Interesting Kurdish perspective

[Khorovatz]

Khorovatz, toon oor deghen es, yev oor deghen hayren sorvetzar? Yev inch oo as Kurdere ches seerer?

Inchoo akh Inchoo?

Chem sirum k'urdere vorovhetev en mart'aspaner..


-Massacres of Armenians by Turks and Kurds (1894, Sassun)-

"Sassun was a mountainous region which Armenians had been able to keep a semi-independence, like, Zeitun." It was the center of Armenian influence. Sassun was located west of the Mush plain and included 40 villages. Mush was about 40 miles west of Lake Van. To the Kurdish tribes and Turks, Sassun was an object of envy. This is because the land of Sassun was very fertile, had much harvest, and prosperity."

The Turkish government had been encouraging the Kurds to continue to raid the Armenian villages in Sassun."The (Turkish) government decided to make the advance and reiterated its instructions to the Kurdish chiefs to attack the whole section, west of the Mush plain and known now as Sassun, which included about forty villages. They came on every side and practically besieged the whole province. They stole animals, and the result was occasional contests in which one or more on either side fell."

The Turkish government reinforced the Kurds with soldiers and regular troops because the Armenians were able to defend themselves fiercely against the Kurds. The Kurdish soldiers along with the Turkish soldiers completely surrounded Mush and were outnumbering the villagers. This led to a bloody massacre of the Armenians in Sassun, Mush.

"On every hand it was proclaimed that there must be a clean sweep; that the whole population of the Armenian district must be exterminated. In one village the priest, and some of the leading men, went out to meet the Turkish officer, declaring their loyalty, and begging for mercy. It was all to no avail.

The village was surrounded and every man put to death. A number of able-bodied young Armenians were captured, bound, covered with brushwood and burned alive. A number of Armenians, variously estimated, but less than a hundred, surrendered themselves and pled for mercy. Many of them were shot down on the spot and the remainder were dispatched with sword and bayonet.

Sixty young women and girls were selected from one village, and placed in a church, when the soldiers were ordered to do with them as they liked, after which they were butchered. Children were placed in a row, one behind another, and a bullet fired down the line, apparently to see how many could be despatched with one bullet. Infants and small children were piled one on the other and their heads struck off. Houses were surrounded by soldiers, set on fire, and the inmates forced back into the flames at the point of the bayonet as they tried to escape."

[Khorovatz]

"Bordered with high mountains on every side it was always an object of envy to the Kurdish tribes. Incursions had been repeatedly made and some result was manifest in the increase of Moslem villages here and there over the plain. Still, however, it was the center of Armenian influence in that section; even Bitlis and Van were scarcely more intensely Armenian than Mush."

-Propogranda and Dirty Politics used by the Kurds against Armenians-


He (kurdish tribal leader) asked them (Armenians) why they did not submit to the government and pay taxes. Their reply was that they were not at all disloyal to the Turkish government, but could not pay taxes twice, to Kurds and to the Turkish government. If the Turkish authorities would give protection, they were perfectly willing to pay the taxes. During the winter several of their leaders were invited to Mush but declined to accept.

With the advent of the spring of 1894, the situation became worse. The government decided to make the advance and reiterated its instructions to the Kurdish chiefs to attack the whole section, west of the Mush plain and known now as Sassun, which included about forty villages. They came on every side and practically besieged the whole province. They stole animals, and the result was occasional contests in which one or more on either side fell. On one occasion the Kurds succeeded in securing the bodies of two of their comrades who had been killed, and carried them to the government at the city of Mush, reporting that the whole region was filled with armed men, who were defying the power of the government. Then followed a general attack upon the different villages. The Armenians had the better situation, and defended themselves with considerable success. The Kurds appeared to be unequal to the task of subduing them. The government reinforced them with soldiers, regular troops, but generally in disguise so as to retain as far as possible the appearance of the ordinary contests that had been going on for years between the villagers and the Kurdish chiefs."

[Khorovatz]

Who says Yesidi so-called "Kurds" are angry at Armenians? Unless they are angry at Armenians insulting them by calling them "Kurds"!

They're angry because they have nothing. (Yezidi, by the way, is one of the religious sect within the Kurdish race. The majority of the existing Yezidi's are Kurds.)

Armenia, unlike Kurdistan and Turkey, has true history. We are one of the "cradles of civilzation". Historians have labeled us that for a reason. Ancient Armenia had emperors, artifacts, cities, military, agriculture, and irrigation systems. We created cities, schools, and numerous institutions.

Turks and Kurds only have a barbaric, and mountainous, savage-like history.

[bell-the-cat]

They're angry because they have nothing. (Yezidi, by the way, is one of the religious sect within the Kurdish race. The majority of the existing Yezidi's are Kurds.)

