Let's rewind the movie

[Joseph]

and now lets see what armenins doing?

diaspora armenians are doing their best to harm turkey, by many methods. even terrorizm has been tried for many years by asala terrorists, killing 50 or more turkish diplomats. they try to harm turkeys turizm sector. they try to turkey be denied by eu, they try to make it crime the denial of genocide in every country of the world, they support kurdish rebells in turkey etc.

and individually when they meet a turk , great majority act very bad and insult them.

armenian state also cant solve karabağ ıssue, demands lands from turkey.



in my opinion ,untill recent years,this kind of hostile style was needed to establish the armenian genocide to be known by all world.

but after reaching a point ,after some more damages,armenians will be unable to harm turkey any more, also,world people will loose their interest in armenian issue.

than,this time armenians will loose the chance for peace for ever.

this dog fight ,if goes on for ever ,will keep both countries backward and stop them to advance faster, not only in economy but also in human rights issues.

also, diaspora armenians as a result of reaching the final point and lost public interest, will start loosing their armenian identities and assimilate in the countries they live in.

we have to solve this problem for the benefit of everybody. this is a meaningless burden on us.

yes, turkey must apologise, but armenians must also be ready to accept the apaology,taking some hard steps back.

lal

Lal,


We live in a very non-utopian reality governed unfortunately by real-politik. Being a small people with very little intrinsic economic or strategic value to the powers that be (US, EU, etc) Armenians (especially in Armenia) can ill-afford to trust that Turkey will honor our reciprocate if Armenians deviate from our seemingly hardline position.

Armenians could do just as you say. We could drop our legitimate cause for genocide recognition or perhaps change our tactics but let me ask you, has Turkey ever done anything that would convince you that they would deviate from their positions?

Lal, if Turkey was governed by people such as yourself, we could create this new reality, but it is not and probably never will be baring a violent revolution and a complete overhaul of the current majority Turkish view.

[Joseph]

My informant also told me of the contempt that was given to him, when he arrived in America in the 50s, by those Armenians who had left Turkey as refugees in the WW1 or immediate post-WW1 period, or their descendants. These American-Armenians considered any Armenians who stayed in Turkey after that period to be sub-human, little better than the Turks they lived amongst. That (as well as the need to create a simplisitic sound-bite version of the history of the Armenian genocide) is probably the basic reason why Armenians have tended to ignore this period: most don't consider its victims or its survivors to be worthy of recognition.

My repsonse is full of generalizations and is of course only from my from of reference but I want to preface what I write that I think you brought up an interesting subject (although in your usual deragatory manner) and one of which I have written about before.

There has always been somewhat of a split/disconnect between Armenians of Istanbul and Armenians of "Anatolia".

For centuries, Armenians in Istanbul were very ignorant of what their brothers and sisters were going through in the interior, their struggles, injustices suffered, etc. There were difference in everyday life too; economic and political standing between the two groups with regards to the Empire.

After WWI and the Genocide, it was wrongly perceived by many diaspora Armenians and survivors that the Armenians of Istanbul escaped the fate of their bretheren. This is not entirely true, as thousands of Istanbul Armenians were indeed murdered but it can be said that many were able to escape the Genocide by remaing low-key and underground so to speak. It also helped that the foreign embassies and missions (even the Germans to a degree) made sure that Istanbul Armenians were relatively "safe". What many in the diaspora fail to realize is that at the time of the Genocide, quite a few Armenians slipped away and into Istanbul where some lived for a few more decades before emigrating to other diaspora communities.

As of today, very little of that antagonism exists. My church community in Washington, DC is very much comprised of recent arrivals (from the 1980's until today) from Istanbul and there is no apparent or obvious cliquishness between the parishoners.

[Steph]

No need to be confused. Its just years and generations of brainwashing thats telling you to see everything in black and white rendering you unable to see any grey (other than a grey-wolf) when a Turk is concerned.

