It Is Time To Contact (Non-Turkish) Muslim Associations For 1915 Genocide Recognition

[CRDA-France]

Last April 24, a British Muslim Association MPACUK "The Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK" recognized the Armenian Genocide of 1915 :

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/breligion/islam/4uk2007d.htm

An American Muslim association The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), had also recognized in 2003 :

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/breligion/islam/4usa.htm

Do you have more news about the Recognition from this American Muslim Association?

Anyway, it is time to contact Muslim Associations of Europe and America. I remind you that 1915 Genocide was due to ethnic cleansing to reach the Azeris in order to build a big empire because of pantouranism ideology with the help of Germany :

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=6575927557266281256&q=armenian+genocide+duration%3Along

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/6histoire/a_d/20_allemagne_1915.htm

The base of this genocide has no thing to do with islam. That's why His Holyness Aram I appealed to Islam and to Muslim countries to recognize the Genocide :

http://www.crda-france.org/0ab/x9_aram1appels.htm

The best introduction to these Muslim Associations is to make them know that Armenians had constructive cultural and historical relations with the Arabs :

http://www.crda-france.org/0ab/6_0home.htm

http://www.crda-france.org/0ab/9_0home.htm

http://www.crda-france.org/0ab/a_0home.htm

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/6histoire/par_pays/arabes.htm

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/4diaspora/3mondial/monde_arabe.htm

For Persia and Muslim Historical India (several pages) :

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/4diaspora/3mondial/monde_iran0.htm

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/6histoire/par_pays/inde.htm

And also the Armenian Church is very active in the Islam-Christian Dialogue :

http://www.crda-france.org/0ab/b_0home.htm

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/breligion/islam/0home1hay.htm

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/breligion/islam/1dialogue_chretien_hay.htm

So we can have no complex to contact any Muslim Associations of the USA, Latin America, Canada and Europe. We can explain them how the Turks also behaved againt islam.

Here is the testimony of Faiez el-Ghossein in French (Cairo 1917) but you can certainly find it in the English edition (New York 1918) :
1/ "C’est un crime que désapprouve l’humanité, l’islam et tous les musulmans ; mais ceux qui ignorent la vérité ne manqueront pas d’en jeter la responsabilité sur le fanatisme religieux." (page 52)
2/ "Admettons pour un moment, que les hommes aient mérité le sort qui leur a été fait ; de quel crime peut-on accuser les femmes et les enfants innocents ? Et de quel châtiment ne mérite-t-il pas celui qui a tué sans raison ou qui a brûlé des êtres inoffensifs ?

Certes l’islam doit se disculper des fautes dont on pourrait l’incriminer, car si l’Europe n’est pas mise au courant de ces évènements, elle les considérera comme une tâche ineffaçable dans l’histoire de l’Islam.

Or, il ressort des versets et des citations que nous avons reproduits que les agissements du gouvernement turc sont contraires aux dogmes de la religion. Et un gouvernement qui se dit protecteur de l’Islam et qui détient le khalifat ne peut agir contrairement aux préceptes de la Charia, et en le faisant, il cesse d’être un gouvernement musulman et n’a plus aucun droit à ses prérogatives."
Les musulmans doivent donc renier un pareil gouvernement qui foule aux pieds les versets du Coran et les hadiths du Prophète en tuant des innocents, sinon ils seraient considérés comme ayant trempé dans ce crime qui n’a pas de précédent dans l’histoire." (pages 56-57)

http://www.crda-france.org/0ab/x9_faiezelghocein.htm

Nil Agopoff

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/breligion/islam/0_1915.htm

http://www.ancme.org/index.aspx

[Steph]

[QUOTE=CRDA-France;24649]Last April 24, a British Muslim Association MPACUK "The Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK" recognized the Armenian Genocide of 1915 :

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/breligion/islam/4uk2007d.htm

I would actually dispute that MPACUK has recognised the Genocide.
I have numerous emails from their membership, mainly Kurdish, which indicate a strong stance towards the historical (hysterical) turkish position.

[Steph]

Original Message -----
From: Eilian Williams
To: Nor Serount UK
Cc:
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:52 AM
Subject: They have had quite a negative reaction from the fanatics

MPACUK on The Armenian genocide Print E-mail
Tuesday, 24 April 2007

mpaclogo.jpgDear Eilian,

I apologise for the delay in responding to you, however before MPACUK committed to making a statement on the Armenian Holocaust, I needed to ensure that I had done some research. To date, the terms that can be argued or wordsmithed are genocide, crime against humanity, ethnic cleansing and Holocaust - MPACUK will not be drawn into a debate about semantics. What happened to the Armenians was all of the above.

I am sorry that I missed the Memorial Day. Infact I would like to clarify that statement and say ‘our’ memorial day as the horrific genocide that was inflicted on the Armenian is a crime against humanity, and as brothers in humanity, MPACUK extend the hand of condolence for your peoples' suffering. You deserve the recognition and the support of everyone including the Turkish people who have to accept that a crime was committed in their name against a vulnerable minority whose only sin was to be born Armenian in (what is now) Turkey.

