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Open Letter to Beliefnet.com

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  • Open Letter to Beliefnet.com

    Beliefnet.com
    7/21/07
    [email protected]

    Dear Beliefnet

    As you know, posting as Sobeit9 I've been suspended from Beliefnet for the following reasons:

    You -- create posts which intefere with conversation and inhibit the
    ability of others to use and enjoy this website for its intended purposes

    -- post statements which insult other members

    -- post public complaints about host and/or staff actions
    This is not true. The reason for my suspension is because of attempting to create interest in the struggle for recognition of the Armenian Genocide. To put it bluntly, I believe I was suspended for reasons of racial and cultural bias against the Armenian people as a result of Beliefnet's adopting the official positions of Israel and Jewish groups within the United States as described in the following:

    Several American Jewish groups abandon their anti-genocide zeal when it comes to Turkey's massacre of Armenians.


    This is why it is troubling that some major Jewish organizations have lined up in support of Turkey's efforts to keep the U.S. Congress from recognizing the Armenian massacres as an act of genocide. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the American Jewish Committee (AJC), the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) and B'nai B'rith International recently conveyed a letter from the Turkish Jewish community opposing a resolution recognizing the genocide.

    The ADL and the JINSA also added their own statements of opposition, suggesting that the massacre of Armenians was a matter for historians, not legislators, to decide.

    The American Jewish community has insisted, and rightly so, that the U.S. Congress, the United Nations and other governmental bodies formally commemorate the Holocaust. Why should Jews not insist on the same in this case, especially given the widespread scholarly consensus that what happened to the Armenians from 1915 to 1923 was genocide? After all, the man who coined the term "genocide" to refer to the Holocaust — the Polish-Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin — cited the Armenian massacres as a precedent.
    The posts described as intolerable are:

    1. Mary Sara Still the same I see. You really should take some time off,
    go to Florida, and shill for Wexler. He can use Jews like you.
    Firstly she is not a host of that board and like everyone else a contributor.

    Secondly, in order to understand why I said what I said we have to include the context The entire thread can be found in the thread on this site called "Salute to 1.5"." A member wrote:

    wonderwarthog
    7/16/2007 12:06 AM 14 out of 16

    The Armenian genocide happened at the end of the Ottoman empire, ie. almost 100 years ago and not by the political predecessors of modern Turkey. It was performed in the name of a dead monarchy.

    Why make a fuzz about it today?

    Why stress the relationship of nations in building a harmonic future with issues of such distant past?

    Should French and Germans hate each other because they fought bitter wars?

    Are the tensions between China and Japan helpful?

    Should Cambodians refuse to reconciliate.

    Who keeps insisting on the relevance of long past actions only shows that he has no interest in working for a better and peaceful future.

    Specifically: Armenia today is an independent nation. It would be well advised to work on good relationship with its neighbours for its own benefit.

    Note: The historic recount of the Armenian genocide is done exclusively by Armenians from the Armenian diasporah. In fact it is very badly documented and Turks claim that Armenians are hugely exagerating the figures.

    Being as it is and considering all the above, I can fully understant that others want to put the story to rest. As with Israel, exiled Armenians don't necessarily work for the benefit of the nation of Armenia but rather for pepping up their own family history account.

    ******************

    MarySara722
    7/16/2007 11:26 PM 15 out of 16

    Thank you Wonder for that sound sense of reasoning about the Armenian genocide.

    It was long overdue.
    ***********************************


    Now in reply to mary Sara's respect for this "sound sense of reasoning," I said:

    "Mary Sara -- Still the same I see. You really should take some time
    off, go to Florida, and shill for Wexler. He can use Jews like you.
    CLICK"

    The click refers to http://www.graberforcongress.com/article.php?id=5

    Being that Graber "who is Jewish and the son of Holocaust survivors" defines Wexler as "an "embarrassment" to the Jewish community for opposing a resolution in the House that recognizes the deportation and killing of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire as genocide," Wexler would welcome the support of a Jew such as Mary Sara that openly accepts the ideas as expressed by Wander. To shill is not an insult. it is defined in dictionary.com as

    "a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty."
    Being that Wexler is running for office, if Mary Sara feels this way, she should consider shilling for Wexler. The only reason this could be considered insulting and as a reason for suspension is if someone is trying to hide something.

