Tweet
Beliefnet.com
7/21/07
[email protected]
Dear Beliefnet
As you know, posting as Sobeit9 I've been suspended from Beliefnet for the following reasons:
This is not true. The reason for my suspension is because of attempting to create interest in the struggle for recognition of the Armenian Genocide. To put it bluntly, I believe I was suspended for reasons of racial and cultural bias against the Armenian people as a result of Beliefnet's adopting the official positions of Israel and Jewish groups within the United States as described in the following:
The posts described as intolerable are:
Firstly she is not a host of that board and like everyone else a contributor.
Secondly, in order to understand why I said what I said we have to include the context The entire thread can be found in the thread on this site called "Salute to 1.5"." A member wrote:
***********************************
Now in reply to mary Sara's respect for this "sound sense of reasoning," I said:
"Mary Sara -- Still the same I see. You really should take some time
off, go to Florida, and shill for Wexler. He can use Jews like you.
CLICK"
The click refers to http://www.graberforcongress.com/article.php?id=5
Being that Graber "who is Jewish and the son of Holocaust survivors" defines Wexler as "an "embarrassment" to the Jewish community for opposing a resolution in the House that recognizes the deportation and killing of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire as genocide," Wexler would welcome the support of a Jew such as Mary Sara that openly accepts the ideas as expressed by Wander. To shill is not an insult. it is defined in dictionary.com as
Being that Wexler is running for office, if Mary Sara feels this way, she should consider shilling for Wexler. The only reason this could be considered insulting and as a reason for suspension is if someone is trying to hide something.
The second post sited for my suspension is:
Kierkegaard drew the distinction between Christianity and Christendom that I refer to as being avoided. Father Sylvan goes as far as to say as quoted in Jacob Needleman's "Lost Christianity:
So the observations of Father Sylvan and kierkegaard if expressed on Beliefnet are so offensive and insulting as to be worthy of suspension.
The third post sited is:
This of course refers to my defense of the passion of THOTH-ENKI
who as an Armenian has every right to question motives. To ask an Armenian to suppress the experience of religious bias aimed at them in the form of non recognition of the Armenian Genocide would be the same as asking a Jew on Beliefnet to suppress outrage at religious bias directed at denial of the Holocaust. It would never happen. Both sides are morally obligated to say it like it is and defend the importance of recognition. Why it seems known as it regards the Holocaust but not the Armenian Genocide. WHY you ask?? The answer is religious cultural bias created from political and social pressures.
***************************************
For the fourth reason now we move to a response to Rabbi Stern who wrote an article on "The Blame Game." I wrote
Notice that I do not care about my heritage in fact it is denied. My real purpose is asserted as harassing Jews and the belif of this slur is of course one of the guiding principle for my suspension. Can anyone else see how callous this is? I couldn't attack a Jew fighting for recognition of the Holocaust as not being a real Jew. Have we sunk so low that I must explain this?
Dear reader of this open letter to Beliefnet, it is for this reason that I ask you to stand with me. Do not support those that advertise on Beliefnet or support those whose participation as a public person gives it stature.. We must see that websites especially these large sites like Beliefnet that attract known people with reputations to write columns etc., will have an influence on people who just don't know better and further gravitate towards selective morality..
Moral people of whatever faith must stand together in the insistence that all genocides including the Armenian Genocide must be admitted for what they are. Acceptance of this type of suppression only assures the beginning of another genocide.
Don't support Beliefnet until it changes its attitude and invites dialogue on the Armenian Genocide. Write to it at [email protected]
Tell them how you are both disgusted and ashamed for them for promoting censorship of the facts of the Armenian Genocide and denial of open dialogue as "insulting." As moral people, it is the least we can do.