Quite correctly you have noticed that the British Government have hedged and fudged their condemnation of the first Holocaust, and prevaricated due to ‘insufficient evidence’ as a smoke screen not to offend Turkey as a powerful member of Nato. However it is not in Turkey's interest to deny its past, and neither is it in the interest of justice to put the onus of proof on the victims. Historians are prone to be political animals, however History has a compelling force of making the truth known, warts and all.

Without ruining the tone of the email, MPACUK does not accept that this was a Muslim crime, or a crime done in the name of Islam. It was done by evil, sadistic human beings who unfortunately transcend religion, race, sexuality and even humanity.

I hope this email is clear and unambiguous and reflects MPACUK's position on the tragic fate of so many Armenians.

Regards

Zulfi Bukhari
CEO MPACUK
Dear Zulfi Bukhari

We welcome the statement made by MPACUK with regards the Armenian genocide which you have e-mailed to Eileen Williams.

As you rightly say, the Armenian genocide was done by evil, sadistic human beings which transcends religion, race, sexuality and even humanity.

Your clear and unambiguous position is a credit to your organisation and the whole Muslim community for which we are grateful.

Yours in Solidarity

Misak Ohanian
CEO
Comments:

ROB:
There was no armenian holocaust that was carried out with the intent to wipe armenians from the face of the earth,propaganda is nice and cheap but reality is diffrent.
when turkey was under attack by the british-new zealanders-australians and russians it was fighting a war of survival,the armenains who had lived under turkish rule for 500 years were enticed to committ treason and rebellion against turkey as according to the british and russians who informed the armenians now is your chance to strike and gain freedom and more lands for your armenian state.
the turkish army was attacked from the rear by these traitors in response patriots sided with the army to fight the attackers and the traitors within,in the ensuing chaos around 400,000 armenians-turks and kurds wee killed,it is quite rich for armenians to claim innocence but they were traitors who had allied themselves with foreign powers attacking turkey and carried out masscares of kurds and turks and when the outside threat was defeated, the turkish state wanted to deal with these traitors but knowing what they had done they left in large numbers to go to armenia.
if you want to see the real genocide it is happening in front of your faces in iraq and chehcnya yet nothing is being done about it.
if you want to know what real holocausts are check the history books and it will show you hundreds of diffent races of native americans were wiped out in a systematic method,were womens stomachs were cut open and babies killed and their heads taken,as this was the method used to pay the killers,the more heads you bought the more you got paid.
if Mr.Bukahris knowledge of history is weak he should check the real history not the one written by people who have a axe to grind,what happend in turkey was classic divide and conquer but the turks were upto the job to defend their homeland.
as regards religion kamal attaturk was secular extremist who banned azan-arabic language and the praying in arabic so even if they tried to blame this on muslims it does not hold water,as armenians had lived under muslim rule for 500 years,so why would they try to kill them when they were fighting a war of survival against outside attackers.
lets talk about holocausts and genocides,the british carried out genocide agaisnt he african people in which tens of millions were enslaved or murdered,around 29 million indians were massacard to starved to death during the occupation of india,this information i have gained from british writers on history,the european holocaust were more than a hundred million natives americans were exterminated.
the french genocide in algeria were around 3 million people were exterminated-the russian genocide were more than 2 million afghans were exterminated-the russian genocide against the chechens were 40 per cent of the chechens have been exterminated-the rwandan genocide-the bosnian genocide-the ukranian genocide,the ongoing genocide in iraq were to date 2.5 million iraqis have been exterminated.
the list goes on and on the day all of these holocausts and genocides are rememebered and enshrined in law that anyone denying these crimes will be punished, should be the day mpac and others should agree to attend special memorials for all the victims.
not just the chosen ones who happen to hail from the same area of the caucases by which i mean khazar ashkenazi jews and armenians.
2007-04-24 18:05:07 Report This Comment

RSD:
The "First Holocaust" against the Armenians was carried out by the Ottoman Imperial Army and various militas from various ethnic groups. The officers and troops involved were not exclusively ethnic Turks, but drawn from across the Ottoman Empire. Hajj Amin El Husseini, former Mufti of Jerusalem, is a notable example of non-Turkish officers. (He as other officers and politicians eluded punishment for their crimes.)
The Armenians as Christians became an object of hatred as non-Muslims who appeared disloyal to the Muslim Ottoman Empire in seeking independence and a separate state. There is some truth that the Armenians had allowed themselves to become pawns in a territorial games driven by the Russians to break up the Ottoman Empire and seize lands from it. The same occurred in the Balkans and elsewhere, and this was the driving force for the British to urge the Ottomans to implement Tanzimat in the early to mid 19th century.
While it is the responsibility and duty of the present Turkish state to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, it is dishonest of others in the region to deny their own involvement. It is also dishonest to fail to mention that the Turkish goverment did attempt in 1919 to try the leaders of CUP party who were responsible, and many were found guilty and sentenced to death in absentia. However in the chaos of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the post-WW1 era and the invasion of Turkey by Greece it is not entirely surprising that their efforts were unsuccessful.
The genocide of the Armenians and the failure of the world to remember it or take action was used by Hitler in his justification for the proposals to annihilate the Jews across the areas controlled by Germany during WW2. Sadly some political figures in the Middle East did not learn from the Armenian genocide and reject racist and sectarian hatred, and instead allied themselves and emulated the Nazi party, as is the case for the Baath Party and the Lebanese Kataab.
2007-04-25 09:07:49 Report This Comment

Osman Ghzai:
The above a a load of rubbish - the Armenian genocide is nothing but propaganda. The Armenians sided with the Russian, this is a fact you cannot compare this to the jewish holocaust

The Armenian issue is supoorted by those who are anti-turkish and anti-muslim, just look at France, it is one of the biggest supporters of this issue, it also played a crucial role in destroying the Ottoman empire.