    The second post sited for my suspension is:

    "Christianity has acquired a unique quality on Beliefnet which separates
    it IMO from any other religion. It is without boundaries. On C to C
    debate board, a Christian is defined as anyone who calls themselves
    Christian. I refuse to deal with those over on JD after my horrific
    experience with the protected attitudes towards non-recognition of the Armenian Genocide. But if you are curious , go to JD or BD and ask if a Jew or
    Buddhist can be defined as anyone who calls themselves Jew or Buddhist
    and observe the reaction. The bottom line though is that Christianity
    has been so watered down that it has no distinct meaning anymore. Someone could assert themselves as Christian Monday, deny it on Tuesday, and assert it again on Wednesday depending upon which way the wind is
    blowing. If I said a doctor is anyone who calls himself a doctor would
    probably seem absurd. Yet somehow this seems logical with Christianity. Go
    figure For example, here is a web definition for "Christian" a religious
    person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a
    Christian denomination Here is a web definition of Buddhist: one who follows
    the teachings of Buddha The difference is of course between belief and
    action. It is actually only Christendom that is being defined here. A
    Christian like a Buddhist is one who follows the teachings of Christ. We
    cannot do it which is why there are so few Christians and so many
    pre-Christians or potential Christians. So to placate damaged egos we
    proclaim that a Christian is anyone who believes themselves a Christian."
    Kierkegaard drew the distinction between Christianity and Christendom that I refer to as being avoided. Father Sylvan goes as far as to say as quoted in Jacob Needleman's "Lost Christianity:

    "I admit to feeling a little uneasy speaking about Christianity in this way. I like Kierkegaard's distinction between Christendom and Christianity, the former meaning what man has made of the latter, But Christendom has wrong implications in an era where political rule throughout the Western world is so disassociated from religion. Practically speaking , of course, one doesn't really need this distinction between Christendom and Christianity, between broken Christianity and real Christianity. We only know broken Christianity, so why worry about a word for the real thing?"
    So the observations of Father Sylvan and kierkegaard if expressed on Beliefnet are so offensive and insulting as to be worthy of suspension.

    The third post sited is:

    "I see I was wrong. I initially felt that you were just a misguided
    person with a bit of an attitude normal for being defensive. Now I see
    that you have this same relish for the acceptance of the attempted
    elimination of that which you cannot comprehend namely the Armenian people
    that propagandists try to take advantage of for their own purposes.. A
    person rightly disturbed by the destruction of his family and heritage is
    called a troll. I know since I've been called the same. Yet if it is
    defending the "right" family it is considered noble. What is most
    repulsive here is the bias that is both revealed and tolerated. How long will
    this slight revision of your
    post #14 last on the Jewish Debate board?
    ..............................
    Later on I'd like to see the fuss this will make on JD. But as it
    concerns Armenians as written in #14, it is ,,,well....normal and "right
    thinking." celebrated by even the host Mary Sara 722 in post #15. It is
    truly amazing that the following quotation by Simone Weil can be
    appreciated by a minority yet scorned at by a majority bent on justifying the
    attempted destruction of what they don't understand whatever it may be.
    "Equality is the public recognition, effectively expressed in
    institutions and manners, of the principle that an equal degree of attention is
    due to the needs of all human beings." Simone Weil Of course for such
    observations, the most vile accusations have been directed at Simone on
    Beliefnet. I've read that Beliefnet is a learning experience which is
    true. What I've verified though is not so cutsey pooh and wonderful but
    rather a very callous truth about how humanity values life as a whole
    and its easy acceptance of selective morality. Scary! Now you know why
    dialogue boards are necessary. It avoids deletions natural for
    expressions of selective morality.
    This of course refers to my defense of the passion of THOTH-ENKI
    who as an Armenian has every right to question motives. To ask an Armenian to suppress the experience of religious bias aimed at them in the form of non recognition of the Armenian Genocide would be the same as asking a Jew on Beliefnet to suppress outrage at religious bias directed at denial of the Holocaust. It would never happen. Both sides are morally obligated to say it like it is and defend the importance of recognition. Why it seems known as it regards the Holocaust but not the Armenian Genocide. WHY you ask?? The answer is religious cultural bias created from political and social pressures.