7/21/07
[email protected]
Dear Beliefnet
As you know, posting as Sobeit9 I've been suspended from Beliefnet for the following reasons:
You -- create posts which intefere with conversation and inhibit the
ability of others to use and enjoy this website for its intended purposes
-- post statements which insult other members
-- post public complaints about host and/or staff actions
ability of others to use and enjoy this website for its intended purposes
-- post statements which insult other members
-- post public complaints about host and/or staff actions
This is why it is troubling that some major Jewish organizations have lined up in support of Turkey's efforts to keep the U.S. Congress from recognizing the Armenian massacres as an act of genocide. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the American Jewish Committee (AJC), the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) and B'nai B'rith International recently conveyed a letter from the Turkish Jewish community opposing a resolution recognizing the genocide.
The ADL and the JINSA also added their own statements of opposition, suggesting that the massacre of Armenians was a matter for historians, not legislators, to decide.
The American Jewish community has insisted, and rightly so, that the U.S. Congress, the United Nations and other governmental bodies formally commemorate the Holocaust. Why should Jews not insist on the same in this case, especially given the widespread scholarly consensus that what happened to the Armenians from 1915 to 1923 was genocide? After all, the man who coined the term "genocide" to refer to the Holocaust — the Polish-Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin — cited the Armenian massacres as a precedent.
The ADL and the JINSA also added their own statements of opposition, suggesting that the massacre of Armenians was a matter for historians, not legislators, to decide.
The American Jewish community has insisted, and rightly so, that the U.S. Congress, the United Nations and other governmental bodies formally commemorate the Holocaust. Why should Jews not insist on the same in this case, especially given the widespread scholarly consensus that what happened to the Armenians from 1915 to 1923 was genocide? After all, the man who coined the term "genocide" to refer to the Holocaust — the Polish-Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin — cited the Armenian massacres as a precedent.
1. Mary Sara Still the same I see. You really should take some time off,
go to Florida, and shill for Wexler. He can use Jews like you.
go to Florida, and shill for Wexler. He can use Jews like you.
Secondly, in order to understand why I said what I said we have to include the context The entire thread can be found in the thread on this site called "Salute to 1.5"." A member wrote:
wonderwarthog
7/16/2007 12:06 AM 14 out of 16
The Armenian genocide happened at the end of the Ottoman empire, ie. almost 100 years ago and not by the political predecessors of modern Turkey. It was performed in the name of a dead monarchy.
Why make a fuzz about it today?
Why stress the relationship of nations in building a harmonic future with issues of such distant past?
Should French and Germans hate each other because they fought bitter wars?
Are the tensions between China and Japan helpful?
Should Cambodians refuse to reconciliate.
Who keeps insisting on the relevance of long past actions only shows that he has no interest in working for a better and peaceful future.
Specifically: Armenia today is an independent nation. It would be well advised to work on good relationship with its neighbours for its own benefit.
Note: The historic recount of the Armenian genocide is done exclusively by Armenians from the Armenian diasporah. In fact it is very badly documented and Turks claim that Armenians are hugely exagerating the figures.
Being as it is and considering all the above, I can fully understant that others want to put the story to rest. As with Israel, exiled Armenians don't necessarily work for the benefit of the nation of Armenia but rather for pepping up their own family history account.
******************
MarySara722
7/16/2007 11:26 PM 15 out of 16
Thank you Wonder for that sound sense of reasoning about the Armenian genocide.
It was long overdue.
7/16/2007 12:06 AM 14 out of 16
The Armenian genocide happened at the end of the Ottoman empire, ie. almost 100 years ago and not by the political predecessors of modern Turkey. It was performed in the name of a dead monarchy.
Why make a fuzz about it today?
Why stress the relationship of nations in building a harmonic future with issues of such distant past?
Should French and Germans hate each other because they fought bitter wars?
Are the tensions between China and Japan helpful?
Should Cambodians refuse to reconciliate.
Who keeps insisting on the relevance of long past actions only shows that he has no interest in working for a better and peaceful future.
Specifically: Armenia today is an independent nation. It would be well advised to work on good relationship with its neighbours for its own benefit.
Note: The historic recount of the Armenian genocide is done exclusively by Armenians from the Armenian diasporah. In fact it is very badly documented and Turks claim that Armenians are hugely exagerating the figures.