Also take a look at what the Armenian's are doing to Azerbeijan - is this not genocide?

They have destoyed entire villages, burnt mosques and have split the country in two.

Why doesn't MPACUK condemn this.

You should obtain all the facts before you post stories on your site
2007-04-25 15:24:03 Report This Comment

Abdullah:
What has the Armenian issue got to do with MPACUK and the Muslim community in Britain today?
2007-04-25 15:27:00 Report This Comment

ROB:
what is the matter mpac my viewpoint has not been put on the comments.
as i mentioned before it is wise to check historical facts instead of going along with propaganda.
repeating a lie over and over again does not make it the truth and it would be better if all concerned got two sides of the arguemnt.
2007-04-25 16:44:43 Report This Comment

James:
What a silly debate! Could those who either say there was an Armenian genocide and those who are against cite sources to bring some maturity to this discussion please?
2007-04-26 05:29:18 Report This Comment

RSD:
Some corrections are needed to the comments made.
1st the Ottoman Committee for Unity & Progress (CUP) party did expound the idea of genocide in public and private statements. However this did not develop into the same policies as the Nazis.
2nd the Jewish victims of the WW2 Holocaust were not limited to Khazari Ashkenazi Jews but included Sephardi, Mizrachi and Karaite Jews.
3rd the Ottoman Empire had been under attack for the preceding progressively losing territory. The CUP was a reactionary party resistant to the modernisation which would have prevented the break-up of the Empire. CUP collapsed after WW1 and their leadership fled to avoid prosecution. Pro-CUP officials across the Empire led ethnic / sectarian violence e.g. Jaffa massacre 1915
2007-04-26 08:17:47 Report This Comment

A Brother:
This is a typical piece, highlighting the naivety of MPACUK, it’s constantly used by scrupulous individuals/ organisations for there own gains just for MPAC to get a platform for there haranguing.

Smarten up MPAC, it takes years to build up goodwill and seconds to lose it.
2007-04-26 11:28:29 Report This Comment

Osman Ghzai:
Christian powers don’t apologize for ethnic cleansing carried out during the century until 1923, during which years they rolled back the borders of the Ottoman Empire. American historian Justin McCarthy estimates 5 million Muslims were killed. In 1915, World War I was raging. Turkey was again under attack from Russia in the east and Britain and France in the west. The Armenian leadership openly sided with Turkey’s enemies, forming anti-Ottoman militias and demanding a state on Ottoman land.

See www.armenianreality.com for reference.
2007-04-26 12:52:45 Report This Comment

shah:
it seems that most of the comments here are critical hasnt acknowledged that some of the Armenian leadership where in league with the Russians?

I can't help but think, so what has got to do with the hundreds and thousands of innocent people who were killed? kill or trial the leaders.

and to take that parallel, if an extremist or a zionist agent pretending to be a muslim gloats at the death of 7/7 does that mean that british muslims can be targets of ethnic cleansing?

don't be so stupid, islam forbids the killing of innocents and there is no concept of collective guilt.

well done mpac.
2007-04-26 15:43:56 Report This Comment

ROB:
If we talk about here and now armenia has attacked and occupied 16 per cent of azerbaijans territory.
whent he armenians attacked they murdered thousands of azeri civilains and ethnically cleansed around 500,000 azeri men-women and children,who to this day are living in abject destitution.
it is about time people in asia-africa and americas started enacting laws which make the holocausts and genocides carried out aganist them by european christians a offence if some one tries to deny the facts.
its about time turkey took notice of genocides comitted by the french.
2007-04-26 16:28:24 Report This Comment

ROB:
Shah do bother to check the facts before calling other peoples views stupid.
the armenians were not killed for being armenians,they helped the enemies of turkey attack it,during the war turks-kurds and armenians died in massacres carried out in revenge and counter revenge,this is what happens in civil wars.
in 1914 there were 1.3 milions armenians within the borders of turkish rule,during the war and the following chaos around 400,000 people died,out of which 300,000 were armenians,in 1918 armenian propagandists claimed it was 600,000 later they said it was 800,000 followed by 1.2 miilion-1.5 million-2 milion and some even say 3 million,they can tell as many lies as they want but reality points in the opposite direction.
if you check the record of armenian massacares of azeris for the last 200 years you will see who has been carrying out genocide against whom,the number goes into the hundreds of thousands of azeris slaughtered,just a decade ago armenia attacked and killed thousands of azeris and ethnically cleansed 500,000 azeris who are living with the hope they will go back to their homes.
it seems the armenians assume that since for the last 60 years the israelis have used the victim label even though they have been killing palestinians in cold blood,they too can create the victim tag and go about killing and robbing other peoples lands.
2007-04-26 18:08:57 Report This Comment

Osma Ghazi:
Shah your statement is ignorant.

