It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recognition

[egeli]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

Afterwards came kemalism which is an nationalist, atheist ideology. In Turkey, religion is under the domination of the State, is prisonner of the State. In Ankara, there is the bureaucraty of "the Dinayet" which depends directely from the Prime Minister :

http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/english/default.asp

.fr/fr/6histoire/a_d/20_procesunionistes1919.htm[/url]
#8653

Kemalism had nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide, as it didn't even exist at the time. The perpetrators were Turanists, they indeed did exploit Islam for exterminating all remmants of Christian Anatolia. However, Islam in the end WAS the primary means of executing the genocide. Villagers in Eastern Anatolia did not have any knowledge of ethnic identity at the time, you were either muslim or gavur.

[CRDA-France]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

Kemalism had nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide, as it didn't even exist at the time. The perpetrators were Turanists, they indeed did exploit Islam for exterminating all remmants of Christian Anatolia. However, Islam in the end WAS the primary means of executing the genocide. Villagers in Eastern Anatolia did not have any knowledge of ethnic identity at the time, you were either muslim or gavur.

This is an approach based on religion, a visible part of the iceberg.

The Turkish behaviour can be analyzed on two deeper phenomenums which are :

- 1/ a relation based on land [colonial state (Ottoman Empire) // indigenous peoples (Armenians -Kurds)] = as [Prussia // Slavic peoples] = as [USA // native Indians] = as [Israel // Palestinians]

- 2/ an anthropological relation with the Ottoman "Blood Tax" called "Devshirmeh" : an ethnic vampirization which lasted 3 centuries in the Ottoman Empire (2 centuries for the Armenians). This massive "Blood Tax" only happened with the Turks. This did not happen with other muslim countries.

>>> http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en :
- http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad..._devchirme.htm
- http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...liographie.htm

What has happenned with Kemalism and today with Turkish denial http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...ationnisme.htm
is the last phase of these two important phenomenums hidden by our traditional religious point of view.

That is why we (Middle Eastern Christians) can speak with doctors of islam, with learned muslims showing that (racial) panturanist and (atheist-nationalist) kemalist ideologies have nothing to do with islam.

Nil (Paris)
#8821

[Jos]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

This is an approach based on religion, a visible part of the iceberg.

The Turkish behaviour can be analyzed on two deeper phenomenums which are :

- 1/ a relation based on land [colonial state (Ottoman Empire) // indigenous peoples (Armenians -Kurds)] = as [Prussia // Slavic peoples] = as [USA // native Indians] = as [Israel // Palestinians]

- 2/ an anthropological relation with the Ottoman "Blood Tax" called "Devshirmeh" : an ethnic vampirization which lasted 3 centuries in the Ottoman Empire (2 centuries for the Armenians). This massive "Blood Tax" only happened with the Turks. This did not happen with other muslim countries.

>>> http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en :
- http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad..._devchirme.htm
- http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...liographie.htm

What has happenned with Kemalism and today with Turkish denial http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...ationnisme.htm
is the last phase of these two important phenomenums hidden by our traditional religious point of view.

That is why we (Middle Eastern Christians) can speak with doctors of islam, with learned muslims showing that (racial) panturanist and (atheist-nationalist) kemalist ideologies have nothing to do with islam.

Nil (Paris)
#8821

I think your thinly veiled attempt to create a wedge between Turks and other muslims won't get far. Regardless of your interpretation of kemalist ideologies there existed powerful symbols of islam in Kemalism to contradict and negate many criticisms on religious grounds. Regardless of what academic 'doctors of islam' say, it is not overlooked by 'non academic' muslims of the middle east and maghreb that Kemalist soldiers fought and died under the flag of the Crescent and Star to the cry of the Takbir Allāhu Akbar against invading Christian armies.

As for the Blood Tax, this was indeed a disgraceful imposition on minorities at the time. Nevertheless there may be a valid proposition that this tax granted special concesstions to Christians and j.ws allowing them to maintain their ethnic identities, practise their religions, languages, customs, traditions, exemptions from military conscription (not generally available to muslims of the empire). It may be argued that if it not were for the blood tax many more armenians would have been assimilated into the muslim identity.

[egeli]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

This is an approach based on religion, a visible part of the iceberg.