Being as it is and considering all the above, I can fully understant that others want to put the story to rest. As with Israel, exiled Armenians don't necessarily work for the benefit of the nation of Armenia but rather for pepping up their own family history account.
******************
MarySara722
7/16/2007 11:26 PM 15 out of 16
Thank you Wonder for that sound sense of reasoning about the Armenian genocide.
It was long overdue.
Now in reply to mary Sara's respect for this "sound sense of reasoning," I said:
"Mary Sara -- Still the same I see. You really should take some time
off, go to Florida, and shill for Wexler. He can use Jews like you.
CLICK"
The click refers to http://www.graberforcongress.com/article.php?id=5
Being that Graber "who is Jewish and the son of Holocaust survivors" defines Wexler as "an "embarrassment" to the Jewish community for opposing a resolution in the House that recognizes the deportation and killing of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire as genocide," Wexler would welcome the support of a Jew such as Mary Sara that openly accepts the ideas as expressed by Wander. To shill is not an insult. it is defined in dictionary.com as
"a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty."
The second post sited for my suspension is:
"Christianity has acquired a unique quality on Beliefnet which separates
it IMO from any other religion. It is without boundaries. On C to C
debate board, a Christian is defined as anyone who calls themselves
Christian. I refuse to deal with those over on JD after my horrific
experience with the protected attitudes towards non-recognition of the Armenian Genocide. But if you are curious , go to JD or BD and ask if a Jew or
Buddhist can be defined as anyone who calls themselves Jew or Buddhist
and observe the reaction. The bottom line though is that Christianity
has been so watered down that it has no distinct meaning anymore. Someone could assert themselves as Christian Monday, deny it on Tuesday, and assert it again on Wednesday depending upon which way the wind is
blowing. If I said a doctor is anyone who calls himself a doctor would
probably seem absurd. Yet somehow this seems logical with Christianity. Go
figure For example, here is a web definition for "Christian" a religious
person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a
Christian denomination Here is a web definition of Buddhist: one who follows
the teachings of Buddha The difference is of course between belief and
action. It is actually only Christendom that is being defined here. A
Christian like a Buddhist is one who follows the teachings of Christ. We
cannot do it which is why there are so few Christians and so many
pre-Christians or potential Christians. So to placate damaged egos we
proclaim that a Christian is anyone who believes themselves a Christian."
it IMO from any other religion. It is without boundaries. On C to C
debate board, a Christian is defined as anyone who calls themselves
Christian. I refuse to deal with those over on JD after my horrific
experience with the protected attitudes towards non-recognition of the Armenian Genocide. But if you are curious , go to JD or BD and ask if a Jew or
Buddhist can be defined as anyone who calls themselves Jew or Buddhist
and observe the reaction. The bottom line though is that Christianity
has been so watered down that it has no distinct meaning anymore. Someone could assert themselves as Christian Monday, deny it on Tuesday, and assert it again on Wednesday depending upon which way the wind is
blowing. If I said a doctor is anyone who calls himself a doctor would
probably seem absurd. Yet somehow this seems logical with Christianity. Go
figure For example, here is a web definition for "Christian" a religious
person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a
Christian denomination Here is a web definition of Buddhist: one who follows
the teachings of Buddha The difference is of course between belief and
action. It is actually only Christendom that is being defined here. A
Christian like a Buddhist is one who follows the teachings of Christ. We
cannot do it which is why there are so few Christians and so many
pre-Christians or potential Christians. So to placate damaged egos we
proclaim that a Christian is anyone who believes themselves a Christian."
"I admit to feeling a little uneasy speaking about Christianity in this way. I like Kierkegaard's distinction between Christendom and Christianity, the former meaning what man has made of the latter, But Christendom has wrong implications in an era where political rule throughout the Western world is so disassociated from religion. Practically speaking , of course, one doesn't really need this distinction between Christendom and Christianity, between broken Christianity and real Christianity. We only know broken Christianity, so why worry about a word for the real thing?"