Oh, hitite, I despair! I posted very brief details of friendship I have with a couple of turks only a few days ago. Granted my wife will hold no truck with turks at all, to her all turks are black not grey.

[Steph]

what is confusing about my posts?
how can ı make a denial propaganda ,after stating so clearly that turkey must admit its past crimes against armenians and accept this to be called a genocide no matter what the emerging risks of it or no matter armenians or armenias attititude about turks or azeris.

because ,only then my personal rights about every subject in this country can improve and ı can be able to have a more civilised,better ,safer and richer life.can you understand what ı mean?

when ı wrote ,ı feel like not belonging to any nation or religon, ı was serious. ı want to be a world person without religon,living and working in any place.

ı hate islam, but this dont mean that ı love christianity or anything else.
ı hate Turkeys extremely stubborn,militarist, nationalist and conservative and also islamist line , but this dont mean that ı like americas imperialist ,evangelistic, evil politics,
ı hate the denial of armenian genocide, but this dont mean that ı aprove extreme hostile attitude of diaspora armenians in general against turkey or not very clever line of republic of armenian state.

you see,this is not like being a fan of real madrid. all parts have a lots of wrongs ,though the major wrong is turks ,ı accept.

but if this problem is wanted to be solved than both sides must work on it.you come close to me,ı come closer to you. you give something ,ı give you something. this is the rule of nature.

if you insist on everything you want,than you get nothing.this is what both sides are doing today.

ı am no expert in anything. ı might well be wrong in everything. ı m only a simple turk. my only difference from the other people is that ı dont easly buy what state imposes on me or what crowds follow. so simple.

Lal

I'm starting to see the reality in your posts, perhaps the pain of your position.
Can you research on line more about the Genocide (this site is a good starting point), it may help you in your search for your goal. Unfortunately, a goal which will be very difficult to achieve but I wish you well in it's search. If anyone here can help, you've already enlisted quite a line of support and good for you.
I applaud you for your difference from "the other people" in your sceptism of state imposed information/beliefs.

[Joseph]

I'm starting to see the reality in your posts, perhaps the pain of your position.
Can you research on line more about the Genocide (this site is a good starting point), it may help you in your search for your goal. Unfortunately, a goal which will be very difficult to achieve but I wish you well in it's search. If anyone here can help, you've already enlisted quite a line of support and good for you.
I applaud you for your difference from "the other people" in your sceptism of state imposed information/beliefs.

I'll second that.

[Steph]

Its not the difference in emphasis, its the reason for the difference. Turks and Armenians definately do have more survival issues for sure, Armenians in Armenia even more so. This is one of the reasons they "need" eachother. I did not say anything different. I guess you just find the idea of an Armenian "needing" a Turk too much at odds with the image of the "all superior" Armenian that exists in your fantasy world.

But how cleverly you make it seem as if I said that Armenians in Armenia do not care much about the Genocide. Clearly you are not much different from the herd. You too have become a Turk

hitite, I find the idea of an Armenian needing a turk too much at odds with any images in my real world.
turks certainly don't get into my fantasy world which would be for a different type of site.

[Steph]

hitite, let's reverse the roles.

Imagine that you're Armenian living in Armenia,you cook from propane gas, your car is converted to run on propane, you save and conserve water to allow for the cut-offs, you can't rely on electricity. Every time you look from your window you see Masis (Ararat) but you can't walk on it's slopes.
How would you view turks, and of course....azeris ?

[phantom]

I think that this all stems from the fact that Armenians in this geography clearly have different needs when compared to the diaspora. The ones in Turkey and Armenia proper "need" to live with Turks and Turks with them. That is why they may not be giving A.G. recognition as much priority as the diaspora. The Diaspora on the other hand does not need to find a way to live in some sort of harmony with the Turk because they dont have to; so they have the luxury of building a mountain of prerequisites before the evil Turk can step in and say hi.