The Ottomans never went out to massacre civillians, they died in a mass movement of people froma a war zone to a safe zone, the Armenian population was actively involved in supporting the Russians and ethnic cleaning of Muslims, they were burning down villages etc. You can go to Turkey and see the mass graves for yourself. If the Ottomans wanted to kill the Armenians they would not wated 400 years.
2007-04-26 19:51:40 Report This Comment

Osman Ghazi:
Shah

As for comparing the Armenian treachery with the 7/7 attacks and any possible massacre of Muslims is also incorrect. Firstly 7/7 hasen't threatened the british empire, secondly the attacks according to the confession video of the attacker was retaliation to the Iraq war (which is a holocaust itself) it is not part of a Islamic invasion of Britain therfore comparing this to what the Armenian did and are STILL DOING to Azerbeijan is wrong.
2007-04-26 19:58:19 Report This Comment

Osman Ghazi:
The west, especially France, the Vatican State and the Orthodox church want to destroy Turkey, one of the main Muslim countries, they want to reconquista Istanbul and the Armenian issue is one methods they are using. Interestingly recently a Greek-Orthodox army training video was posted on Youtube showing a Greek unit shouting about conquering 'Constaninople' as part of their training - the Cyprus issue is another weapon used to destroy Turkey.
2007-04-26 20:14:44 Report This Comment

Osman Ghazi:
"islam forbids the killing of innocents and there is no concept of collective guilt."

This depends on the circumstances, sometimes exceptional circumstances require exceptional responses. Generally your statement is correct, but there is a precedent, the Prophet Muhammed(S) in Medina exiled three Jewish tribes on three different occasions when they betrayed the Muslims in war. But this is not the norm in Islam therefore I have to agree with your statement above.
2007-04-26 20:20:15 Report This Comment

RSD:
What no one yet has noted is that the Armenians have a very effective lobby in the EU and USA, as do groups such as Cuban, Greeks, Irish, and Jews. However none of the others have such broad effectiveness.
The violence directed towards the Armenians by various ethnic groups in the Ottoman Empire has to be understood in the context of WW1, Armenian violence against Turkomen and Kurdish communities and Russian activities. The violence was primarily inter-communal violence and very distinct from the industrial / mechanised violence of the WW2 Holocaust against Jews and Gypsies in which the Nazis sought to exterminate a people who had in many cases been very loyal German subjects (German Jews in WW1 were awarded 12 times per capita more Iron Crosses for bravery than ethnic Germans. Proportionately far more German Jews volunteered for the front than ethnic Germans) A large proportion of Polish Jews had been German citizens until the creation of Poland after WW1.
The influence that the expatriate Armenian community wields in the USA and EU has repeatedly achieved policy changes which countries like Israel could only dream about. Combine this with the prodigous Greek lobby and you can readily see why Turkey is so easily isolated and pilloried over this and other issues. One can then readily understand why considering the tangible contribution that Turkey provides and provided to international stability and the NATO alliance that Turkey expresses anger and frustration.
2007-04-26 20:35:26 Report This Comment

Donate Today to MPACUK

[Joseph]

Original Message -----
From: Eilian Williams
To: Nor Serount UK
Cc:
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:52 AM
Subject: They have had quite a negative reaction from the fanatics

MPACUK on The Armenian genocide Print E-mail
Tuesday, 24 April 2007

mpaclogo.jpgDear Eilian,

I apologise for the delay in responding to you, however before MPACUK committed to making a statement on the Armenian Holocaust, I needed to ensure that I had done some research. To date, the terms that can be argued or wordsmithed are genocide, crime against humanity, ethnic cleansing and Holocaust - MPACUK will not be drawn into a debate about semantics. What happened to the Armenians was all of the above.

I am sorry that I missed the Memorial Day. Infact I would like to clarify that statement and say ‘our’ memorial day as the horrific genocide that was inflicted on the Armenian is a crime against humanity, and as brothers in humanity, MPACUK extend the hand of condolence for your peoples' suffering. You deserve the recognition and the support of everyone including the Turkish people who have to accept that a crime was committed in their name against a vulnerable minority whose only sin was to be born Armenian in (what is now) Turkey.

Quite correctly you have noticed that the British Government have hedged and fudged their condemnation of the first Holocaust, and prevaricated due to ‘insufficient evidence’ as a smoke screen not to offend Turkey as a powerful member of Nato. However it is not in Turkey's interest to deny its past, and neither is it in the interest of justice to put the onus of proof on the victims. Historians are prone to be political animals, however History has a compelling force of making the truth known, warts and all.

Without ruining the tone of the email, MPACUK does not accept that this was a Muslim crime, or a crime done in the name of Islam. It was done by evil, sadistic human beings who unfortunately transcend religion, race, sexuality and even humanity.

I hope this email is clear and unambiguous and reflects MPACUK's position on the tragic fate of so many Armenians.

Regards

Zulfi Bukhari
CEO MPACUK
Dear Zulfi Bukhari

We welcome the statement made by MPACUK with regards the Armenian genocide which you have e-mailed to Eileen Williams.

As you rightly say, the Armenian genocide was done by evil, sadistic human beings which transcends religion, race, sexuality and even humanity.

