What Turkey must do to become real Democracy

[Greekaiser]

the following are my imaginary suggestions about what Turkey must do to become really democratic:
Of course turkey will never act this way...


1)Constitution:
-Immediate change on the constitution. Turkey for the turks is a fascist chant. Turkey is the land of her inhabitants ,not only the turks that are the majority but other's people also.
-Drop the the article 301 and all other fascist articles.
-Stop banning parties.
-Reduce the barrage from 10% to 3% so that leftist and minority parties can be elected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_constitution

2)Minorities:

-Allowing all Greeks and their children that were kicked from 1923 until today to return to Turkey.
-Granting all human, political and economical rights to them and protect them from the fascist attacks of the notorious Gray Wolves.
-Granting autonomy to Imbros, as the treaty of Lussane said.
-Recognize the Patriarch as Eucumenical one.
-Open the 'school Of Chalchi' and all other greek schools operating in turkey.

-Recognize Kurdish language as the 2nd official.
-Grant the kurds all rights ,including cultural ones and protect them from the fascist Gray Wolves.
-Let the kurds learn their history and language in schools.
-Granting them autonomy to the areas that they are more.

-Recognize all muslim minorities as Laz, Georgian, Arab, Greek, Azeri, Slav (pomaks and bosnians)
-Granting them cultural rights ,if they wish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkey#Ethnic_groups

3)Generally minorities must:
-have human rights and be protected from fascist attacks
-have all economical rights
-have all political rights
-have all cultural rights ,as learning of their language and history and have TV programs and newspapers in their language
-be allowed to carry their symbols and keep their identity
-be recognized by constitution


4)Genocides:
-Stop claiming that armenians and greeks were killing along with russians turkish people in WW1.
-Without conditions open all documents.
-Let scientists and historians to search the turkish landscape to find proofs and mass graves. Some turkish workers had found before some years MASSIVE graves of greeks killed during the greek-pontic genocide. There are lots more...
-Examine the last survivors before the die, because when they die ,turkey will claim that never examined them, and turkey will claim that they are not survivors.
-Let as many survivors and children of survivors, as they want to return back ,and recognize them as minority and giving them ALL minority rights ,described above.
-Give full money repair to the survivors and their countries for all sort of crimes(murders, tortures, rapes, mutilations) and damages(house, land stealing) and for the propaganda of the last 90 years.
-Recognize the Armenian Genocide
-Recognize the Greek Genocide
-Recognize the Assyrian Genocide
-Give an apologize for these three genocides and the propaganda that had been launched all these years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek_Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide

5)Generally turkey must face the reality of history
-turks must not claim that greeks had a plan to exterminate the armenians, until turks came and saved them from the 'bad' greeks.
-turks must not claim that they peacefully and without massacres took over all minor asia
-turks must not claim that the christians were considered equals to the muslims during the ottoman period
-turks must stop claim that ancient anatolians were proto-turkics that were massacred by greeks and armenians (not all turks believe that but some do)

http://www.youtube.com/user/TurkishCivilization

-turks must stop claim that there was always a conspiracy to destroy the 'great' turkish nation
-turks must admit the genocides
-turks must admit that the greek landing on smyrna was legal.
-turks must stop claim that they are real turks and must admit that they are turkified ppl of anatolia
-turks must admit the reality that all muslim minorities are being victim of cultural genocide
-turks must admit some realities on cyprus issue
-turks must stop considering Mustafa Kemal Ataturk as the greatest hero of all ages but probably they should look at his crimes against humanity and minorities
....