The third post sited is:
"I see I was wrong. I initially felt that you were just a misguided
person with a bit of an attitude normal for being defensive. Now I see
that you have this same relish for the acceptance of the attempted
elimination of that which you cannot comprehend namely the Armenian people
that propagandists try to take advantage of for their own purposes.. A
person rightly disturbed by the destruction of his family and heritage is
called a troll. I know since I've been called the same. Yet if it is
defending the "right" family it is considered noble. What is most
repulsive here is the bias that is both revealed and tolerated. How long will
this slight revision of your
post #14 last on the Jewish Debate board?
..............................
Later on I'd like to see the fuss this will make on JD. But as it
concerns Armenians as written in #14, it is ,,,well....normal and "right
thinking." celebrated by even the host Mary Sara 722 in post #15. It is
truly amazing that the following quotation by Simone Weil can be
appreciated by a minority yet scorned at by a majority bent on justifying the
attempted destruction of what they don't understand whatever it may be.
"Equality is the public recognition, effectively expressed in
institutions and manners, of the principle that an equal degree of attention is
due to the needs of all human beings." Simone Weil Of course for such
observations, the most vile accusations have been directed at Simone on
Beliefnet. I've read that Beliefnet is a learning experience which is
true. What I've verified though is not so cutsey pooh and wonderful but
rather a very callous truth about how humanity values life as a whole
and its easy acceptance of selective morality. Scary! Now you know why
dialogue boards are necessary. It avoids deletions natural for
expressions of selective morality.
person with a bit of an attitude normal for being defensive. Now I see
that you have this same relish for the acceptance of the attempted
elimination of that which you cannot comprehend namely the Armenian people
that propagandists try to take advantage of for their own purposes.. A
person rightly disturbed by the destruction of his family and heritage is
called a troll. I know since I've been called the same. Yet if it is
defending the "right" family it is considered noble. What is most
repulsive here is the bias that is both revealed and tolerated. How long will
this slight revision of your
post #14 last on the Jewish Debate board?
..............................
Later on I'd like to see the fuss this will make on JD. But as it
concerns Armenians as written in #14, it is ,,,well....normal and "right
thinking." celebrated by even the host Mary Sara 722 in post #15. It is
truly amazing that the following quotation by Simone Weil can be
appreciated by a minority yet scorned at by a majority bent on justifying the
attempted destruction of what they don't understand whatever it may be.
"Equality is the public recognition, effectively expressed in
institutions and manners, of the principle that an equal degree of attention is
due to the needs of all human beings." Simone Weil Of course for such
observations, the most vile accusations have been directed at Simone on
Beliefnet. I've read that Beliefnet is a learning experience which is
true. What I've verified though is not so cutsey pooh and wonderful but
rather a very callous truth about how humanity values life as a whole
and its easy acceptance of selective morality. Scary! Now you know why
dialogue boards are necessary. It avoids deletions natural for
expressions of selective morality.
who as an Armenian has every right to question motives. To ask an Armenian to suppress the experience of religious bias aimed at them in the form of non recognition of the Armenian Genocide would be the same as asking a Jew on Beliefnet to suppress outrage at religious bias directed at denial of the Holocaust. It would never happen. Both sides are morally obligated to say it like it is and defend the importance of recognition. Why it seems known as it regards the Holocaust but not the Armenian Genocide. WHY you ask?? The answer is religious cultural bias created from political and social pressures.
***************************************
For the fourth reason now we move to a response to Rabbi Stern who wrote an article on "The Blame Game." I wrote
Dear Rabbi Stern, you wrote
<i>Ultimately, the lesson of Tisha B'Av is the exact opposite. If you
are going to play the blame game start with yourself; otherwise its
better to not say anything at all.</i>
From the point of view of this pre-Christian, I must respectfully shift
the emphasis a bit. Since learning the attitudes of many Jews as to
recognition or non-recognition of the Armenian Genocide, I am convinced
that the lack of wisdom normal for fallen man has produced a collective
psychological state that allows us to accept the results of hypocrisy
as normal in the absence of wisdom. This for me is the real problem. Hypocrisy is not strictly an attribute of Judaism but it is within mankind.