Your clear and unambiguous position is a credit to your organisation and the whole Muslim community for which we are grateful.

Yours in Solidarity

Misak Ohanian
CEO
Comments:

ROB:
There was no armenian holocaust that was carried out with the intent to wipe armenians from the face of the earth,propaganda is nice and cheap but reality is diffrent.
when turkey was under attack by the british-new zealanders-australians and russians it was fighting a war of survival,the armenains who had lived under turkish rule for 500 years were enticed to committ treason and rebellion against turkey as according to the british and russians who informed the armenians now is your chance to strike and gain freedom and more lands for your armenian state.
the turkish army was attacked from the rear by these traitors in response patriots sided with the army to fight the attackers and the traitors within,in the ensuing chaos around 400,000 armenians-turks and kurds wee killed,it is quite rich for armenians to claim innocence but they were traitors who had allied themselves with foreign powers attacking turkey and carried out masscares of kurds and turks and when the outside threat was defeated, the turkish state wanted to deal with these traitors but knowing what they had done they left in large numbers to go to armenia.
if you want to see the real genocide it is happening in front of your faces in iraq and chehcnya yet nothing is being done about it.
if you want to know what real holocausts are check the history books and it will show you hundreds of diffent races of native americans were wiped out in a systematic method,were womens stomachs were cut open and babies killed and their heads taken,as this was the method used to pay the killers,the more heads you bought the more you got paid.
if Mr.Bukahris knowledge of history is weak he should check the real history not the one written by people who have a axe to grind,what happend in turkey was classic divide and conquer but the turks were upto the job to defend their homeland.
as regards religion kamal attaturk was secular extremist who banned azan-arabic language and the praying in arabic so even if they tried to blame this on muslims it does not hold water,as armenians had lived under muslim rule for 500 years,so why would they try to kill them when they were fighting a war of survival against outside attackers.
lets talk about holocausts and genocides,the british carried out genocide agaisnt he african people in which tens of millions were enslaved or murdered,around 29 million indians were massacard to starved to death during the occupation of india,this information i have gained from british writers on history,the european holocaust were more than a hundred million natives americans were exterminated.
the french genocide in algeria were around 3 million people were exterminated-the russian genocide were more than 2 million afghans were exterminated-the russian genocide against the chechens were 40 per cent of the chechens have been exterminated-the rwandan genocide-the bosnian genocide-the ukranian genocide,the ongoing genocide in iraq were to date 2.5 million iraqis have been exterminated.
the list goes on and on the day all of these holocausts and genocides are rememebered and enshrined in law that anyone denying these crimes will be punished, should be the day mpac and others should agree to attend special memorials for all the victims.
not just the chosen ones who happen to hail from the same area of the caucases by which i mean khazar ashkenazi jews and armenians.
2007-04-24 18:05:07 Report This Comment

RSD:
The "First Holocaust" against the Armenians was carried out by the Ottoman Imperial Army and various militas from various ethnic groups. The officers and troops involved were not exclusively ethnic Turks, but drawn from across the Ottoman Empire. Hajj Amin El Husseini, former Mufti of Jerusalem, is a notable example of non-Turkish officers. (He as other officers and politicians eluded punishment for their crimes.)
The Armenians as Christians became an object of hatred as non-Muslims who appeared disloyal to the Muslim Ottoman Empire in seeking independence and a separate state. There is some truth that the Armenians had allowed themselves to become pawns in a territorial games driven by the Russians to break up the Ottoman Empire and seize lands from it. The same occurred in the Balkans and elsewhere, and this was the driving force for the British to urge the Ottomans to implement Tanzimat in the early to mid 19th century.
While it is the responsibility and duty of the present Turkish state to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, it is dishonest of others in the region to deny their own involvement. It is also dishonest to fail to mention that the Turkish goverment did attempt in 1919 to try the leaders of CUP party who were responsible, and many were found guilty and sentenced to death in absentia. However in the chaos of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the post-WW1 era and the invasion of Turkey by Greece it is not entirely surprising that their efforts were unsuccessful.
The genocide of the Armenians and the failure of the world to remember it or take action was used by Hitler in his justification for the proposals to annihilate the Jews across the areas controlled by Germany during WW2. Sadly some political figures in the Middle East did not learn from the Armenian genocide and reject racist and sectarian hatred, and instead allied themselves and emulated the Nazi party, as is the case for the Baath Party and the Lebanese Kataab.
2007-04-25 09:07:49 Report This Comment

Osman Ghzai:
The above a a load of rubbish - the Armenian genocide is nothing but propaganda. The Armenians sided with the Russian, this is a fact you cannot compare this to the jewish holocaust

The Armenian issue is supoorted by those who are anti-turkish and anti-muslim, just look at France, it is one of the biggest supporters of this issue, it also played a crucial role in destroying the Ottoman empire.

Also take a look at what the Armenian's are doing to Azerbeijan - is this not genocide?

They have destoyed entire villages, burnt mosques and have split the country in two.

Why doesn't MPACUK condemn this.

