Interesting Kurdish perspective

[lal]

.............Turkey/Turks have seemingly gotten away with their crime and as a defense mechanism they try to portray the victims as aggressors. We seem to be a page in history they would like to forget but we will not let that happen. Doing so would mean that we have forgiven, which we have not.



................In the end, Armenians were killed because they were the "Other". We had the audacity to remain Christian, to speak our own language, to desire to live as equals, but that was more than the Turks could bear.

ı wonder one thing. why do we insist being apart of some groups. american or arab etc. is this a natural instinct.like animals have.is it not possible to beat this feeling? am ı a maniac? cause ı have little of this.

individually,being a turk or greek or muslim or a christian or something else. what is the difference. we only happen to be born in some place and become the product of our enviroment.

in these days turkish army is taking her revenge from the kurds who recently killed tens of turkish soldiers. turkish public was in tense mood. now they are relaxed.

ı cant be happy about this war. ı ask myself. why cant ı be happy? am ı a real traitor, and cant feel turkish?

reality is this. ı dont feel any sympathy to kurds. ı also dont feel any sympathy to armenians. but also ı dont feel any sympathy to turks. we are all humans. and it is a primitive instinct makes us to call ourselves something and try to dominate the others.

if kurds overwelmingly want an independent country, why cant they have it. or why do they want to have an independent country. or isnt it easier to live together, respecting each other?

regarding the armenian genocide. for me it is not a crime only against armenians. it is a huge crime against humanity totally. we must not catagorise humans. a crime is a crime.this must not happen again.

one day we will leave these artificial differences,borders,racizm, and religons. we will be all humans. till that day ı consider all wars for lands, a criminal act.

lal

[Gavur]

ı wonder one thing. why do we insist being apart of some groups. american or arab etc. is this a natural instinct.like animals have.is it not possible to beat this feeling? am ı a maniac? cause ı have little of this.

individually,being a turk or greek or muslim or a christian or something else. what is the difference. we only happen to be born in some place and become the product of our enviroment.

in these days turkish army is taking her revenge from the kurds who recently killed tens of turkish soldiers. turkish public was in tense mood. now they are relaxed.

ı cant be happy about this war. ı ask myself. why cant ı be happy? am ı a real traitor, and cant feel turkish?

reality is this. ı dont feel any sympathy to kurds. ı also dont feel any sympathy to armenians. but also ı dont feel any sympathy to turks. we are all humans. and it is a primitive instinct makes us to call ourselves something and try to dominate the others.

if kurds overwelmingly want an independent country, why cant they have it. or why do they want to have an independent country. or isnt it easier to live together, respecting each other?

regarding the armenian genocide. for me it is not a crime only against armenians. it is a huge crime against humanity totally. we must not catagorise humans. a crime is a crime.this must not happen again.

one day we will leave these artificial differences,borders,racizm, and religons. we will be all humans. till that day ı consider all wars for lands, a criminal act.

lal

Good questions lal, to ask one self.
First, ease of something has never been a substitute for correctness, also the Original is always better then generic in all cases.
If one values family those things you mention cannot be artificial,so your suggesting we get all we need as humans outside of family structure and become an artificial society!no thanks, that is Genocide as well.

[hitite]

ı wonder one thing. why do we insist being apart of some groups. american or arab etc. is this a natural instinct.like animals have.is it not possible to beat this feeling? am ı a maniac? cause ı have little of this.

IMO it is a natural survival instinct. I guess if cave men did not flock together there would be no human race

You are not a maniac lal since your thoughts are not unique to yourself. You seem to dwell a good deal on a Lenonistic utopia which does not tranlate well into present day reality since it does not offer any practical and applicable solutions to the problems of today.

I dont think the human race will unite in worldwide peace and love one another until there is a common threat from, say, Mars or until we evolve into Homo Sapiens 'Numb'us

[hitite]

Armenians have no qualms with the Yezidis despite what Khorovatz has written.

Armenians are not by nature anti-semitic and most of us acknowledge that many Jews are our allies and friends. We are angry at Israel and Jewish lobbying organizations for their active role in trying to cover-up the Armenian Genocide for political expediency or other nefarious reasons.

Many Armenians do indeed hate the Kurds, Circassians, Laz, Tatars, etc for their active and enthusiastic role in the Hamidian and WWI Genocides. For them, the Armenians were nothing but infidel dhimmis who were allowed to be robbed, raped, and massacred with impunity. They were encouraged in this role by the Turks, and for centuries, Armenians had to endure this without a complaint prior to the Genocide. The animosity Armenians feel was not created in a vacuum.

As all humans, Armenians are just as susceptible to hatred as anyone else, although our hatred seems to be solely focused on Turks/Azeris/Circassians,etc for obvious reasons.

The Armenian hatred is based upon:

We're aware on a daily basis that our 3,000 year old presence and history in Asia Minor has been stolen, destroyed, and/or appropriated by Turks. Maybe this is cause for celebration and pride for many in Turkey but it is a daily humiliation for Armenians and other Christians who suffered.