The Armenian question just vivifies it for Judaism. How is it possible
to deny recognition of the Armenian Genocide when recognition of the
Jewish Holocaust is so important for Judaism? The solution here begins
with admitting our hypocrisy. St. Paul in Romans 7 describes this
hypocrisy within himself as the "wretched man." Change doesn't begin with blame but with beginning to 'Know Thyself."
*******************************8
Now came a response to me with the threat to have me suspended.:
Sobeit,
Your unhealthy fixation on Jews and Armenians will bring you no good.
Stop obsessing.
Posted by: Clyde | July 19, 2007 4:25 PM
Clyde
When you stop being concerned for your heritage, the slaughter it endured, and experience the outrage against those who deny it, then I may abandon my struggle against those that oppose recognition of the Armenian Genocide including Jews.
Posted by: Sobeit9 | July 19, 2007 5:21 PM
You aren't even an Armenian.
You go to every board and you harass Jews, and disrupt multiple conversations. This is against the ROC and you should be gone That is all I will say. I will make sure this is looked into.
Posted by: Clyde | July 19, 2007 6:32 PM
<i>Ultimately, the lesson of Tisha B'Av is the exact opposite. If you
are going to play the blame game start with yourself; otherwise its
better to not say anything at all.</i>
From the point of view of this pre-Christian, I must respectfully shift
the emphasis a bit. Since learning the attitudes of many Jews as to
recognition or non-recognition of the Armenian Genocide, I am convinced
that the lack of wisdom normal for fallen man has produced a collective
psychological state that allows us to accept the results of hypocrisy
as normal in the absence of wisdom. This for me is the real problem. Hypocrisy is not strictly an attribute of Judaism but it is within mankind.
The Armenian question just vivifies it for Judaism. How is it possible
to deny recognition of the Armenian Genocide when recognition of the
Jewish Holocaust is so important for Judaism? The solution here begins
with admitting our hypocrisy. St. Paul in Romans 7 describes this
hypocrisy within himself as the "wretched man." Change doesn't begin with blame but with beginning to 'Know Thyself."
*******************************8
Now came a response to me with the threat to have me suspended.:
Sobeit,
Your unhealthy fixation on Jews and Armenians will bring you no good.
Stop obsessing.
Posted by: Clyde | July 19, 2007 4:25 PM
Clyde
When you stop being concerned for your heritage, the slaughter it endured, and experience the outrage against those who deny it, then I may abandon my struggle against those that oppose recognition of the Armenian Genocide including Jews.
Posted by: Sobeit9 | July 19, 2007 5:21 PM
You aren't even an Armenian.
You go to every board and you harass Jews, and disrupt multiple conversations. This is against the ROC and you should be gone That is all I will say. I will make sure this is looked into.
Posted by: Clyde | July 19, 2007 6:32 PM
Notice that I do not care about my heritage in fact it is denied. My real purpose is asserted as harassing Jews and the belif of this slur is of course one of the guiding principle for my suspension. Can anyone else see how callous this is? I couldn't attack a Jew fighting for recognition of the Holocaust as not being a real Jew. Have we sunk so low that I must explain this?
Dear reader of this open letter to Beliefnet, it is for this reason that I ask you to stand with me. Do not support those that advertise on Beliefnet or support those whose participation as a public person gives it stature.. We must see that websites especially these large sites like Beliefnet that attract known people with reputations to write columns etc., will have an influence on people who just don't know better and further gravitate towards selective morality..
Moral people of whatever faith must stand together in the insistence that all genocides including the Armenian Genocide must be admitted for what they are. Acceptance of this type of suppression only assures the beginning of another genocide.
Don't support Beliefnet until it changes its attitude and invites dialogue on the Armenian Genocide. Write to it at [email protected]
Tell them how you are both disgusted and ashamed for them for promoting censorship of the facts of the Armenian Genocide and denial of open dialogue as "insulting." As moral people, it is the least we can do.
Comment