You should obtain all the facts before you post stories on your site
2007-04-25 15:24:03 Report This Comment

Abdullah:
What has the Armenian issue got to do with MPACUK and the Muslim community in Britain today?
2007-04-25 15:27:00 Report This Comment

ROB:
what is the matter mpac my viewpoint has not been put on the comments.
as i mentioned before it is wise to check historical facts instead of going along with propaganda.
repeating a lie over and over again does not make it the truth and it would be better if all concerned got two sides of the arguemnt.
2007-04-25 16:44:43 Report This Comment

James:
What a silly debate! Could those who either say there was an Armenian genocide and those who are against cite sources to bring some maturity to this discussion please?
2007-04-26 05:29:18 Report This Comment

RSD:
Some corrections are needed to the comments made.
1st the Ottoman Committee for Unity & Progress (CUP) party did expound the idea of genocide in public and private statements. However this did not develop into the same policies as the Nazis.
2nd the Jewish victims of the WW2 Holocaust were not limited to Khazari Ashkenazi Jews but included Sephardi, Mizrachi and Karaite Jews.
3rd the Ottoman Empire had been under attack for the preceding progressively losing territory. The CUP was a reactionary party resistant to the modernisation which would have prevented the break-up of the Empire. CUP collapsed after WW1 and their leadership fled to avoid prosecution. Pro-CUP officials across the Empire led ethnic / sectarian violence e.g. Jaffa massacre 1915
2007-04-26 08:17:47 Report This Comment

A Brother:
This is a typical piece, highlighting the naivety of MPACUK, it’s constantly used by scrupulous individuals/ organisations for there own gains just for MPAC to get a platform for there haranguing.

Smarten up MPAC, it takes years to build up goodwill and seconds to lose it.
2007-04-26 11:28:29 Report This Comment

Osman Ghzai:
Christian powers don’t apologize for ethnic cleansing carried out during the century until 1923, during which years they rolled back the borders of the Ottoman Empire. American historian Justin McCarthy estimates 5 million Muslims were killed. In 1915, World War I was raging. Turkey was again under attack from Russia in the east and Britain and France in the west. The Armenian leadership openly sided with Turkey’s enemies, forming anti-Ottoman militias and demanding a state on Ottoman land.

See www.armenianreality.com for reference.
2007-04-26 12:52:45 Report This Comment

shah:
it seems that most of the comments here are critical hasnt acknowledged that some of the Armenian leadership where in league with the Russians?

I can't help but think, so what has got to do with the hundreds and thousands of innocent people who were killed? kill or trial the leaders.

and to take that parallel, if an extremist or a zionist agent pretending to be a muslim gloats at the death of 7/7 does that mean that british muslims can be targets of ethnic cleansing?

don't be so stupid, islam forbids the killing of innocents and there is no concept of collective guilt.

well done mpac.
2007-04-26 15:43:56 Report This Comment

ROB:
If we talk about here and now armenia has attacked and occupied 16 per cent of azerbaijans territory.
whent he armenians attacked they murdered thousands of azeri civilains and ethnically cleansed around 500,000 azeri men-women and children,who to this day are living in abject destitution.
it is about time people in asia-africa and americas started enacting laws which make the holocausts and genocides carried out aganist them by european christians a offence if some one tries to deny the facts.
its about time turkey took notice of genocides comitted by the french.
2007-04-26 16:28:24 Report This Comment

ROB:
Shah do bother to check the facts before calling other peoples views stupid.
the armenians were not killed for being armenians,they helped the enemies of turkey attack it,during the war turks-kurds and armenians died in massacres carried out in revenge and counter revenge,this is what happens in civil wars.
in 1914 there were 1.3 milions armenians within the borders of turkish rule,during the war and the following chaos around 400,000 people died,out of which 300,000 were armenians,in 1918 armenian propagandists claimed it was 600,000 later they said it was 800,000 followed by 1.2 miilion-1.5 million-2 milion and some even say 3 million,they can tell as many lies as they want but reality points in the opposite direction.
if you check the record of armenian massacares of azeris for the last 200 years you will see who has been carrying out genocide against whom,the number goes into the hundreds of thousands of azeris slaughtered,just a decade ago armenia attacked and killed thousands of azeris and ethnically cleansed 500,000 azeris who are living with the hope they will go back to their homes.
it seems the armenians assume that since for the last 60 years the israelis have used the victim label even though they have been killing palestinians in cold blood,they too can create the victim tag and go about killing and robbing other peoples lands.
2007-04-26 18:08:57 Report This Comment

Osma Ghazi:
Shah your statement is ignorant.

The Ottomans never went out to massacre civillians, they died in a mass movement of people froma a war zone to a safe zone, the Armenian population was actively involved in supporting the Russians and ethnic cleaning of Muslims, they were burning down villages etc. You can go to Turkey and see the mass graves for yourself. If the Ottomans wanted to kill the Armenians they would not wated 400 years.
2007-04-26 19:51:40 Report This Comment

Osman Ghazi:
Shah

As for comparing the Armenian treachery with the 7/7 attacks and any possible massacre of Muslims is also incorrect. Firstly 7/7 hasen't threatened the british empire, secondly the attacks according to the confession video of the attacker was retaliation to the Iraq war (which is a holocaust itself) it is not part of a Islamic invasion of Britain therfore comparing this to what the Armenian did and are STILL DOING to Azerbeijan is wrong.
2007-04-26 19:58:19 Report This Comment

Osman Ghazi:
The west, especially France, the Vatican State and the Orthodox church want to destroy Turkey, one of the main Muslim countries, they want to reconquista Istanbul and the Armenian issue is one methods they are using. Interestingly recently a Greek-Orthodox army training video was posted on Youtube showing a Greek unit shouting about conquering 'Constaninople' as part of their training - the Cyprus issue is another weapon used to destroy Turkey.
2007-04-26 20:14:44 Report This Comment

Osman Ghazi:
"islam forbids the killing of innocents and there is no concept of collective guilt."

