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Religion and the Armenian Genocide

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  • #71
    1.5

    I keep meaning to ask if you are related to Gomitas?

    If only you were talking about something real (in a positive sense) - but your not. Its just hocus pocus.
    So you believe the Socratic axiom "Know Thyself" is hocus pocus. Of course people are open tpo self deception but that is not self knowledge. The difference is what takes years often to learn. The time depends upon ones courage and the need to know.

    If Gurdjieff were alive today, how would you explain the Armenian Genocide to him. Here is a man whose father was Greek and his mother Armenian. He lived during its time. His understanding of the essence of the meaning of Plato's cave and it being analogous to the objective position of man in the world, was equal to anyones.

    Simone would agree and yet you imply that you understand it better. What is it that you believe you understand?

    And in regard to "knowing oneself" - I suggest that a knowlege of biology (including of course genetics as well as physilogy) is paramount, followed by Sociology, Anthropology and Psychology...along with of course - history (in general as well as family and personal history). I have a feeling that there is plenty worthwhile for the person who is interested in understanding and bettering ones self to chew on in just these areas that can bear fruitful results. All of which would be more useful then contemplating what god is trying to tell us or what god wants for us...as these latter things are pure baseless speculation and are without proper structure or foundation...might as well just take that heroin.
    Perhaps if we did know what it meant to "Know Thyself," it could be possible to contemplate God and be noticed from above. What is it that does the knowing as distinct from the self?

    The quotes of Russel and Jung just describe perceptions of the Absolute natural reactions of Man psycholgically asleep in the Cave. The obvious question then is what knowledge can a sleeping man have in matters beyond cave existence? It is this sleep that makes atrocities possible

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    • #72
      Nick - I just have to say that I reject your contention that I am somehow blinded to some form of truth that you claim to know through belief in some god that I know to be fictional - what can I say? As long as you inject any hypothetical god(s) into the creation then by definition you are just making it up as you go along and the value of your insights and conclusions is both tainted and off base. I'm still not buying the fact that I need to try your heroin to inatly know that it is no good for me (or ultimatly for you and for everyone...unless of course the pain is too great [as was Simone Weils] and you just can't handle existance as it is for us - then I can understand and sympathyze - but I have no need for it and I fear that if others still do (as many/most seem to) it is a condition of continued need for childhood assurances (don't worry i am her for you - its all going to be OK) and pat answers (do as I tell you I know best...and BTW here are all the answers to those tough questions of yours - so don't worry yourself having to think for yourself) that I fear doesn't say much for our development as an evolved intelligent species. I guess it was not a mistake when your god started his war against us when we partook of the fruit from the tree of knowledge...

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      • #73
        Originally posted by Nick_A View Post
        1.5

        I keep meaning to ask if you are related to Gomitas?
        No but he voice tutored my grandmother and she was a featured voice in his choir.

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        • #74
          Originally posted by Nick_A View Post
          If Gurdjieff were alive today, how would you explain the Armenian Genocide to him.
          I would expalin the facts and history to him as I would explain it to anyone. I accept that he possessed certain wisdom - but if we were to quiz the most brilliant 19th/early 20th century scientist concerning physics (quantum theory or whatever) today I would surmise they might be able to understand some concepts but would require quite a bit of catch up and re-learning. Likewise Gurdjieff - while certainly of an advanced mind - and I again won't deny the certain possibility for insights with any type of self examination etc - ultimatly his "truths" only get one so far. He was a product of his times - if perhaps someone who was capable of thinking outside of the box in many respects. But I certianly wouldn't rely on him to fix my car.

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          • #75
            Originally posted by Nick_A View Post
            Simone would agree and yet you imply that you understand it better. What is it that you believe you understand?
            I understand that ideals are rarely ever reality.

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            • #76
              Originally posted by SoSarkissian View Post
              That wasn't Islamic beliefs, in fact Ottomans were never Islam or Muslims, they acted slams, even in today's Turkey; yes they are called Islamic nation, but who really is acting Islam? 5% only ...

              Of course I don't agree to what they have done to us! You should know that fact about me till now ...

              all I'm saying is that GOD wants us to respect who believes in him, not every Muslim is Muslim ... and not every Christian is Christian ... you know what I mean now ...
              Quite a slippery slope - you attempting to define who has "true belief" and such...(I think we can see most religions have quite a bit of lattitude here - in terms of how much and specifically what one accepts and obsesses upon or ignores etc...)...so was Christ the dove or the sword? Seems incongruant that he could be both eh?