6)Militarism
-Turkish military must stop playing any role to the politics
-Turkish military must stop doing coups
-Turkish military expenses must be reduced with an agreement with Greece of course (mutual reduce)
-Turks must stop using the army to make policies

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/07/18/turkey16425.htm

7)Cyprus:
-Turkey must withdraw all settlers and return all properties
-Turkey must accept a federation system that will respect the will of the majority and will not make greek cypriots a minority in their own land.
-Turkey must respect Cyprus being an independent state and not a protectorate of none
-Turkey must open the ports and trade to Cyprus and recognize the Republic.
-Turkey must withdraw all troops, in stages of course

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

8)Aegean:
-Turkey must stop the illegal over flights
-Turkey must seek for a solution through UN and not force
-Turkey must drop the 'Threat of War' against greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute

9)Economy:
-Turkey need to reduce corruption
-Turkey must be interested more in environment
-Turkey must do efforts to make the life of her citizens better

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_economy

10)Human rights:
-Women must be better protected
-Tourists must be protected from racist attacks
-Children also must be safe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_turkey

11)Turkey-Syria:
-Turkey must solve the Hatay- Alexandretta issue through UN
-Turkey must stop threatening Syria with invasions
-Turkey must stop taking all the water of the rivers. The syrians will die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Hatay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Turkey#Syria

[hitite]

I guess we will never become a "real" democracy like..... urm... Greece.

[Greekaiser]

I guess we will never become a "real" democracy like..... urm... Greece.

Greece is not the best democracy you can find...
but is way better than turkey

you should know that nobody seeks revenge and you know that we cannot change the past
we just want turkey to stop be like past and stop deny the past!

[Albatros]

I agree with most, though not with all

the following are my imaginary suggestions about what Turkey must do to become really democratic:
Of course turkey will never act this way

.

And the following are MY imaginary suggestions about what Turkey (ALSO GREECE) must do to push Turkey into a genuine democracy path..

1)Constitution:
-Immediate change on the constitution. Turkey for the turks is a fascist chant. Turkey is the land of her inhabitants ,not only the turks that are the majority but other's people also.
-Drop the the article 301 and all other fascist articles.
-Stop banning parties.
-Reduce the barrage from 10% to 3% so that leftist and minority parties can be elected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_constitution

As far as I know, nowadays the Turkish parliament has passed the bill that amends the article 301 and recently it has been approved by Abdullah Gul.

As for your two other suggestions, I wholeheartedly support them.

2)Minorities:

-Allowing all Greeks and their children that were kicked from 1923 until today to return to Turkey.Granting all human, political and economical rights to them and protect them from the fascist attacks of the notorious Gray Wolves.

If those Greeks would want to return to a land in which standarts of living is below the level of Greece, why not ?

-Granting autonomy to Imbros, as the treaty of Lussane said.

Can you be more specific ? To which article of Lausanne treaty you are referring to ? By autonomy, do you by any chance mean that it should be annexed to Greece?

-Recognize the Patriarch as Eucumenical one.
-Open the 'school Of Chalchi' and all other greek schools operating in turkey.

Basically, I have no objection to the former and as for the latter, I have never understood why the school of Chalchi (Halkilikia you mean ??) situtated on Heybeliada (one of the Prince islands off-Istanbul coast) was closed down in early 1970s. On the other hand, since diplomacy and foreign policy should be based on mutual reciprocity, I think the Patriarch may have a substantial role by acting as a mediator in the Cyprus conflict in exchange for an official recognition of his eucumenical rights.

-Recognize Kurdish language as the 2nd official.

No problem with that. Even Israel allows teaching of Arabic in her schools.

-Grant the kurds all rights ,including cultural ones and protect them from the fascist Gray Wolves.

Definitely agree with that. FYI, they are represented already by DTP which has 23 seats in the parliament and which should strive for their rights instead of doing ass-kissing to PKK.

-Let the kurds learn their history and language in schools.
-Granting them autonomy to the areas that they are more

.

Again, I have no problem with that either, provided that kurds abstain from following PKK and all unite under DTP by snatching off a considerable number of kurdish deputies elected from AKP ranks.

-Recognize all muslim minorities as Laz, Georgian, Arab, Greek, Azeri, Slav (pomaks and bosnians)
-Granting them cultural rights ,if they wish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...#Ethnic_groups

I second that. I think you should also add Alouites (Alevis) to that list since they have suffered a lot from islamofascism.