    ***************************************

    For the fourth reason now we move to a response to Rabbi Stern who wrote an article on "The Blame Game." I wrote

    Dear Rabbi Stern, you wrote

    <i>Ultimately, the lesson of Tisha B'Av is the exact opposite. If you
    are going to play the blame game start with yourself; otherwise its
    better to not say anything at all.</i>


    From the point of view of this pre-Christian, I must respectfully shift
    the emphasis a bit. Since learning the attitudes of many Jews as to
    recognition or non-recognition of the Armenian Genocide, I am convinced
    that the lack of wisdom normal for fallen man has produced a collective
    psychological state that allows us to accept the results of hypocrisy
    as normal in the absence of wisdom. This for me is the real problem. Hypocrisy is not strictly an attribute of Judaism but it is within mankind.

    The Armenian question just vivifies it for Judaism. How is it possible
    to deny recognition of the Armenian Genocide when recognition of the
    Jewish Holocaust is so important for Judaism? The solution here begins
    with admitting our hypocrisy. St. Paul in Romans 7 describes this
    hypocrisy within himself as the "wretched man." Change doesn't begin with blame but with beginning to 'Know Thyself."

    *******************************8

    Now came a response to me with the threat to have me suspended.:

    Sobeit,
    Your unhealthy fixation on Jews and Armenians will bring you no good.
    Stop obsessing.
    Posted by: Clyde | July 19, 2007 4:25 PM

    Clyde
    When you stop being concerned for your heritage, the slaughter it endured, and experience the outrage against those who deny it, then I may abandon my struggle against those that oppose recognition of the Armenian Genocide including Jews.
    Posted by: Sobeit9 | July 19, 2007 5:21 PM

    You aren't even an Armenian.
    You go to every board and you harass Jews, and disrupt multiple conversations. This is against the ROC and you should be gone That is all I will say. I will make sure this is looked into.
    Posted by: Clyde | July 19, 2007 6:32 PM

    Notice that I do not care about my heritage in fact it is denied. My real purpose is asserted as harassing Jews and the belif of this slur is of course one of the guiding principle for my suspension. Can anyone else see how callous this is? I couldn't attack a Jew fighting for recognition of the Holocaust as not being a real Jew. Have we sunk so low that I must explain this?

    Dear reader of this open letter to Beliefnet, it is for this reason that I ask you to stand with me. Do not support those that advertise on Beliefnet or support those whose participation as a public person gives it stature.. We must see that websites especially these large sites like Beliefnet that attract known people with reputations to write columns etc., will have an influence on people who just don't know better and further gravitate towards selective morality..

    Moral people of whatever faith must stand together in the insistence that all genocides including the Armenian Genocide must be admitted for what they are. Acceptance of this type of suppression only assures the beginning of another genocide.

    Don't support Beliefnet until it changes its attitude and invites dialogue on the Armenian Genocide. Write to it at [email protected]

    Tell them how you are both disgusted and ashamed for them for promoting censorship of the facts of the Armenian Genocide and denial of open dialogue as "insulting." As moral people, it is the least we can do.

  • #2
    All of this is rather pointless unless you can cite the specific pages on their website where these posts occur. (Or where they had occured if the whole thread has been erased)

    Also, their stated goals are "inspration, spirituality, faith". Nothing there about truth! So why expect to find sweet smells in a sewer?
    Plenipotentiary meow!

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Belle

      The thread concerning the Armenian Genocide entiltled "Morality vs. Politics"was erased but I knew it it might happen so I copied it as it went along. It is posted here above on this page in the thread "Salute to 1.5"

      My response to Rabbi Stern was in his article:

      My friend and colleague, Rabbi Leon Morris of the Skirball Center of Adult Jewish Learning, asked me to sit on a panel Tuesday, July 24, (the day of Tisha B’Av), entitled “Because of Our Sins: Do We Blame Ourselves Too Much or Not Enough.” Prior to the Holocaust, the traditional response to Jewish tragedies was […]


      Any Rabbi should relish a question concerning the nature of the collective human condition and how it demonstrates itself as the hypocritical non recognition of the Armenian Genocide. Of course, evenn if he understandis it and is willing to say something, he is denied the opportunity through censorship of the question.

