Christians targeted for death in Turkey

[1.5 million]

- While to people of Istanbul, Izmir and Ankara might be extremely pro secular the rest of the country has strong religion roots.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that these cities contain mostly wordly/cosmopolitian individuals - this is not the case. While many are educated and western (like) - the Islamists have made incredible gains in the last 10-15 years - even in these urban areas (mayor of Istanbul from Islamic party for instance). One must realize that Ataturk - mostly through force of personality and through his hero status brought about by his victories in the Turkish War of Independence etc - was able to effect things way beyond the norm - however much of this was veneer and not wholly integrated throughout Turkish society - which largely remained as it has always been. The yearnings for Islamic rule (and rejection of liberal ideas from the West) and the thinking by many Turks that they still live in an Islamic society and nation is still quite strong. Much blood will likely be shed (again) for this to be solved...Islamic parties are quite shrewd. They have everyone snookered that they are something they are not - and they are happy to wait and bide their time (any confrontation right now and they would lose - Turkish military is still too strong)...but one day - when the time is right...well you know how it goes...

[Joseph]

Don't fool yourself into thinking that these cities contain mostly wordly/cosmopolitian individuals - this is not the case. While many are educated and western (like) - the Islamists have made incredible gains in the last 10-15 years - even in these urban areas (mayor of Istanbul from Islamic party for instance). One must realize that Ataturk - mostly through force of personality and through his hero status brought about by his victories in the Turkish War of Independence etc - was able to effect things way beyond the norm - however much of this was veneer and not wholly integrated throughout Turkish society - which largely remained as it has always been. The yearnings for Islamic rule (and rejection of liberal ideas from the West) and the thinking by many Turks that they still live in an Islamic society and nation is still quite strong. Much blood will likely be shed (again) for this to be solved...Islamic parties are quite shrewd. They have everyone snookered that they are something they are not - and they are happy to wait and bide their time (any confrontation right now and they would lose - Turkish military is still too strong)...but one day - when the time is right...well you know how it goes...

I wasn't really implying that they were necessarily the most worldly or cosmopolitan, just that they are the secular ones while the rest of the country is more islamic to varying degrees. I basically agree with your description. As an outsider, or at least one with an eye for social issues, you cannot help but notice the two countries trying to somehow coexist and how it may one day explode.

[elendil]

There are simply two strong glues for the Turkish nation.
1. Nationalism
2. Religion

Nationalism holds the sense of brotherhood alive, therefore keeping the nation together against outside world at least . Also lessens the clashing of social classes to a degree.
Religion holds different muslim ethnic elements together. Sects, orders and thousands variations of Islam is also connected under the identity muslimhood.

Ofcourse this attitude has both its cons and pros.

[imported_DHolyGhost]

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18110

[Jade]

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18110

Can I please just say as a Turk, WHAT UTTER BULLxxxx!
And I've never swore in this forum before so...it must mean something

[elendil]

1. They tend to be militaristic;

Yes Sir.

2. They look down upon intellectuals and free thinkers;

We do not look down on them, they look down on us. The correct sentence would be there is a certain amount of dislike in Turkish population for its "intellectuals".

3. They jealousy guard the status quo;

It has been a rare sight in Turkey when things change they change for good.

4. They have a group mentality;

Alas, true.

5. Nationalsim is a religion;

Ofcourse it is, that is anything you believe in, is a religion.

6. History began in 1923;

Depends on which part of Turkish nation you refer to

For MHP, it begins with the formation of the first Turkish army in central Asia. (B.C 305 if I remember correctly)

For intellectuals of Turkey it begins with Seikh Sait rebellion or Armenian issue.

For republicans or Kemalists it begins at 1923

For religious part it begins when we became muslims which is at the time of Gazneliler but main stream begins with Seljuk.

7. They respect power and power only;

Quite wrong, this one. Our love for the army has deeper roots simply.

8. Hospitable (they remind you of this constantly) but angered at the drop of hat;

It depends. There are three elements that you must not insult. Turkishness, Religion and family. If you avoid these it is very hard to get in trouble (I speak for decent people ofcourse)

9. Prone to conspiracy theories and this is encouraged by the government; to be suspicious of...everything;

True, our nation simply loves to things to be more then meets the eye.

10. Stubborn to the point of cutting of their nose to spite their face;

11. Extremely insecure about their country and its place in the world;

There is always war in middle-east. Always strife. I do not think that anyone feels secure in this geography.

12. Are their own worst enemy on many occasions;

No comment.

13. Loyal to a government/system that continually treats them like a flock of sheep

Simply tradition. Hurts us a great deal ofcourse

14. Turkeys is really two countries (Istanbul, Izmir, Bursa, Ankara- and then there is the rest of the country)

No not really. Gaziantep, Adana, Trabzon. Besides you can experience Hakkari, Diyarbakır, Sivas in the out skirts of İstanbul.

[1.5 million]

Elendil - very good answers. And are you sure that for #14 you refer only to OUTSIDE Istanbul? lol (this was a primary thrust of my prior post...)

On a more serious side - this issue of Turkish identity is an interesting one. It is very much a comparatively recent thing - though established as it was - on a great deal of blood - that of Turks of course - but many others as well - well we can see what a monster has been created....

[ardakilic]

About the monster

well we can see what a monster has been created....

Another taboo of Turkish society (out of religion, nation and family) is "Kurdish question" and PKK. During 90s -and still in a lighter form- media/state/bourgeoisie alliance incited hostility/cheuvinism. I note this as the major factor of creation of the monster.

Self determination right of Kurdish nation is a turnsole paper to test one's sincerity.

What the interesting is, to make the montser bigger, so-called leftists tried much more than the 'traditional right'. Of course, i except and exclude Marxist/revolutionary left/liberal left.

A precious intelectual's, Marxist sociolog Idris Kucukomer's analysis came to my mind, Once he wrote, "In Turkey, left is right and right is left".

[bell-the-cat]

Can I please just say as a Turk, WHAT UTTER BULLxxxx!
And I've never swore in this forum before so...it must mean something

Don't apologise.
You said what I thought, and what I hope others think too.

[bell-the-cat]

A precious intelectual's, Marxist sociolog Idris Kucukomer's analysis came to my mind, Once he wrote, "In Turkey, left is right and right is left".

Mostly, in Turkey, the Right is the Right, and the Left is also the Right.