              You also touch on a key element of the very distastefulness of religion - the ease of "othering" - believers are taught to respect other believers...but those who believe differently...well I shouldn't have to explain this further I don't think....

              Originally posted by SoSarkissian View Post
              I never looked at Turks as Muslims; I always looked at them as barbarians, based on their history and what they have done to us. (excluding 0-5% of today's Turkey who started to see the truth and woke up to yell next to us for justice)....
              Again...its so easy to "other" ...and "barbarians" is quite a loaded term...some of the greatest crimes of man against man have been commited by those claiming that those being callously (and deliberatly) exterminated and or enslaved and such were the "barbarians" of the two...

              Originally posted by SoSarkissian View Post
              Regarding the Commandments:
              NO ONE can fulfill the 10 commandments not even priests themselves, otherwise we'll be considered saints. We try as much as we can, therefore there is confession which you have to do from time to time, in order GOD know that you tried and you didn't succeed completely and you still believe in him and that you are sorry for your sins and so on ...
              Petty little bastard...quite an attention hound he is...and soooo damn demanding...meanwhile he sends floods, earthquakes, smallpox, Mongols etc to keep us on our toes...

              And again - I read it as we are to keep the commandments absolutley - with no conprimise - under clear penalty of DEATH for violation - this is most clear in the versions that I have read. I would say that your interpretation of the leniency of such is a false one. I'm also curious (in regards to absolutism of gods commandments) - if he were to speak to you and tell you to sacrifice your child to him - what would you do?

              Originally posted by SoSarkissian View Post
              I wasn't suppose to write in this thread ... now I’m dragged as well into this religious debate
              I'm not going to explain any further so this thread doesn't go on any longer and deeper than this ... I'm off from this thread guys

              this is SoSarkissian signing off this thread...
              Pity you have been helping me make my points so well...anyway cheers!

              Comment

              • #77
                We know now who would have been a converted to Turk in 1915!

                1.5 there would have been nothing that would have prevented you to jump ship if you lived in those days without Christianity in your life.

                Your an insult to the victims who were murdered yelling "Was born a Christian+ ,Will die a Christian+"

                Don't you realize your covertly asking us to trade our belief's for recognition?

                I will not trade in my God+ for the sake of Genocide recognition, because "I know what happened (like Hrant Dink said) Other nation's recognizing it has no value for me.

                So my dear 1.5 ,
                I'm happy to say for most of us Armenian's comprimise in this issue is not up to discussion.
                After all how many of us forgotten Katch Vartan?
                (You'll probably tell me that's a myth too)
                "All truth passes through three stages:
                First, it is ridiculed;
                Second, it is violently opposed; and
                Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

                Comment

                • #78
                  Originally posted by Gavur View Post
                  We know now who would have been a converted to Turk in 1915!

                  1.5 there would have been nothing that would have prevented you to jump ship if you lived in those days without Christianity in your life.
                  The person you are addressing lives in the here and now and not in the past. It would not be possible for me to live then - and be me - so it is a moot point.

                  I understand and respect why Armenians clung to their Christianity and realize that in doing such (through the ages) it ensured our Armenian identity to this day. However there was once a day when the purists/conservatives or what have you decried when Armenians 'abandoned" their gods for some Levantine creation. "How could they discard what made them uniquily Armenian!?" Well we cannot live in the past - we are not Amish - or if you choose to be so I will not join with you. Neither can I profess belief in something that I neither believe in or believe is ultimatly good for Armenians or humanity - for now and the future. I don't profess these things without a great deal of thought and exploration behind it. I am certain beyond all probability that the Judeao-Christian God and all gods dreamt by man or imagined are false and untrue. I have come to understand that this concept/idea/practice of faith itself is antithesis to human progress, human harmony and ultimatly human happiness. Faith and reason cannot logicaly co-exist (within a person or ultimatly in [sane] society) and reason clearly wins out in every respect. Religion and faith are clearly one of the greatest threats to our species survival - now more so then ever as we now posess the means for such destruction...and plenty with the will and the wish for such (including very much so Christian fundementalists). Likewise with faith based belief anything is possible - any justification for any crime for any atrocity - and there is no possibility for disproof as faith based "reasoning" is imune to challenge by definition. Thank you but I'm from Missouri.

                  Comment

                  • #79
                    Kurt Vonnegut - RIP

                    Avowed atheist, great author and Armenian Genocide recognition supporter. He is already missed.

                    Comment

                    • #80
                      Originally posted by 1.5 million View Post
                      Kurt Vonnegut - RIP

                      Avowed atheist, great author and Armenian Genocide recognition supporter. He is already missed.
                      Indeed he will be missed.
                      General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

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