      "Also, their stated goals are "inspration, spirituality, faith". Nothing there about truth! So why expect to find sweet smells in a sewer?"

      Perhaps wishful ignorant thinking. So then it is my obligation to supply a little "truth" and inform others that it is being denied. I put the question to them as moral people if they want to support sites that behave in this way or stand against them.

      Like it or not, these sites have an influence on trusting people. They cannot and don't want to believe these things are happening. They don't believe that the U.S. would really deny recognition if not for ethical reasons.

      Unfortinately it is up to us to become a wake up call.

      Comment


      • #4
        Perhaps I should emphasise that I understand Beliefnet is a privately run site so has the right to call people insulting and get rid of them for commenting on Jewish hypocrisy as it relates to non recognition the Amenian Genocide.

        But we must realize that "insult" is a relative term. What insults one person doesn't have to insult another. As you know "insult is a powerful political technique for shoutiung down what the insulted does not want considered.

        So while Beliefnet has the RIGHT to define expressions of the truth pertaining to exposing non recognition of the Armenian Genocide as insulting, I have the moral OBLIGATION to make the exercise of their hypocrisy through censorship and suppression known and invite those that agree to stand against this site until it demonstrates the impartiality they claim to have.

        Comment


        • #5
          Nick - I am sorry that you are having such troubles over at Beliefnet - and of course I particularly sympathize with your struggle to expose hypocrisy concerning the Armenian Genocide. I may try to pick up where you left off in my own way - but I have to agree somewhat with BtC on this one as well as with your observations concerning the lack of true character of many of the people over there and I think there may be little hope for any real breackthrough or understanding. Again I feel bad for you - we don't agree on some fundemental things but this doesn't mean that I cannot understand that you are a person of intelligence and honest conviction and that I don't think you have much of value to offer. Its always a good thing to get people thinking and you certainly do this. However it turns out I wish you well (and would encourage you to be more more active on this site).

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi 1.5

            If I haven't posted enough proof about insult being one sided, consider the folloing concerning my opening post from




            Sobeit9
            3/30/2007 6:33 PM


            Hello All

            I can understand over sensitivity regarding the Jewish Holocaust but does this over sensitivity have to lead to such disregard for the Armenian Holocaust? The fact that it apparently has been the case is extremely disconcerting and only indicates a form of hypocrisy thay should bring shame. I wonder why it doesn't. Perhaps before complaining about what others do, you should consider if is right for you to do the same.

            From the following article CLICK HERE

            "The ending of Yair Auron's book generates the title. It is not so much, he concludes, the "banality of evil" (Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem, 1964) that accounts for the success of genocide, but the "banality of indifference." "The reaction of the multitudes, those located in the space between the immolator and the victims, is characterized by indifference, conformity, and opportunism. The Jews, too, in the circumstances of time and place, do not go beyond this banality, with several exceptions. In Israeli society, there are many people who would prefer not to know about the genocide of the Armenians and the genocide of the Gypsies...In Israeli historical consciousness, the Holocaust plays a central role--becoming increasingly stronger over the years. This consciousness stresses the singularity of the Holocaust. It contains, in my opinion, an extreme and almost utter focus on the Jews as victims, and a disregard--consciously or not, intentionally or not--of acts of genocide that have taken place in the twentieth century, among them the murder of the Armenians and the extermination of the Gypsies" (pp. 372-373)."
            Is this such a horrible question? Granted it is direct but the issue is important enough to warrant a direct question. I am also quoting a Jewish scholar. Now consider this reply from Clyde:


            clyde5001
            3/31/2007 10:26 PM 6 out of 77

            This is just another attempt by yet another Xtian to discount the seriousness of our Holocaust. We've seen it before and we'll see it again.
            Why isn't this considered insulting? Yair Auron is not discounting the Jewish Holocaust but stressing the importance of recogniton of the Armenian Genocide. This "Xtian" is even a slur against Christianity. Now consider this one


            zSaguaro
            3/31/2007 11:08 PM 12 out of 77

            Rashi is right on. And to add a little something...