Generally minorities must:
-have human rights and be protected from fascist attacks
-have all economical rights
-have all political rights
-have all cultural rights ,as learning of their language and history and have TV programs and newspapers in their language
-be allowed to carry their symbols and keep their identity
-be recognized by constitution

I support all wholeheartedly..

Genocides:
-Stop claiming that armenians and greeks were killing along with russians turkish people in WW1.
-Without conditions open all documents.
-Let scientists and historians to search the turkish landscape to find proofs and mass graves. Some turkish workers had found before some years MASSIVE graves of greeks killed during the greek-pontic genocide. There are lots more...
-Examine the last survivors before the die, because when they die ,turkey will claim that never examined them, and turkey will claim that they are not survivors.
-Let as many survivors and children of survivors, as they want to return back ,and recognize them as minority and giving them ALL minority rights ,described above.
-Give full money repair to the survivors and their countries for all sort of crimes(murders, tortures, rapes, mutilations) and damages(house, land stealing) and for the propaganda of the last 90 years.
-Recognize the Armenian Genocide
-Recognize the Greek Genocide
-Recognize the Assyrian Genocide
-Give an apologize for these three genocides and the propaganda that had been launched all these years

As far as Armenian Genocide is concerned, I agree definitely that Turkey should recognize this and apologize ASAP to armenian community. As for the others, particularly Greek one, I wonder why it has not been brought up before? Granted that it must have taken quite some before the armenian community(diaspora) recovers from the trauma of the atrocities in 1915 and bring this issue to the world agenda. I guess, the AG could have been raised much earlier if Armenia had not become Armenian S.S.R, the rulers of which had to act under the direction of communist party. And it is my educated guess that Russian rulers of the Soviet system wouldn't have wanted the genocide topic to become known at that time out of fear that it might stimulate armenian nationalism which was deemed incompatible with the marxist system.

But for Greek G ,I have serious doubts, for Greece was already in the western camp and for various historical and political reasons, she is closer to Europe and to the USA (Hellenic lobby is quite strong there) than Turkey. Why the issue of Pontian genocide was never taken to the recognition of international community before? Greece has always been economically and politically much powerful and influential than Armenia and being a maritime people, Greeks have already had a larger outreach than Armenians.

On the other hand, I agree that what happened to greeks of Istanbul in 1955 was clearly an act of pogrom if not a genocide. I feel very sorry for these gentle, and hard-working people and truly good citizens... Nothing could please me more if they return..

-turks must not claim that greeks had a plan to exterminate the armenians, until turks came and saved them from the 'bad' greeks

.

Who can make such a preposterous claim other than perfect idiots ? why Greeks should kill Armenians ?

-turks must not claim that they peacefully and without massacres took over all minor asia
-turks must not claim that the christians were considered equals to the muslims during the ottoman period
-turks must stop claim that ancient anatolians were proto-turkics that were massacred by greeks and armenians (not all turks believe that but some do)

http://www.youtube.com/user/TurkishCivilization

-turks must stop claim that there was always a conspiracy to destroy the 'great' turkish nation
-turks must admit the genocides

Empires are built everywhere on bloodshed and turks definitely made atrocities to other nations in the course of building their empire. I am glad that this empire has been finished and hope the same for the american empire.

Christians were not considered equals because of the precepts of islam,i;e, it has been and it is still the same in islamic countries.

-turks must admit that the greek landing on smyrna was legal.

Sorry buddy, for me it was clearly an act of invasion, otherwise what the hell the greek army was doing close to Afyon, a city 300+ km away from izmir ?
Besides, that greeks were a majority in smyrna does not justify the landing of greek army on the west anatolia.