The Turkish behaviour can be analyzed on two deeper phenomenums which are :

- 1/ a relation based on land [colonial state (Ottoman Empire) // indigenous peoples (Armenians -Kurds)] = as [Prussia // Slavic peoples] = as [USA // native Indians] = as [Israel // Palestinians]

- 2/ an anthropological relation with the Ottoman "Blood Tax" called "Devshirmeh" : an ethnic vampirization which lasted 3 centuries in the Ottoman Empire (2 centuries for the Armenians). This massive "Blood Tax" only happened with the Turks. This did not happen with other muslim countries.

>>> http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en :
- http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad..._devchirme.htm
- http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...liographie.htm

What has happenned with Kemalism and today with Turkish denial http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...ationnisme.htm
is the last phase of these two important phenomenums hidden by our traditional religious point of view.

That is why we (Middle Eastern Christians) can speak with doctors of islam, with learned muslims showing that (racial) panturanist and (atheist-nationalist) kemalist ideologies have nothing to do with islam.

Nil (Paris)
#8821

Turkish Turanism is very closely tied with Islam. There are ethnic Turkic Christians. Turanists, Grey Wolves, MHP supporters, whatever you want to call them, don't consider these Turkic Christians as Turks. Turkish Turanism is a big lie anyway, its an artificial ethnic nationalism based on a desperate desire to ethnically distinguish Turks from indigenous Anatolians.

I hope everyone knows that this is silly, because Turks are mostly converts from Anatolia, the Balkans, and the Caucasus. As for Kemalism, Ataturk in a sense nationalized Islam. He had no other choice, as Islam has historically been the central identity for Turks.

For example, in the Devsirme, Christian boys were taken from their families and became servants to the Imperial court. They converted to Islam, and in turn became the most powerful and wealthy class (as Janissaries, or advisors to the Padishah) in the Ottoman Empire. At that point, they, and their descendants, became Turks.

[CRDA-France]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

-A1/ I think your thinly veiled attempt to create a wedge between Turks and other muslims won't get far.
-A2/ Regardless of your interpretation of kemalist ideologies there existed powerful symbols of islam in Kemalism to contradict and negate many criticisms on religious grounds.
- A3/ Regardless of what academic 'doctors of islam' say, it is not overlooked by 'non academic' muslims of the middle east and maghreb that Kemalist soldiers fought and died under the flag of the Crescent and Star to the cry of the Takbir Allāhu Akbar against invading Christian armies.

- A1/ There is already a wedge between Turks and other muslims. We here in France see it : Turks do not mix with Arabs. It won't get far if we present ourselves as their common opponent that is to say as Western Europeans. But Armenians are not Western Europeans, we are not. We know that we have been fooled by Eurocentrism not only for last 100 years but discriminated for centuries since the Middle Ages as belonging to "a heretic" Church.

- A2/ It doesn't seem so nowadays when we see important manifestations of kemalists who claim against an islamic society.

- A3/ Ofcourse there are several levels of communications and decisions :the highest level being the state level, that is to say on Realpolitik level : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik which is the rule for not only muslim countries. How many years did it take us to have the recognitions of 1915 by France, Belgium, Canada, etc. etc. ? And what about Rome ? We must not expect miracles from muslims countries knowing how "Christian" countries behaved for decades. Is'n it so ?

-B1/ As for the Blood Tax, this was indeed a disgraceful imposition on minorities at the time. Nevertheless there may be a valid proposition that this tax granted special concesstions to Christians and j.ws allowing them to maintain their ethnic identities, practise their religions, languages, customs, traditions, exemptions from military conscription (not generally available to muslims of the empire).

-B2/ It may be argued that if it not were for the blood tax many more armenians would have been assimilated into the muslim identity.

- B1/ Already with muslim Arab Caliphate, possibilites of allowing Christian minorities to maintain their ethnic identities, practise their religions, languages, customs, traditions, etc existed. These facts were not "special concessions" by the ruling class but this was in islam's dogma.

We have to remark that Armenia under Caliphate rule, was the only Christian country still to have an army : the Armenian Cavalry which was protecting Caliphate north frontier against the Turkish-Khazars.