            Every holocaust survivor (and most Jews) I've ever heard has spoken out against ANY kind of genocide. It shouldn't be allowed to happen, ever, and they beg the world to do something about it. And yet it still happens.

            I'm suspicious of how sobeit has worded this thread, baiting us into an argument designed to target us as somehow horrible, self-centered hypocritical people.

            Most of us don't discount genocide (there are exceptions I'm sure, as with any population). All genocides are serious. Ours was a wake-up call to the world that this can happen. People need to know because it keeps happening. If people are not reminded how serious it is, no one will care. Not only is it part of our history, but we care enough about others to keep reminding the world that this wasn't a one-time thing. We 'emphasize' this so others may live.

            This casts suspicion on me rather than Yair Auron. Why bring it up; why attack the Jews? I'm not attacking anyone but simply supporting the Jewish people like Yair Aurion that wish to recognize the Amenian Genocide and convince others to do so. The post speaks of being against genocide but no admission of the Armenian Genocide. Why is this not insulting?

            The thread goes on and on about where one finds facts. Remember now, the idea aisn't if the facts are correct but rather where you first read it. This is a [olitical way of avoiding the question of the opening post by allowing ad homs attacking sources. Why isn't this insulting?

            Now we get to Mary Sara's classic where she attacks me as well as some something that has nothing to do with the question of the opening post:

            I'll just post the first part rather than her ccriticism of someone who I don't know: The rest can be found on the link posted


            MarySara722
            4/1/2007 12:18 PM 50 out of 77

            Sobeit. You have crossed a line with your blatant senseless accusations.
            More than half a dozen Bnet members have directly told you that we Jews are against all types of “Holocausts” on any people whatsoever, and you have consistently ignored that fact, and yet still continue your false incriminations.
            It’s abhorrent how you come here with all your charges of “anti Armenian bias and intentional downplaying of the Armenian Holocaust” as well as the idiocy of your obsession with your verison of your Weilism, Platoism, Jacob Needlebaumism, your proselytizing with your so-called “Pre-christian” belief system, and so on.
            This is nothing but a blatant ad hom attack. Notice the reference to my false incriminations. Yet I am just quoting Yair Auron who is a respected Jewish scholar. The effort here is to deny the question by making me into a Jew hater but in reality all I am doing is quoting a very respected Jewish scholar. This is all standard political technique of shouting an uncomfortable question down so that it can be pushed under the rug and hidden away. Why isn't anay of this considered "insulting." Why?? Because it is considered justified. There is simply no other explanation. Beliefnet management allows this technique in this instance because it supports Israel's position. I am considered insulting because I support the Armenian position and those like Yair Auron who apparently have a sense of morality that transcends political considerations.

            The deck is stacked and it is Beliefnet's RIGHT to do so. However, I say again that it is essential for moral people be made aware of this stacked deck and be encouraged to stand against it including advertisers and contributing columnists. It is our OBLIGATION to do so.

            Don't forget, this whole issue may come before congress in the fall. There seems to be a lot of pressure on Beliefnet to maintain its stacked deck. It does influence the unwary. How about a little pressure in favor of balanced dialogue on this issue of genocide denial and non recognition of the Armenian Genocide that really affects the world as a whole.

            How much more proof do you want?

            Comment


            • #7
              I posted the Open Letter to Beliefnet on Religioustolerance.org and received this response.



              BaruchAn interesting if long post ...Wed Jul 25, 2007 13:1568.89.250.173

              that could do with extensive reorganization and editing ;-)

              I think, as a Jew, I can speak to these concerns. First of all, I suspect that much of the claims regarding genocide by the Young Turks regime (which was reactionary but modernizing) under the last Sultan of Turkey, during wartime (WW I) are largely justified ... though the specifics we will never be able to cross examine, since the Turks and Armenian survivors didn't keep the detailed records that were the obsession of the Germans during WW II.