Armenia, unlike Kurdistan and Turkey, has true history. We are one of the "cradles of civilzation". Historians have labeled us that for a reason. Ancient Armenia had emperors, artifacts, cities, military, agriculture, and irrigation systems. We created cities, schools, and numerous institutions.

Turks and Kurds only have a barbaric, and mountainous, savage-like history.

The Yezidi are an ethnic group and they are probably not Kurds. Don't believe the Kurdish propaganda.

[Joseph]

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/forum/read.html?id=13024#comments

Some Questions to Israel

Israel is providing equipment and intelligence to the Turkish army which helps them to fight the Kurdish freedom and democracy movement. Why is Israel doing that?

As a Kurd, I want to know from the State of Israel;

Why is Israel allied with the Turkish military? Why does Israel support the Turkish forces in murdering Kurdish civilians? Why does Israel provide unmanned aerial vehicles, intelligence, and equipment used by the Turks to attack the Kurdish liberation movement, capture, torture, murder our freedom fighters? Why does Israel participate in the Turkish crimes against humanity? Why does Israel support the Turkish military dictatorship and thus a status quo that is barbaric, criminal, genocidal? Why does Israel support the Turkish propaganda, tyranny, fascism?

What are the benefits of this partnership for Israel? Why does Israel value an alliance with a state which is Islamic, which has traditionally, emotionally, religiously always sided with the Palestinian Muslims? Why does it believe in a friendly Turkish state which actually permits and supports anti-Israel, anti-Jewish propaganda in its schools, media, mosques? Are the Jews still dhimmis of the Turks, as they were under the Ottomans? Is Israel afraid of Turkey? Has Ankara perhaps threatened you, forced you to cooperate?

Or is Israel simply following US guidelines for maintaining Western “strategic interests” in the Middle East? Why did Israeli governments and Jewish organizations in the USA help prevent, on behalf of the Turkish regime, the recognition of the Armenian genocide by Senate and Congress? Why is the genocide, after nine decades of proven facts and documentation, still not been recognized by your own parliament? Isn’t that a shame for the State of Israel and for all those conscious of the Shoah? How can Israel complain about Ahmadinejad’s statement of the Holocaust being a myth when at the same the Jewish parliament refuses to recognize the Armenian genocide? Shouldn’t Israel be different from other nations? Shouldn’t Israel be a beacon of moral conscious, truth, hope, and justice for the world? Why is Israel engaged in double games and double-standards of realpolitik?

But what really is Israel’s gain in all of this? In what ways does Israel profit from collaborating with the Turkish regime and military, a state which denies the existence and rights of 30 million people, which is suppressing their identity, language, and culture, which is burning and bombarding their villages, which is humiliating, terrorizing, murdering innocent men, women, and children just because they are Kurds who want to live as free Kurds. Don’t the Jews have any empathy at all for the suffering of a defenceless people? Why is there no word of condemnation from Israel about the Turkish atrocities and crimes? Why is Israel silent? Is it just (weapons) business as usual, are profits more important than human life?

At least why doesn’t Israel remain neutral, why is it engaged on the Turkish side? Does Israel hope the Turks will be on their side in case of war with Iran? Don’t the Jews know that the Turkish Muslims will not fight another Muslim state that has the same strategic interests in the region, which is the domination over the Kurds, occupation and exploitation of Kurdish lands? Don’t they know that the Turkish and Iranian regimes have agreements on that and are cooperating for decades? Do the Jews really believe that their purpose is served by supporting a state of terror and crime, and that this will lead to more security in their neighbourhood, to peace with the Arabs?

Why help bomb a movement that truly strives for freedom and democracy, that could be a natural ally of Israel?

What are Israel’s reasons for a pact with the Devil?

[hitite]

Armenia, unlike Kurdistan and Turkey, has true history. We are one of the "cradles of civilzation". Historians have labeled us that for a reason. Ancient Armenia had emperors, artifacts, cities, military, agriculture, and irrigation systems. We created cities, schools, and numerous institutions.

Turks and Kurds only have a barbaric, and mountainous, savage-like history.

Another "Armenian turned into Turk". So who thought only savage Turks were susceptible to brainwashing and racism? Take a good look at yourself buddy.

Do they teach this to you at Armenian sunday school or church?.. I really am curious.

Joseph, do you have any serious articles on Armenian racism that we can read for a change? I really would like to understand where young generations of diaspora Armenians are getting this hatred for Turks, Kurds, Jews, Yezidis etc. and under what conditions.

[Joseph]

Another "Armenian turned into Turk". So who thought only savage Turks were susceptible to brainwashing and racism? Take a good look at yourself buddy.

Do they teach this to you at Armenian sunday school or church?.. I really am curious.