-turks must stop claim that they are real turks and must admit that they are turkified ppl of anatolia
-turks must admit the reality that all non-muslim minorities are being victim of cultural genocide

That there is a purified aryan-like turkish race is a matter on which turkish fascists and equally stupid greek fascists converge. Ever heard of janissaries at the time of ottomans ? FYI, ottomans could forcibly draft christian youngsters of the conquested lands into their army. The section of the ottoman army was called janissary army. (Jani (yeni) =new, Sary (Çeri) =soldier). Over centuries millions of people were brought in that way not to mention slaves (female slaves for harem). How could you expect us to be "pure" turk? There were millions of diffrent people who came and went. Even mongolian army once occupied anatolia (recall Timur the limp and the battle of Ankyria).

-turks must admit some realities on cyprus issue

So should greeks. Like for example, the massacre of turkish cypriots by the EOKA and Makarios .

-turks must stop considering Mustafa Kemal Ataturk as the greatest hero of all ages but probably they should look at his crimes against humanity and minorities

Can you please enlighten me about his crimes against humanity by being more specific? As far as the AG is concerned, it was the handiwork of a group made of M.Kemal's archrivals: Enver, Talat, Bahaddin Şakir. If what you mean concerns greeks of İzmir then you need to give a bit of explaining as to what the greek army was doing on anatolian soil while Greece had already won its independence and retreated to its territories longtime ago.

As for turk's consideration of Ataturk as greatest hero of all times, I think, voting by majority for the islamist AKP, they have chosen their way. But don't rejoice too quickly, you may also regret the plight of christians under islamic rule.

Militarism
-Turkish military must stop playing any role to the politics
-Turkish military must stop doing coups
-Turkish military expenses must be reduced with an agreement with Greece of course (mutual reduce)
-Turks must stop using the army to make policies
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/07/18/turkey16425.htm

Though, I should agree with you in the essence, there are so many civilians in turkey who lack nothing to envy the military in many respects.

Cyprus:
-Turkey must withdraw all settlers and return all properties
-Turkey must accept a federation system that will respect the will of the majority and will not make greek cypriots a minority in their own land.
-Turkey must respect Cyprus being an independent state and not a protectorate of none
-Turkey must open the ports and trade to Cyprus and recognize the Republic.
-Turkey must withdraw all troops, in stages of course
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

I am half turkish cypriot and old enough to know what happened before 1974. While you mention cyprus, can you give us a bit of summary about what was EOKA, EOKA-B, Enosis and the infamous "Akritas plan". How and why the 82% majority of greek cypriots, along with a fully-armed militia brought in from greece under Grivas attacked the 18% minority t/c villages, raped their women and killed thousands of innocent turkish cypriots. Anyone coming to the north, are wellcome to "appreciate" the greek handiwork by visiting mass-graves at Murataga, Sandallar and Atlilar villages. As long as Greece and Greek cypriots fail to admit their own atrocities none of your reccomendations above should ever be implemented. BTW, according to 1960 constitution Turkey, Greece and UK are guarantors of the sovereignity of cyprus.

Aegean:
-Turkey must stop the illegal over flights
-Turkey must seek for a solution through UN and not force
-Turkey must drop the 'Threat of War' against greece.

The problem is stemming from the closeness of greek islands to anatolian continental shelf. I think , with mutual goodwill, that problem can be worked out. I don't consider the dogfight between greek and turkish planes over aegean seriously and less as cause of war.

My friend, with increasing islamisation and the islamofascism being on the rampage, your suggestions above , though wellcome by myself and a number of turks, is unlikely to be followed by the majority of turks. It all depends whether the EU and the USA are genuinely sincere about putting turkey on the right track or not and by any means possible (not military I hope).

[Hovik]

-Recognize all muslim minorities as Laz, Georgian, Arab, Greek, Azeri, Slav (pomaks and bosnians)

Don't forget Hamshentsis! (the portion that is muslim)

[Joseph]

Don't forget Hamshentsis! (the portion that is muslim)

He's back!!!

