Christians targeted for death in Turkey

[Gavur]

I don't think Turkey deserves to be a independant nation
They had their chance!

[ardakilic]

I don't have a claim about "enlightening" anybody but i can give some contribution. Although these meetings (14 April and consequents) seem "civil protest against government" form the outside, they openly provocate and promote an army coup and their main slogan was "army to duty". As you know from media, last week army gave momerandum but -at least now- government resists.

RISING OF ULTRA-NATIONALISM
-summary from "Militaristic Intervention and Fascism", Revolutionary Marxism Journal, March 2007, p.9-21-

Rising of ultra-nationalism can be evaluated into three stages. First stage coincide with the middle of 90s. By the improvement of Kurdish guerilla action (mainly PKK and other minor Kurdish groups), governors preferred to make the cheuvinism and Turkey experienced a de facto civil war (I think, this hidden civil war continues in low-intensity form).

Another factor was, by the collapse of Soviet Union, new Turkish-originated countries appeared (Central Asia and Azerbaijan). Turkish big bourgeoisie tried to establish new trade routes with these countries and Turkish statemen promoted "light nationalism-economic integration". For instance, Turgut Ozal claimed "21st century will be Turkish century" or Suleyman Demirel developed "from the Great Wall of China to Adriatic Sea, Turkish world" rhetoric.

Third factor was the rise of Islamic movement. This rise can be diagnosed the election victory of Luxury Party (RP) in 1995. Westist-secular wing supported secular-nationalist against Islamic movements, especially to conceal/hush up Susurluk scandal. This is identified in 28 February army intervention (1997). In this era, army organized "civil bands" illegally and these bands committed many crimes and this phenomenon is identified in the personality of Veli Kucuk.

[Jade]

I don't think Turkey deserves to be a independant nation
They had their chance!

Are you serious? If things were run this way in our world, I can point out plenty of countries who would not "deserve to be independent" as you put it, yet they are....And countries with far worse conditions at that.

[Jade]

Ottoman empire,Young Turks,Republic of Turkey
Same xxxx different name!

I kindly urge you to maintain your composure. I can understand your great dislike for Turkey and frankly I respect that, but to an extent. Just for the sake of being civilized and having civilized conversations.
Ps: and no, I do not want this because I am a Turk, I would say the same if you were talking about Armenia...It is the attitude that makes me uncomfortable.

[Joseph]

Are you serious? If things were run this way in our world, I can point out plenty of countries who would not "deserve to be independent" as you put it, yet they are....And countries with far worse conditions at that.

Very good point indeed. We also seem to lose sight of the fact that there are many countries that violate human rights, slaughter minorities and free thinkers. I am no friend of Turkey or the status quo but indeed countries like China, Sudan, Iran, U.S., etc have killed millions as well.

[Joseph]

I don't have a claim about "enlightening" anybody but i can give some contribution. Although these meetings (14 April and consequents) seem "civil protest against government" form the outside, they openly provocate and promote an army coup and their main slogan was "army to duty". As you know from media, last week army gave momerandum but -at least now- government resists.

RISING OF ULTRA-NATIONALISM
-summary from "Militaristic Intervention and Fascism", Revolutionary Marxism Journal, March 2007, p.9-21-

Rising of ultra-nationalism can be evaluated into three stages. First stage coincide with the middle of 90s. By the improvement of Kurdish guerilla action (mainly PKK and other minor Kurdish groups), governors preferred to make the cheuvinism and Turkey experienced a de facto civil war (I think, this hidden civil war continues in low-intensity form).

Another factor was, by the collapse of Soviet Union, new Turkish-originated countries appeared (Central Asia and Azerbaijan). Turkish big bourgeoisie tried to establish new trade routes with these countries and Turkish statemen promoted "light nationalism-economic integration". For instance, Turgut Ozal claimed "21st century will be Turkish century" or Suleyman Demirel developed "from the Great Wall of China to Adriatic Sea, Turkish world" rhetoric.

Third factor was the rise of Islamic movement. This rise can be diagnosed the election victory of Luxury Party (RP) in 1995. Westist-secular wing supported secular-nationalist against Islamic movements, especially to conceal/hush up Susurluk scandal. This is identified in 28 February army intervention (1997). In this era, army organized "civil bands" illegally and these bands committed many crimes and this phenomenon is identified in the personality of Veli Kucuk.

Ardakilic, your personal analysis seems to be very accurate from what I've read as well.

The people that are protesting are the mainstream, Ataturkists/pro secularists, which is all well and good but many are also probably anti-liberal and right-wing. Whether AKP is as devoutly Islamic as they may think, I have to begrudgingly admit that they did more for their country with regards to human rights and liberalization than any other government in the last 80 years. Perhaps that isn't saying much but they seemed to have bridges to both Europe and the Islamic world and are certainly more respected outside Turkey than say the CHP, MHP or ANATAVAN (well, perhaps not respected in the U.S State Dept. )

- While to people of Istanbul, Izmir and Ankara might be extremely pro secular the rest of the country has strong religion roots.

- The whole 10% threshold for politcal partie was enacted by the Ataturkista and now they seem to argue hypocritically against the law.

