Armenian or Turkish communities, at least that's the claim of both sides.

Before asking questions about the historical events, I must say that I'm sorry for Armenian population living in Turkey for what they have been through. But also, I should say that common thoughts of "Armenian" living in Turkey is changing drastically. Good for Turkey.

On the basis of historical events:
- I cannot understand why this "deportation" decision of non-muslim communities, was implemented only for Armenian?
- Why this occured so suddenly? Only because of Young Turks?

Murat, what part of the Genocide facts are you questioning still? You say that all of the sources are either Armenian or Turkish. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. My experience has been that all of the sources on which historians have relied to form the conclusion that it was a Genocide come from the following original sources:

1. Turkish military tribunals from 1919-1920
2. Turkish parliamentary records from the same period; and
3. German archives with telegrams between German officials regarding what was actually taking place.

None of those sources are Armenian. The conclusions made by the vast majority of historians who say it was Genocide is based mostly on those sources. In addition to those sources are the following, but they are not needed to prove it was Genocide, they are merely cumulative:

4. Diaries and diplomatic dispatches of American diplomats stationed in the Ottoman Empire
5. Diaries of Christian missionaries (German, Austrian, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, American, Swiss)
5. Eyewitness accounts from survivors; and
6. Turkish and Kurdish eyewitnesses

So, please let me know why you think that the sources are either Turkish or Armenian. Thanks.

[Joseph]

Phantom,
Since I don't have the opportunity to reach the original texts or copies of them. I prefer not to take those presented on Armenian or Turkish web pages, too seriously.
But this doesn't mean that I'm not aware of what Armenian people haven been through during those period and afterwards. Especially, after I learned that one of my grand parents relatives was Armenian indeed.
I have suggestions at this point. Why the two community cannot decide to form an international group of historians (not only historians) and let professionals and people who have truth knowledge solve this problem.

But what I don't understand is before doing this, both sides shows the work of professionals who are in close reliationship with Armenian or Turkish communities, at least that's the claim of both sides.

Before asking questions about the historical events, I must say that I'm sorry for Armenian population living in Turkey for what they have been through. But also, I should say that common thoughts of "Armenian" living in Turkey is changing drastically. Good for Turkey.

On the basis of historical events:
- I cannot understand why this "deportation" decision of non-muslim communities, was implemented only for Armenian?
- Why this occured so suddenly? Only because of Young Turks?

Assyrians, Chaldeans, Pontic Greeks and Yezidis were also killed during the Genocide. It was actually very much a Christian Genocide.
The Genocide was a culmination of events that began in the 1890's under Abdul Hamid II (the red Sultan). WWI became a pretext for the CUP to solve the pretext "solve the Armenian problem" once and for all.

[muratkanat6907]

Yes Joseph,
I should admitt that in the latest period of Ottoman empire, Turks did try to exterminate all non-muslims, than the next step was to finish other non-Turk muslims communities!!!!.

Indeed, Turks are the only reason behind all the bad things on the world. I won't be surprised in near future there will emerge web sites about genocide of Kurds, Arabs, Bulgarians, Russians etc.!!!!!

If this aim of "making Turks to Confess their crimes against Armenians and other publics" will be realized, would you focus on Armenia's problems today (I'm not talking about the problem with Azeris), as an Armenian living outside of Armenia (I suppose).

Assyrians, Chaldeans, Pontic Greeks and Yezidis were also killed during the Genocide. It was actually very much a Christian Genocide.
The Genocide was a culmination of events that began in the 1890's under Abdul Hamid II (the red Sultan). WWI became a pretext for the CUP to solve the pretext "solve the Armenian problem" once and for all.

[Joseph]

Yes Joseph,
I should admitt that in the latest period of Ottoman empire, Turks did try to exterminate all non-muslims, than the next step was to finish other non-Turk muslims communities!!!!.

Indeed, Turks are the only reason behind all the bad things on the world. I won't be surprised in near future there will emerge web sites about genocide of Kurds, Arabs, Bulgarians, Russians etc.!!!!!

If this aim of "making Turks to Confess their crimes against Armenians and other publics" will be realized, would you focus on Armenia's problems today (I'm not talking about the problem with Azeris), as an Armenian living outside of Armenia (I suppose).

True.

No, there have been countless other genocides through the centuries and around the world but most of them have been owned up to. BTW- the Dersim and Sheko Kurds were wiped out in the mid-1920's by the Turks.

In addition to Genocide recognition the vast majority of Armenians are involved in helping Armenia. This began in the late 1980's. That has been the main focus of our collective energies and fundraising. I can't blame you if you only see the Genocide recognition activities.

[Joseph]

I suggest you to read some Turkish news papers and news agenies in English (printed in Turkey) in order to have a wider perspective about what do Turks really think about death of Hrant Dink.

I have. And I have posted many of these commentaries on this site in recent days. Some are good, some are magnanimous and many are downright insulting.

[phantom]

Phantom,
Since I don't have the opportunity to reach the original texts or copies of them. I prefer not to take those presented on Armenian or Turkish web pages, too seriously.
But this doesn't mean that I'm not aware of what Armenian people haven been through during those period and afterwards. Especially, after I learned that one of my grand parents relatives was Armenian indeed.
I have suggestions at this point. Why the two community cannot decide to form an international group of historians (not only historians) and let professionals and people who have truth knowledge solve this problem.

But what I don't understand is before doing this, both sides shows the work of professionals who are in close reliationship with Armenian or Turkish communities, at least that's the claim of both sides.

Before asking questions about the historical events, I must say that I'm sorry for Armenian population living in Turkey for what they have been through. But also, I should say that common thoughts of "Armenian" living in Turkey is changing drastically. Good for Turkey.

On the basis of historical events:
- I cannot understand why this "deportation" decision of non-muslim communities, was implemented only for Armenian?
- Why this occured so suddenly? Only because of Young Turks?

Murat, at some point we have to trust the experts unless we are the experts. I'm not a historian. Thus, I don't have time to go to Istanbul and search through the Ottoman Archives, or go to Germany and look through their archives, or read every book ever written about this subject. Having said that, I am extremely well-educated on this topic for a non-expert. If the experts tell me that they have seen the original Ottoman sources regarding the materials I listed, then I have to trust them.

For example, I'm sure you believe that the Holocaust happened, even though you have not seen the original sources of documentation yourself. You trust what the experts tell you. So why do you not trust what the experts are telling you in this case?

Also, the answer to your question of why the Armenians? There are lots of non-Armenian and non-Turkish sources who have answered that question quite sufficiently.

[muratkanat6907]

Phantom, I totally agree with you on this subject.
But the thing that I don't like is that both sides do not take the view of some experts if these experts believe the opposite of what they believe. Both on Turkish and Armenian web pages one can see the list of experts who are not true experts, according to them.
Another point is that all the listed documents can be falsified by the other side's proofs.

For holocaust, I saw original video recordings.

Murat, at some point we have to trust the experts unless we are the experts. I'm not a historian. Thus, I don't have time to go to Istanbul and search through the Ottoman Archives, or go to Germany and look through their archives, or read every book ever written about this subject. Having said that, I am extremely well-educated on this topic for a non-expert. If the experts tell me that they have seen the original Ottoman sources regarding the materials I listed, then I have to trust them.

For example, I'm sure you believe that the Holocaust happened, even though you have not seen the original sources of documentation yourself. You trust what the experts tell you. So why do you not trust what the experts are telling you in this case?

Also, the answer to your question of why the Armenians? There are lots of non-Armenian and non-Turkish sources who have answered that question quite sufficiently.