[Hovik]

I never left.... muhahahaha

[Greekaiser]

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As far as I know, nowadays the Turkish parliament has passed the bill that amends the article 301 and recently it has been approved by Abdullah Gul.

Has not passed yet, i think.

.
If those Greeks would want to return to a land in which standarts of living is below the level of Greece, why not ?

True, that's why turkey did that. These greeks probably don't want to return. But many greeks left recently and so they would want to return.

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Can you be more specific ? To which article of Lausanne treaty you are referring to ? By autonomy, do you by any chance mean that it should be annexed to Greece?

The island in the treaty of sevres belonged to greece. After the defeat of greeks in the greek-turkish war for strategical reasons it was decided to be given to turkey although the greeks made up the 97.5% of the island (the rest permanent turk officers, not inhabitants). However it was decided to be given a special administration status (different police...). In 3 years the turks broke the treaty concerning the Imbros. Today the greeks are less than 4% because it was prohibited to speak greek for many years and they left. Its very funny that the turks say that greeks didn't keep their word in cyprus issue...
Annexation? What you are talking about? Nobody said that. Many greeks had left the island the last 15 years. They can return. Turkey doesn't want.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbros#Intercommunal_relations

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Basically, I have no objection to the former and as for the latter, I have never understood why the school of Chalchi (Halkilikia you mean ??) situtated on Heybeliada (one of the Prince islands off-Istanbul coast) was closed down in early 1970s. On the other hand, since diplomacy and foreign policy should be based on mutual reciprocity, I think the Patriarch may have a substantial role by acting as a mediator in the Cyprus conflict in exchange for an official recognition of his eucumenical rights.

The patriarch cannot harm turkey. Turkish government is just fascist.

.
No problem with that. Even Israel allows teaching of Arabic in her schools.

You don't have problem, but turkey does. Israel cannot assimilate the arabs. Turks can assimilate kurds. This is their goal.

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As far as Armenian Genocide is concerned, I agree definitely that Turkey should recognize this and apologize ASAP to armenian community. As for the others, particularly Greek one, I wonder why it has not been brought up before? Granted that it must have taken quite some before the armenian community(diaspora) recovers from the trauma of the atrocities in 1915 and bring this issue to the world agenda. I guess, the AG could have been raised much earlier if Armenia had not become Armenian S.S.R, the rulers of which had to act under the direction of communist party. And it is my educated guess that Russian rulers of the Soviet system wouldn't have wanted the genocide topic to become known at that time out of fear that it might stimulate armenian nationalism which was deemed incompatible with the marxist system.

But for Greek G ,I have serious doubts, for Greece was already in the western camp and for various historical and political reasons, she is closer to Europe and to the USA (Hellenic lobby is quite strong there) than Turkey. Why the issue of Pontian genocide was never taken to the recognition of international community before? Greece has always been economically and politically much powerful and influential than Armenia and being a maritime people, Greeks have already had a larger outreach than Armenians.

On the other hand, I agree that what happened to greeks of Istanbul in 1955 was clearly an act of pogrom if not a genocide. I feel very sorry for these gentle, and hard-working people and truly good citizens... Nothing could please me more if they return..

reasons for not recognition
1)Greek Pontians were 300000 that were massacred. The armenians were 5 times more.
2)The quotes are less
3)Greece follows the politic ''its past'', ''lets find peace''
for obvious reasons.

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Who can make such a preposterous claim other than perfect idiots ? why Greeks should kill Armenians ?

xaxaxaxax
You don't know what the turk fascist historians claim?
That greeks tried in 1070 to genocide the armenians because the armenians were ''traitors'' but turks came in Mantzikert and saved the armenians!!!
They really claim that. You can find this even in the official foreign ministry site.
The truth is that byzantines always suppressed that religious minorities (the armenians are orthodox but a bit different) but the byzantines NEVER NEVER genocided.