- Turkey is not a country where dissenting voices are protected and tolerated so the people ,even though alarmed of a military coup, would support it.

[Joseph]

From what I can see through watching the TV etc, Turkey is very much on the brink of an enormous change. As a person who knows a little bit about the mentality of the Turkish people yet attempts to look at it from the outside, I would say that the nationalists are indeed feeling more nationalistic than ever. Which means that they probably are not ready to accept or recognize any past acts (namely the Genocide) they have committed. The fear is too great. Once everything settles down, (hopefully in the way we want it to be) and once the tension and the fear is diminished, then it could be possible...I think that the majority of the nationalists right now are too protective of their country to even come close to admitting any past thing that might mar the Turkish nation. Because most people will probably realize that once the Armenian issue is brought forward, that will divide the people even further. And the Turkish nationalists are in no position to afford that.
This is just a thought, so perhaps someone who follows this issue more closely than I, can enlighten me

Thanks for your comments, Jade.

I actually agree with elendil on the issue of Genocide recognition. It will probably never happen. I don't forsee any type of openess or real liberaliszation coming to Turkey, perhaps for decades. I would love to be wrong because Turkey and most certainly her neighbors would benefit from it but I think we all know the following genralizations about Turkey (and yest these are generalizations, but can be gathered from any foreigner when in Turkey):

1. They tend to be militaristic;
2. They look down upon intellectuals and free thinkers;
3. They jealousy guard the status quo;
4. They have a group mentality;
5. Nationalsim is a religion;
6. History began in 1923;
7. They respect power and power only;
8. Hospitable (they remind you of this constantly) but angered at the drop of hat;
9. Prone to conspiracy theories and this is encouraged by the government; to be suspicious of...everything;
10. Stubborn to the point of cutting of their nose to spite their face;
11. Extremely insecure about their country and its place in the world;
12. Are their own worst enemy on many occasions;
13. Loyal to a government/system that continually treats them like a flock of sheep.
14. Turkeys is really two countries (Istanbul, Izmir, Bursa, Ankara- and then there is the rest of the country)

As I've said, many of these aspects are not always negative and it does keep the country in the grip of Ataturk.

And if you want me to give a write up on the faults/characteristics of Armenians, well I can do that too

The above characterics can also be applied to Argentina as well ( I lived there for several years) minus #'s 1,5,7

[bell-the-cat]

8. Hospitable (they remind you of this constantly) but angered at the drop of hat;

That one actually applies to Armenians, I think.

Turks tend to store their anger away, then when they have gathered enough of it they will let it all burst out at one time - so although it might seem they are acting crazy over a trivial thing, they are probably several 100 other things they are angry about at the same time.

[Joseph]

That one actually applies to Armenians, I think.

Turks tend to store their anger away, then when they have gathered enough of it they will let it all burst out at one time - so although it might seem they are acting crazy over a trivial thing, they are probably several 100 other things they are angry about at the same time.

Armenians also share that charateristic but the Turks take it to a whole new level like I've never witnessed before anywhere else.

Your second point is interesting and I have noticed that behavior. They can seem relatively complacent to a degree but get very angry quickly when they are questioned or proven wrong regarding anything..even more so than latins. (Man, I sound racist but the sad fact is that peoples/nations as a whole both willingly and unwillingly can and do fall into stereotypes although it is not politically correct to think so. )

[Joseph]

I don't have a claim about "enlightening" anybody but i can give some contribution. Although these meetings (14 April and consequents) seem "civil protest against government" form the outside, they openly provocate and promote an army coup and their main slogan was "army to duty". As you know from media, last week army gave momerandum but -at least now- government resists.

RISING OF ULTRA-NATIONALISM
-summary from "Militaristic Intervention and Fascism", Revolutionary Marxism Journal, March 2007, p.9-21-

Rising of ultra-nationalism can be evaluated into three stages. First stage coincide with the middle of 90s. By the improvement of Kurdish guerilla action (mainly PKK and other minor Kurdish groups), governors preferred to make the cheuvinism and Turkey experienced a de facto civil war (I think, this hidden civil war continues in low-intensity form).

Another factor was, by the collapse of Soviet Union, new Turkish-originated countries appeared (Central Asia and Azerbaijan). Turkish big bourgeoisie tried to establish new trade routes with these countries and Turkish statemen promoted "light nationalism-economic integration". For instance, Turgut Ozal claimed "21st century will be Turkish century" or Suleyman Demirel developed "from the Great Wall of China to Adriatic Sea, Turkish world" rhetoric.

Third factor was the rise of Islamic movement. This rise can be diagnosed the election victory of Luxury Party (RP) in 1995. Westist-secular wing supported secular-nationalist against Islamic movements, especially to conceal/hush up Susurluk scandal. This is identified in 28 February army intervention (1997). In this era, army organized "civil bands" illegally and these bands committed many crimes and this phenomenon is identified in the personality of Veli Kucuk.

All I know is that if a civil war emerges or even something similar to the events in 1980, the Armenian community will melt further away or certainly make new lives elsewhere. My church in DC will probably triple in size, like it did in the early-80's when so many Bolsahye arrived to escape the turmoil and the possibility of being scapegoated.