This depends on the circumstances, sometimes exceptional circumstances require exceptional responses. Generally your statement is correct, but there is a precedent, the Prophet Muhammed(S) in Medina exiled three Jewish tribes on three different occasions when they betrayed the Muslims in war. But this is not the norm in Islam therefore I have to agree with your statement above.
2007-04-26 20:20:15 Report This Comment

RSD:
What no one yet has noted is that the Armenians have a very effective lobby in the EU and USA, as do groups such as Cuban, Greeks, Irish, and Jews. However none of the others have such broad effectiveness.
The violence directed towards the Armenians by various ethnic groups in the Ottoman Empire has to be understood in the context of WW1, Armenian violence against Turkomen and Kurdish communities and Russian activities. The violence was primarily inter-communal violence and very distinct from the industrial / mechanised violence of the WW2 Holocaust against Jews and Gypsies in which the Nazis sought to exterminate a people who had in many cases been very loyal German subjects (German Jews in WW1 were awarded 12 times per capita more Iron Crosses for bravery than ethnic Germans. Proportionately far more German Jews volunteered for the front than ethnic Germans) A large proportion of Polish Jews had been German citizens until the creation of Poland after WW1.
The influence that the expatriate Armenian community wields in the USA and EU has repeatedly achieved policy changes which countries like Israel could only dream about. Combine this with the prodigous Greek lobby and you can readily see why Turkey is so easily isolated and pilloried over this and other issues. One can then readily understand why considering the tangible contribution that Turkey provides and provided to international stability and the NATO alliance that Turkey expresses anger and frustration.
2007-04-26 20:35:26 Report This Comment

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Thanks for the info Steph. Not to be disrespectful to Muslim groups but right now I don't see how they can help us and their views seem to change like the wind. The Genocide is a moral issue and it should not matter whether one is an Armenian, Tutsi, Bosnian Muslim, etc, it is not a relgious issue and many of our contemporaries in Turkey and the rest of the ME fail to realize this.

In general, Armenians have mutually positive relations with Arabs and Persians and I hope it continues but with the coming war that may very well change. In the Middle East and in Islamic societies, in which many Armenians miraculously survive, we will always be "the other" and being Christian will once again make Armenians targets. People in seemingly friendly countries will scapegoat us for our faith and they will side with Turks solely because they are Muslim and because they are angry at the US, UK, Russia, etc. In the M.E. there is only the zero-sum game and a sort of machismo which means never admitting guilt, never being self-critical, and never saying you're sorry.

[CRDA-France]

Not to be disrespectful to Muslim groups but right now I don't see how they can help us and their views seem to change like the wind.
...
In general, Armenians have mutually positive relations with Arabs and Persians and I hope it continues but with the coming war that may very well change. In the Middle East and in Islamic societies, in which many Armenians miraculously survive, we will always be "the other" and being Christian will once again make Armenians targets. People in seemingly friendly countries will scapegoat us for our faith and the will side with Turks solely because they are Muslim only because they are angry at the US, UK, Russia, etc. In the M.E. there is only the zero-sum game and a sort of machismo which means never admitting guilt, never being self-critical, and never saying you're sorry.

It is reality, I agree. But there is a profound work to do in historiography communication. It will take time for a result (official or not), as it took to convince the Roman Catholic Church and the other churches, to make the European Governments to take a decision, etc., etc. How many decades did it take us to get to our present results with the West ?

There are also differents situations for Muslims :
-1/ the Muslims in the Muslims countries : Iran, Arab countries, Asiatic countries and Africa
-2/ the Muslims in Europe,
-3/ the Muslims in America.

It may happen that the President of an Muslim Association recognizes the Genocide : as it is the case for the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK. And we see thanks to Steph researches that inside this association, reality is different. OK. But we know that nothing is given, nothing is granted : as it is for Europeans or Americans. We know that we constantly have to work and be vigilent on this matter.

We also know that the best way to beat one's opponent, is to do on his own field or with his own terms.

Nil from CRDA in Paris

http://www.crda-france.org/0ab/0_0home.htm

PS - About the American Muslim association The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), which had recognized 1915 Genocide in 2003 :

http://www.crda-france.org/fr/breligion/islam/4usa.htm

Please, do you have more news about the Recognition from this American Muslim Association?
#66

[CRDA-France]

Besides the possibilities of contacting Muslims associations, knowing that
- there will be no immediate answer
- even there is a positive answer from the President, that doesn't mean the whole members agree to it

there is the possibility of make interventions in muslim forums. Which pesonnally I do in French Muslims forums, the Muslim community of France being of 90 % from Maghreb on 1 or 2 or 3 generations.