Compared to other known civilizations during our existence in Asia Minor, ours was for the most part cosmopolitan, mercantile, tolerant {Armenians did not try to convert others to their church}, educated/literate, peaceful {besides a few very brief periods, Armenians did not ravage and conquer other peoples lands}. For the most part, we know our history well. Most of our battles have been fought for our own salvation, not for pillage or at the behest of kings and emperors.

Millions of Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, over the centuries have been killed, been forced to flee their homeland, or have been forcible converted. This is not something you forget, especially when your enemy further threatens the very existence of your people or belittles what was has been stolen or the suffering incurred.

Turkey/Turks have seemingly gotten away with their crime and as a defense mechanism they try to portray the victims as aggressors. We seem to be a page in history they would like to forget but we will not let that happen. Doing so would mean that we have forgiven, which we have not.

The insults from Turkey mount daily and they are there for anyone to see. Not only has there has been no restitution, but at the very least, not even an acknowledgement of what was done. There has been no closure for us and even worse, Armenians in Armenia are in a situation where they have two hostile Turkish neighbors. How can we be expected to be ambivalent or forgiving? How can we even be expected to be magnanimous towards our enemies?

For decades, we have had unfiltered access to information regarding the genocide including Turkish propaganda whereas until the advent of the internet, Turks have been fed on the official state thesis.

I know that there are Turks who realize the extent of what was done and acknowledge, but they are a mere drop in the ocean and powerless to make any reforms or changes that matter to us. If they were the majority, perhaps things could be different.

Despite what might be propagated about Armenians in Turkey and elsewhere, or church takes a "secular" view when it comes to politics and history. Our priests usually focus on the Divine Liturgy, Gospel, and Church related activities.

As far as Armenians being taught to hate Turks, I can tell you as an active member of the Armenian Diaspora community that there are no "classes" or "seminars" related to teaching us to hate. Any Armenian can basically read what has been written regarding Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, {by both Armenians and non-Armenians} and then see how the Turks have responded with some of the most idiotic and ludicrous pseudo-history that has ever been formulated.

Furthermore, every single diasporan Armenian's family was victimized. The Genocide by Turks created the very Diaspora that Turkey complains about today. We live in the US, Australia, France, Lebanon, Iran, Russia, etc for a reason. And though many have prospered, we cannot forget where our families came from or let go of the anger we have towards those who inflicted slow death and torture upon us. Nor can we forget the current, on-going injustice inflicted by Turkey on Armenia/Armenians.

While Armenian hostility is not based upon a racial superiority theories related to other people, we have borne witness to the proto-Nazi pan-Turkic rhetoric that is the driving force and foundation of Turkish society, both then and now.

In the end, Armenians were killed because they were the "Other". We had the audacity to remain Christian, to speak our own language, to desire to live as equals, but that was more than the Turks could bear.

Thank you for your reply.

Armenia 'does' have problems with their Yezidi population but they seem to be working on it.

I understand where the hatred towards Turks comes from, that was not exactly what I was asking about. Where it comes from is quite obvious. As I said before we all have our sad stories from the past, Armenians I believe have a lot more.

What I really was wondering about was if Turks are really portrayed in your schools, churches and grandma stories as the evil, bloodthirsty, brainwashed, stupid Mongolian from which only a few handfull have proven to be good citizens of the world since they helped Armenians flee from the Genocide and hid them. I see many Armenians on this forum that seem ok on a lot of topics but pull out their blunt "Turks are brainwashed idiots" swords when they have nothing better to say. When confronted with their own rascism and prejudice towards others they deny possessing those traits, since doing that is all so very Turkish. So how does an Armenian get to be the person who possesses a lot of the evil he accuses the Turk of having and yet does not chose to see that he himself is embelished by it, even though this is not taught in your schools and churches?

I never would say that Turks are the epitome of humanity and that we are god send rulers of this worldly domain kind of xxxx that some armenains here quite easliy (and amusingly) come to praise their own race. However I am roud of being a Turk like many other Turks and how many Armenians are proud of being Armenians. We are not perfect in any way, quite to the contrary we have done many wrongs and are continuing to do so but I am still proud. Its probably the kind of pride you feel towards your child who knows nothing but is trying hard. We are still a people who send their sons to the army and to war with huge commotions and no matter how the state may have misused their dead sons everybody still says they would give all their 5 sons for their country if they had to. We are too much of a warrior nation at a time when we dont need to be.

This reality makes Turkish society as a whole seem it is based on a "proto-Nazi pan-Turkic... foundation" to a more individualistic and friendly Armenian like yourself. I would say the reality is far from it. Turks may be patriotic but pan-Turkic, proto-nazi????

[imported_crusader1492]

However I am roud of being a Turk like many other Turks and how many Armenians are proud of being Armenians.

I believe that you are a proud Turk (like so many other Turks, as you pointed out). However, I believe your pride stems from jingoistic brainwashing and low standards in measuring success.

Turkish pride can be likened to a Turkish child, presenting his school report card to his parents...