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Empires are built everywhere on bloodshed and turks definitely made atrocities to other nations in the course of building their empire. I am glad that this empire has been finished and hope the same for the american empire.

nobody denies that
The problem is that americans know what happenned to native americans. Some turks generally believe that minor asia was empty and that they were peaceful without harming anyone. Turks must start learning some things.

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Sorry buddy, for me it was clearly an act of invasion, otherwise what the hell the greek army was doing close to Afyon, a city 300+ km away from izmir ?
Besides, that greeks were a majority in smyrna does not justify the landing of greek army on the west anatolia.

The occupation of Smyrna was legal. The invasion later inside anatolia was expansionist and harmed turks. 2 different things.

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That there is a purified aryan-like turkish race is a matter on which turkish fascists and equally stupid greek fascists converge. Ever heard of janissaries at the time of ottomans ? FYI, ottomans could forcibly draft christian youngsters of the conquested lands into their army. The section of the ottoman army was called janissary army. (Jani (yeni) =new, Sary (Çeri) =soldier). Over centuries millions of people were brought in that way not to mention slaves (female slaves for harem). How could you expect us to be "pure" turk? There were millions of diffrent people who came and went. Even mongolian army once occupied anatolia (recall Timur the limp and the battle of Ankyria).

yeah but i see turk fascists to deny these. Nobody is pure. But the turks... i think are the less pure ones. When i say admit, i mean that they must stop brainwashing their people about that.

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So should greeks. Like for example, the massacre of turkish cypriots by the EOKA and Makarios .

Nobody denies them. Do you know the book (or movie) ''Barbarism against the t/c ,the other side of the coin''?
Do you know how many graves of t/c have been found in the free part? (i mean revealed) Tell me, do u know any grave found in the occupated part (i mean grave of g/c)
Nobody denies that eoka killed many t/c from 1963-1967 (mainly). The problem with turkey is that in the anatolian issues ,they believe that ''its past'', or ''A.G. is not our fault'' but in cyprus issue they have the policy of ''How you greeks dared to do that? You must pay!''

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Can you please enlighten me about his crimes against humanity by being more specific? As far as the AG is concerned, it was the handiwork of a group made of M.Kemal's archrivals: Enver, Talat, Bahaddin Şakir. If what you mean concerns greeks of İzmir then you need to give a bit of explaining as to what the greek army was doing on anatolian soil while Greece had already won its independence and retreated to its territories longtime ago.

greeks had done mainly 3 massacres against turks in history.
1)Tripoli: 30000 turks killed
2)Minor Asia: some thousands, the turks claim dozens of thousands. Nobody knows
3)Cyprus: Some thousand

I will highlight two things:
1)all these massacres are far more limited than yours
2) and (most important) we admit them! simply
do you know massacres that we hide? Why to hide them? Its shame that people are massacred in wars but its shame to deny them also.
(we may not want to talk about ''the other side of the coin'' but we know it well)

Now do you know any turk that knows what happenned in Smyrna (izmir) in 1922? Most turks believe that the greeks from there left peacefully, with no violence. However this doesn't stop them from making jokes for the greeks. (''Who were the best swimmers of 1922? Answer: greeks of izmir!''). Now if any man finds this as a joke ,he is simply sick.

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As for turk's consideration of Ataturk as greatest hero of all times, I think, voting by majority for the islamist AKP, they have chosen their way. But don't rejoice too quickly, you may also regret the plight of christians under islamic rule.

They vote it for other reasons. Ataturk is a God in turkey.