I have to add an important symbol : the Caliphe gave the crown to the Bagradit prince and allowed him to bear the title of king. That is to say : this is not only a political gesture, but also a very important symbolic statement. Armenia did not belong to islam (dar al islam), OK we know it, but also it did not belong to "Dar al Harb" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_al-harb.

- B2/ Such supposition is unhistorical. Turks practiced devshirmeh, it is part of History, the contrary is fiction because it ignores the proper Turkish anthropological need of devshirmeh which has not existed among Persians or Arabs.

***

If we base our analyze on religion what would we say about the extermination of the native Carrabeean peoples by the Spaniards within half a century because of forced labour ? Are we going to charge Chistiannity ? And about also their brutal behaviour in Mexico and in Peru ? And I would like to add, if Spanish colonization of the Americas were so harsh, it is because they had a former experience with non-European people, that is to say with the Arabs. It was not because of their christian religion.

Also, are we going to accuse the Anglican Church to have accompanied Black Trade ? And what about the native Indians of the USA ? After all, was not christianity "nationalized" by these countries ?

Religion, ignorance or fanatism have been exploited. We know that. But there are deeper mechanisms such as anthropology, economics, sociology, diplomacy, etc... I think it is time for the Armenians to have a wider and deeper analyze other than refering constantly to religion.

Nil
#8872

[CRDA-France]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

On Friday, July 17 Archbishop Vicken Aykazian, Legate of the Diocese of the Armenian Church of America (Eastern), met with Carole Browner, at the White House, in his capacity as president of the National Council of Churches.

This meeting was part of an ongoing conversation between various American religious leaders...

http://www.reporter.am/go/article/2009-07-23-archbishop-aykazian-meets-with-president-obama-s-assistant-for-energy-and-climate-change

DO I MISUNDERSTAND : THERE WERE NO MUSLIMS IN THIS INTER-RELIGIOUS MEETING ?

- 1/ Were they invited or not ?
- 2/ Or there were invited and they did not show up.

Please get informed. It is important : http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...araboislam.htm

Nil (Paris)

http://www.globalarmenianheritage-adic.fr/fr/breligion/islam/1dialogue_chretien_nonhay.htm

#9138

[CRDA-France]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

Have you heard about Photographer Alexandra Avakian's ? There is an exhibition of her photos in the south of France in a convent of Perpignan, not far from the Spanish border on the Mediterranean side :

http://www.mairie-perpignan.fr/index.php?np=200

and here is the article published from a French newspaper (Midi Libre) : http://www.midilibre.com/articles/20...me-909118.php5

This Armenian lady seems to be a high professional American journalist photographer : http://photography.nationalgeographi...a-avakian.html

It is important to let muslim feminim associations know her : http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/...dowsofthesoul/

Nil (Paris)

http://www.globalarmenianheritage-adic.fr/fr/4diaspora/3mondial/monde_usa_araboislam.htm

#9378

[CRDA-France]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

A new Armenian site from the Middle East in Arabic : http://aztagarabic.com/

There is already this one from the United Arab Emirates : http://www.azad-hye.org/ . Thanks to automatic translation : http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en I have created this tool-page : http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...1azadhye00.htm

I shall do the same for http://aztagarabic.com/ . It is important to make the Arabs and the Muslims of the diaspora informed.

Nil
#9498

[CRDA-France]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

I have a fantasy : to broadcast Historical and Cultural Relations Armenians and Arabs : http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...omescannes.htm from "Burj Dubai Tower" : http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/1509284/...0-%20Music.pps

Anyway, let us come back to actual (small) reality : Armenians in Bilad al-Sham: between integration and marginalization (10th century - 15th century)
الأرمن في بلاد الشام بين الاندماج والتهميش)القرن العاشر- القرن الخامس عشر

http://www.ifporient.org/node/447

Best regards from Paris. Take care. Nil

http://www.globalarmenianheritage-adic.fr/index.htm

#9603

[CRDA-France]

Re: It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recogni

The Front Page of a French-Muslim Magazine on Charles Aznavour : http://www.globalarmenianheritage-ad...c_aznavour.jpg

"France and I, we have adopted each other"

Nil (Paris)

http://www.globalarmenianheritage-adic.fr/fr/breligion/islam/1dialogue_france.htm

#9925