"Mom, Dad here's my report card!"...

"Wow, straight C's, a D in math and a A+ in Kemalism class. I'm so proud of you. Keep up the good work!"..."and because you did so well, we bought you a gift"

"Wow a new headscarf! I can't wait to wear it in school tomorrow. Thanks Mom and Dad!"

[hitite]

However, I believe your pride stems from jingoistic brainwashing and low standards in measuring success.

When you become so predictable you become less amusing.

A lot of you guys seem to have received your Phd's from the same kindergarten.

[1.5 million]

Well lal - I'm very sorry to hear that you have no sympathy for anyone - maybe this is a real part of your problem (having an otherwise good outlook on things). I have sympathy for Turks, Kurds and Armenians and think I understand - to some degree - the perspectives of each. Ultimatly, yes - we are all human - with pretty much the same needs, desires and conditions in life - and any thinking/feeling human being shold be able to have some sympathy based on just this fact alone.

Regarding your lack of enthusiam regarding the Turkish aggression against the Kurds in Iraq...well many Americans don't have much enthusiam for the American actions in Iraq either - and perhaps for much the same reason. When governments act in self justifying manners and with rhetoric that suggests that they are doing the right thing for some noble cause - but when everyone (with a brain) understands that the actions are really being taken for internal consumption - to rally around the flag and hit against supposed enemies of the people - well - you might not conciously realize - but it never feels good to be so intentionally and obviously duped. So you shouldn't feel good about being manipulated such by your government - particularly when it directly perpetuates and enforces the racist underpinnings of your government and society and continues the type of xenophobia that was responsible for the Armenian Genocide in the first place, its continued denial, and the continued petulant single-minded infant state of your government/nation which cannot seem to ever really break away from its inglorious past - whether the people even remember or realize it or not - and policies/actions like this (combined with continued public denigration of the Kurds) only digs you deeper.

[bell-the-cat]

When you become so predictable you become less amusing.

Or more amusing.

[lal]

Well lal - I'm very sorry to hear that you have no sympathy for anyone - maybe this is a real part of your problem (having an otherwise good outlook on things). I have sympathy for Turks, Kurds and Armenians and think I understand - to some degree - the perspectives of each. Ultimatly, yes - we are all human - with pretty much the same needs, desires and conditions in life - and any thinking/feeling human being shold be able to have some sympathy based on just this fact alone.

Regarding your lack of enthusiam regarding the Turkish aggression against the Kurds in Iraq...well many Americans don't have much enthusiam for the American actions in Iraq either - and perhaps for much the same reason. When governments act in self justifying manners and with rhetoric that suggests that they are doing the right thing for some noble cause - but when everyone (with a brain) understands that the actions are really being taken for internal consumption - to rally around the flag and hit against supposed enemies of the people - well - you might not conciously realize - but it never feels good to be so intentionally and obviously duped. So you shouldn't feel good about being manipulated such by your government - particularly when it directly perpetuates and enforces the racist underpinnings of your government and society and continues the type of xenophobia that was responsible for the Armenian Genocide in the first place, its continued denial, and the continued petulant single-minded infant state of your government/nation which cannot seem to ever really break away from its inglorious past - whether the people even remember or realize it or not - and policies/actions like this (combined with continued public denigration of the Kurds) only digs you deeper.

ı am not somebody who is an intellectual. ı dont read too much. but ı follow a simple logic.
as long as religons and nationalities exist, people will nonstop continue to fight with each other for more power .
as long as we belong to some nation and religon, we will have some group of leaders who do dirty jobs and work mostly for themselves.
so, as long as humans need to belong into something ---even if this is a natural instinct--- we can not have a real sincere peace in no place on this earth.because the real goal will always remain the same.that is selfishly, ruthlessly beat the others.
ı have no sympathy anything other than peace.ı dont care the borders and races. humans must evolve. we must only fight to save our planet. we must only fight against power struggles and more wealth. we need to stop the extreme consumption going on.am ı a communist? not really.
well, how this can happen? ı dont know.
like ı said, ım only a simple person. but ı dont care if ım a dreamer or romantic or retated. ı will not belong to anything.my solutions are very simple.
so if the issue here is the acknowlegement of armenian genocide. my answer is very easy. ı openly accept it. if money is needed to be paid by turkish government, ı openly accept it.lets pay it. if lands are needed to be given, ı think we must join and become a one country. than ı can dance with an armenian guy.
you see ,if all people were as stupit as me and think simple, we would be able to beat the evil minded souls very easily. no?

lal

[lal]

[QUOTE=hitite;28302]

We are still a people who send their sons to the army and to war with huge commotions and no matter how the state may have misused their dead sons everybody still says they would give all their 5 sons for their country if they had to. We are too much of a warrior nation at a time when we dont need to be.

QUOTE]



well,ı believe that this must change for sure. turks must have other talents than killing and die.life has other catagories. ı would change my nationality if ı had to send my son to die for something that ı dont respect at all. ı want a different turkey....