The different reactions are of several types :
- the Turkish deniars
- the dogmatic muslims who do not understand
- the fanatical muslims who mix every thing and are agressive
- the most silent majority which tries to understand and to get acquainted.

The Turkish deniars surf on social or post-colonial frustrations of our Franco-Maghrebians. Of course, they also exploit the muslim religious feelings. But these Turkish deniars are not numerous in these Muslim forums. They only know to bark and to lie.

Which is important is
- first to have an Encyclopedia of web pages on non-negative historical or present Armenian-Muslim relations
http://www.crda-france.org/0ab/6_0home.htm and others...
- then not to be islamophobe in order to have the possibility to debate on their field and inform them directely and sincerely
- to make Muslims in Europe or America aware that Armenians can be very good intermadiaires between them and the West. We know that the Jews and the Turks try to have that role and often or sometimes they succeed.

It is also important to make interventions in Muslim forums small step by small steps. They do not know much on Armenian history and they think we are "whites" : French, English post-colionalistes or Americans.

Nil
#84

[Joseph]

Besides the possibilities of contacting Muslims associations, knowing that
- there will be no immediate answer
- even there is a positive answer from the President, that doesn't mean the whole members agree to it

there is the possibility of make interventions in muslim forums. Which pesonnally I do in French Muslims forums, the Muslim community of France being of 90 % from Maghreb on 1 or 2 or 3 generations.

The different reactions are of several types :
- the Turkish deniars
- the dogmatic muslims who do not understand
- the fanatical muslims who mix every thing and are agressive
- the most silent majority which tries to understand and to get acquainted.

The Turkish deniars surf on social or post-colonial frustrations of our Franco-Maghrebians. Of course, they also exploit the muslim religious feelings. But these Turkish deniars are not numerous in these Muslim forums. They only know to bark and to lie.

Which is important is
- first to have an Encyclopedia of web pages on non-negative historical or present Armenian-Muslim relations
http://www.crda-france.org/0ab/6_0home.htm and others...
- then not to be islamophobe in order to have the possibility to debate on their field and inform them directely and sincerely
- to make Muslims in Europe or America aware that Armenians can be very good intermadiaires between them and the West. We know that the Jews and the Turks try to have that role and often or sometimes they succeed.

It is also important to make interventions in Muslim forums small step by small steps. They do not know much on Armenian history and they think we are "whites" : French, English post-colionalistes or Americans.

Nil
#84

Thanks. You've really put a lot of time into this and your post is very informative. I see the merits of what you have written but like Steph, part of me will always be skeptical of our Muslim counterparts. With the maddening events happening all over the world vis a vis Islam and Christianity I fear that the time for understadning is coming to a close.

[CRDA-France]

part of me will always be skeptical of our Muslim counterparts.

It is a matter of time. Hanperootyoun'e, g'yank e. Patience is life. The question is to know if our efforts will be useful and rewarded ? Wait and See.

What is important is to use islamic philosophy http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/
in order to neutralize muslim thinking based on islamic dogmatism. I am some times really very surprised how some Muslims can write thinks without nuances, without discern, mixing Arab Islam and Ottomanism all together in the same lot, etc.

It is also important to have knowledge in the Koran and the Sunna :
http://www.sattarsite.com/quran1.asp http://www.imaanstar.com/hadith.php

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Bayan/frn/

Thanks to search engine in these websites, we can find verses or hadiths appropriated to our debate. Lately there had been dispatched a strong text on the Unity and Union of Muslims among Muslim websites and forums.

Ok, why not ? But we have to know if this text with Coranic quotations includes (Turkish) deniars ? There must be a statment by the author of this text. Thanks to Google, we noticed that the author of this text belongs to a Turkish mosque for foreign workers in a small town in the East of France. We have much work to do.

Best regards from Paris. Nil
#139

[CRDA-France]

I have got that news just now. I have no www for references. We have to find them (?).

The Islamic Center of Buenos Aires was welcomed by the Armenian National Counsel of South America at its corporate building on San Juan Street. The members of these two institutions have shared a diner as frank camarades. They reaffirmed the existing friendly ties and the production of future commun projects.

Unfortunately I do not speak and read Spanish. The only page I have got is :

http://www.crda-france.org/0sp/home.htm

It is important at least to have :

- the www of the Islamic Center of Buenos Aires ?
- the www of the Armenian National Counsel of South America (on San Juan Street) ?

Best regards. Nil
#210

[Joseph]

I have got that news just now. I have no www for references. We have to find them (?).

The Islamic Center of Buenos Aires was welcomed by the Armenian National Counsel of South America at its corporate building on San Juan Street. The members of these two institutions have shared a diner as frank camarades. They reaffirmed the existing friendly ties and the production of future commun projects.

Unfortunately I do not speak and read Spanish. The only page I have got is :

http://www.crda-france.org/0sp/home.htm

It is important at least to have :

- the www of the Islamic Center of Buenos Aires ?
- the www of the Armenian National Counsel of South America (on San Juan Street) ?

Best regards. Nil
#210

Interesting. Thanks Nil. Having lived for a few years in Buenos Aires I can tell you that Argentines are very sympathetic to Armenians and Palestinians. But Carlos Menem did not do the Muslim community in Argentina any favors by his conduct.