              The question of recognition by Congress ... is a political act, not a religious one. Turkish-Americans who are opposed and Armenian-Americans who are supportive of such a declaration ... have obvious and understandable bias. I do not see this as a religious question at all, because I believe the Turks would have oppressed and massacred Armenians just for being a non-Turkish ethnic group, who had been troublesome for them for 900 years (and for other invaders of Anatolia before that) ... regardless of their religion. I cannot speak to the merits of the political question.

              If Jews oppose this recognition, even though they are not really parties to the case, that is a shame, and it is a political act, not a religious one. Just as the political question must involve the present status of European-Turkish and American-Turkish relations ... for many Jews everything circles around the question of modern Israel, and its relations, particularly with America. For the record, I am not a Zionist. I suspect the political motivation of such persons, is the notion that anything in America that detracts from the unique and long term oppression of the Jewish people, is a weakening of AIPAC, and its stranglehold on the US Federal government and other local US governments. Such Jews would not be willing to give a hand to support Native-American claims or African-American claims ... but such is the nature of support for modern Israel, it tends to bring out the worst in us.

              Then there are those who do not consider anything older than last year to be of any interest or relevance to today ... but that is a minority opinion in most of the world. While I am willing to let bygones be bygones, I would be foolish not to keep my eye open in the "metaphorical" presence of Gentiles, just in case.

              Obviously, the Beliefnet approach to keeping the peace between different Christians, is to avoid all distinction and consequent mud slinging that would result from taking a doctrinal stand on who a Christian is. This kind of political correctness would be necessary for any board trying to maintain an open door.

              Good luck wherever you try to witness to truth ... but don't expect anything but trouble from doing so ... our shibboleths are too precious to us.

              Shalom
              It amazes me that people do not see that politics is as it is because we are morally what we are. That is why all genocides INCLUDING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE must be admitted for what they are. It is absolutely necessary if we are ever able to outgrow them.

              So I responded:

              Hi Baruch

              For me to point out the ambiguity of the word "Christinity," is not a horrible offense. It only becomes so when management is taking advantage of it.

              You said: "If Jews oppose this recognition, even though they are not really parties to the case, that is a shame, and it is a political act, not a religious one. Just as the political question must involve the present status of European-Turkish and American-Turkish relations ..."

              I would have to disagree with you here. I do believe it is a moral lapse and morals is the domain of religion. Frankly, I believe if the moral understanding was as it should be in relation to the Torah, the political decisions would be different.

              Where are the respected Rabbis with the ability to communicate moral force when we need them? I understand the political motivations well but if politics were the only consideration pertaining to genocides, what would have been the result of the Jewish Holocaust? Where would we be without the influence of our moral people regardless in what faith they reside?

              "Good luck wherever you try to witness to truth ... but don't expect anything but trouble from doing so ... our shibboleths are too precious to us."

              I am well aware of the "trouble" involved with stressing the moral importance of recognition of the Armenian Genocide. This "trouble" is well demonstrated by Beliefnet's resistance as well as the articles posted.

              I'm not sure of how the shibboleth pertains to this question. Not being Jewish, I looked up the word and found this definition:



              "A shibboleth is a kind of linguistic password: A way of speaking (a pronunciation, or the use of a particular expression) that identifies one as a member of an 'in' group. The purpose of a shibboleth is exclusionary as much as inclusionary: A person whose way of speaking violates a shibboleth is identified as an outsider and thereby excluded by the group. (This phenomenon is part of the "Judge a book by its cover" tendency apparently embedded in human cognition, and the use of language to distinguish social groups)."

              I hope you don't mean that the word "Holocaust" as a part of the word "genocide" has a usage that defines a level of atrocity that excludes the results of the Armenian Genocide.

              If this is the case, I can see that our egotism will never allow us to outgrow the cyclical outbursts of genocide. Until we morally accept them all as the same level of atrocity, their meaning will sink to the level of politics and IMO, they will repeat as do all political happenings..
              If you feel like adding your 2 cents, by all means do so.

              Comment

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