Joseph, do you have any serious articles on Armenian racism that we can read for a change? I really would like to understand where young generations of diaspora Armenians are getting this hatred for Turks, Kurds, Jews, Yezidis etc. and under what conditions.

Armenians have no qualms with the Yezidis despite what Khorovatz has written.

Armenians are not by nature anti-semitic and most of us acknowledge that many Jews are our allies and friends. We are angry at Israel and Jewish lobbying organizations for their active role in trying to cover-up the Armenian Genocide for political expediency or other nefarious reasons.

Many Armenians do indeed hate the Kurds, Circassians, Laz, Tatars, etc for their active and enthusiastic role in the Hamidian and WWI Genocides. For them, the Armenians were nothing but infidel dhimmis who were allowed to be robbed, raped, and massacred with impunity. They were encouraged in this role by the Turks, and for centuries, Armenians had to endure this without a complaint prior to the Genocide. The animosity Armenians feel was not created in a vacuum.

As all humans, Armenians are just as susceptible to hatred as anyone else, although our hatred seems to be solely focused on Turks/Azeris/Circassians,etc for obvious reasons.

The Armenian hatred is based upon:

We're aware on a daily basis that our 3,000 year old presence and history in Asia Minor has been stolen, destroyed, and/or appropriated by Turks. Maybe this is cause for celebration and pride for many in Turkey but it is a daily humiliation for Armenians and other Christians who suffered.

Compared to other known civilizations during our existence in Asia Minor, ours was for the most part cosmopolitan, mercantile, tolerant {Armenians did not try to convert others to their church}, educated/literate, peaceful {besides a few very brief periods, Armenians did not ravage and conquer other peoples lands}. For the most part, we know our history well. Most of our battles have been fought for our own salvation, not for pillage or at the behest of kings and emperors.

Millions of Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, over the centuries have been killed, been forced to flee their homeland, or have been forcible converted. This is not something you forget, especially when your enemy further threatens the very existence of your people or belittles what was has been stolen or the suffering incurred.

Turkey/Turks have seemingly gotten away with their crime and as a defense mechanism they try to portray the victims as aggressors. We seem to be a page in history they would like to forget but we will not let that happen. Doing so would mean that we have forgiven, which we have not.

The insults from Turkey mount daily and they are there for anyone to see. Not only has there has been no restitution, but at the very least, not even an acknowledgement of what was done. There has been no closure for us and even worse, Armenians in Armenia are in a situation where they have two hostile Turkish neighbors. How can we be expected to be ambivalent or forgiving? How can we even be expected to be magnanimous towards our enemies?

For decades, we have had unfiltered access to information regarding the genocide including Turkish propaganda whereas until the advent of the internet, Turks have been fed on the official state thesis.

I know that there are Turks who realize the extent of what was done and acknowledge, but they are a mere drop in the ocean and powerless to make any reforms or changes that matter to us. If they were the majority, perhaps things could be different.

Despite what might be propagated about Armenians in Turkey and elsewhere, or church takes a "secular" view when it comes to politics and history. Our priests usually focus on the Divine Liturgy, Gospel, and Church related activities.

As far as Armenians being taught to hate Turks, I can tell you as an active member of the Armenian Diaspora community that there are no "classes" or "seminars" related to teaching us to hate. Any Armenian can basically read what has been written regarding Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, {by both Armenians and non-Armenians} and then see how the Turks have responded with some of the most idiotic and ludicrous pseudo-history that has ever been formulated.

Furthermore, every single diasporan Armenian's family was victimized. The Genocide by Turks created the very Diaspora that Turkey complains about today. We live in the US, Australia, France, Lebanon, Iran, Russia, etc for a reason. And though many have prospered, we cannot forget where our families came from or let go of the anger we have towards those who inflicted slow death and torture upon us. Nor can we forget the current, on-going injustice inflicted by Turkey on Armenia/Armenians.

While Armenian hostility is not based upon a racial superiority theories related to other people, we have borne witness to the proto-Nazi pan-Turkic rhetoric that is the driving force and foundation of Turkish society, both then and now.

In the end, Armenians were killed because they were the "Other". We had the audacity to remain Christian, to speak our own language, to desire to live as equals, but that was more than the Turks could bear.

[Steph]

Very well written Joseph. I think that pretty well sums up most folks opinion here.

[imported_crusader1492]

Great summation Joseph...although I tend to believe it will fall on Hitite's deaf Turkish ears.

[Joseph]

Great summation Joseph...although I tend to believe it will fall on Hitite's deaf Turkish ears.

hitite isn't a bad guy. I respect him even though we tend to disagree on certain issues. He gets frustrated with some of the more overtly-nationalistic posters who come in here, be they Armenian or Turkish, stir up trouble, and then leave never to be heard from again.