"Mountain of prerequisites". Simply acknowledging a Genocide does not amount to a "mountain of prerequisites." As for needing Turks, that train of thought is nothing but a Turkish inferiority complex. It's like an abusive husband thinking that his wife needs him. In its present form, Armenians need Turkey like they need that abusive husband! Now make Turkey into the potential that it has to be a great nation, and then I can say that Armenians and Armenia will need that Turkey.

[lal]

Lal,


We live in a very non-utopian reality governed unfortunately by real-politik. Being a small people with very little intrinsic economic or strategic value to the powers that be (US, EU, etc) Armenians (especially in Armenia) can ill-afford to trust that Turkey will honor our reciprocate if Armenians deviate from our seemingly hardline position.

Armenians could do just as you say. We could drop our legitimate cause for genocide recognition or perhaps change our tactics but let me ask you, has Turkey ever done anything that would convince you that they would deviate from their positions?

Lal, if Turkey was governed by people such as yourself, we could create this new reality, but it is not and probably never will be baring a violent revolution and a complete overhaul of the current majority Turkish view.

joseph,

thank you for your nice words about me.

we are no politicians , but if a lots of ordinary people from both sides know and like each other,we slowly can change the public opinions and ongoing stupidity.

ı have a question to you.

is there anything like that written in A.R. s constitition that, borders of turkey is not accepted by A.R.?
and is there any possibility to solve the karabağ issue in peacefull ways with azerbeycan in short period?


it is true that turkey **and more importantly turkish peoples great majority**shows no signs of accepting the crime.believe me ,ı openly and rather loudly defend you here.so be nice to me ok??


but you see,if armenians **both diaspora and A.R.** can change the tactic,they will not loose nothing. because all the world people, if not all governments ,know the genocide by now. even our arabic brothers accept it.this struggle adds nothing to armenian cause anymore.

you people know turks very well. no need me to explain us to you. tension position can well go on for thousands of years. this wont effect turks much.we are used to this kind of endless struggles historicly.

actually this is a middle eastern position. nobody gains nothing.both sides are making a dog fight,loosing a lot without realising it.

a shift in armenian politics, may sound very risky. but an honest and peaceful approach, do have a chance to bring an apology from the turkish side.this is not a dream.

turkey has a 70 million population and the growth is going to stop at around 90-95 millions. this is good news for this area.

turkey will either become a european country***not necessaraly in eu***and join the civilization.

or turkey will become a typical militarist middle eastern islam country far away from civilization.**this is why we walk, calling ourselves armenians ,we dont want this**

which one is safer and better for A.R? and is it smart for armenians try to push turkey out of civilization.

greeks succeeded it. they are no more like us. they completely, mentally and socially,came to a very civilised level.they also became 3 times richer than turks in such a short period. thats why they support turkey about eu and turkey is no more a threat for them. we have lots to learn from them.

it might be interesting to consider different politics...

lal

[lal]

Imagine that you're Armenian living in Armenia,you cook from propane gas, your car is converted to run on propane, you save and conserve water to allow for the cut-offs, you can't rely on electricity. Every time you look from your window you see Masis (Ararat) but you can't walk on it's slopes.
How would you view turks, and of course....azeris ?

peace is needed not only to help A.R. economicly. peace is needed for diaspora armenians ,for turks all together for our mental health,to feel better,to throw the ill feeling of hatred,and to be able to civilise.

unless turks can civilise and become fully democratic,they wont accept the genocide.
unless armenians start really thinking, AR peoples happiness, they wont stop the hostility.

ı dont consider diaspora armenian like your wife and many others considering turks totally as evil people, mentally healthy.
ı dont consider a turk considering that armenians are dirty pigs ,not a mentally healthy person.

probably only real victom here is armenians living in armenia and turkey. ı really dont consider them sick people ,since they have all the rights to feel whichever way they wish to,because mentally sick people not developed good brains are the reason of their positions.they are the most respected people who chose extreme difficult lifes.they are the real heroes in my eyes.



lal