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I am half turkish cypriot and old enough to know what happened before 1974. While you mention cyprus, can you give us a bit of summary about what was EOKA, EOKA-B, Enosis and the infamous "Akritas plan". How and why the 82% majority of greek cypriots, along with a fully-armed militia brought in from greece under Grivas attacked the 18% minority t/c villages, raped their women and killed thousands of innocent turkish cypriots. Anyone coming to the north, are wellcome to "appreciate" the greek handiwork by visiting mass-graves at Murataga, Sandallar and Atlilar villages. As long as Greece and Greek cypriots fail to admit their own atrocities none of your reccomendations above should ever be implemented. BTW, according to 1960 constitution Turkey, Greece and UK are guarantors of the sovereignity of cyprus.

i think i answered before.
as for the treaty is a different thing. Because the treaty of lusanne also said various of things... (but i see no greeks in turkey)
Don't confuse the Enosis with Akritas plan. Enosis is the idea of union. (idea just that). Akritas plan was the plan of violently make that union even with the massacre of the t/c. If you say that Enosis=akritas then you say that all greeks were members of eoka. All greeks wanted enosis, but how many were involved in the eoka-b?
Turks had also their own terrorist organization.(TMT). TMT also did similar things. Simply, eoka-b was more strong (because of populations), that's why t/c killed were more.

Turks also made many atrocities against innocent g/c of northern cyprus but i see that many turks whether they deny that or they say ''they attacked first. They deserved that.'' But to say the truth ,many turks know that their army did atrocities in northern cyprur in 1974. Do they like to talk about that? Or indeed the g/c deserved that? We are willing to admit our crimes, do you? (when i say you, i mean turkey). We all have sad stories but is see Turkey considering turks being massacred as a crime and greeks to be massacred as a duty.

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The problem is stemming from the closeness of greek islands to anatolian continental shelf. I think , with mutual goodwill, that problem can be worked out. I don't consider the dogfight between greek and turkish planes over aegean seriously and less as cause of war.

Greeks also pass the lines but rarely. They try not to provoke. The dogfights happen so that the turks always say 'we are present'. A turk general himself admitted that. He said that they do that so that greeks understand that turkey will not accept the expansion of the greek waters.
Seriously, we lost the war in 1922, do you think that we will invade suddendly minor asia? i don't think so. Its about defence and only defence.

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My friend, with increasing islamisation and the islamofascism being on the rampage, your suggestions above , though wellcome by myself and a number of turks, is unlikely to be followed by the majority of turks. It all depends whether the EU and the USA are genuinely sincere about putting turkey on the right track or not and by any means possible (not military I hope).

unlikely? lool!Its impossible!
That's why i want turkey in EU as soon as possible.

You are rare turk. You should know that no greek believe that we are saints and you barbarians. All people are born the same but they are raised differently and they find different situations and opportunities. But there are some realities that must be admitted. We do admit many realities. We are not good democracy.
but we give most of the above.
I just hate when turks say to me ''its past''. Of course it is, but what they do for that? Shouldn't the turks be more informed for some things? about history i mean. Its so annoying when they present the turkish armies invading minor asia as heroic and glorious, when they think that for 400 years we were fine...
We don't want to do the same. I just hate them speaking like we are mean and they are heroes!
(in anatolia issues everything is past, even imbros, in cyprus turks never forget...)



Do jews hate germans? No.
Then why armenians and greeks hate turks?
hmmm

Did you know that 400000 greeks were killed in WW2? (300000 of hunger)
then why we don't hate the germans?
I will tell you why. Every year germans come in greece ,students many times and they see the memorials of the german occupation of greece.
A student had said 'We cannot believe that our grandfathers did these things. It's shame.'
The germans had regretted. The germans had stopped.
The turks?
Well i never saw a turk even thinks about what we had suffered. Many of them are even proud. I have seen various of insulting comments against our nation concerning the past. They have no emotions except some turks like you that do have emotions to understand. Unfortunately the turks that i see to have positive and emotional behavior are very few.

[Albatros]

[QUOTE=Greekaiser;29006]

Has not passed yet, i think.

See http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/444309.asp (sorry it is in turkish, but hope you can have it translated).

True, that's why turkey did that. These greeks probably don't want to return. But many greeks left recently and so they would want to return.

According to the estimates, only 3000 or so greeks have remained in Istanbul out of close to 300.000. And those people are too old to leave for greece to start a new life there.The majority reside either on Prince islands or in the vicinity of Yesilkoy (Agiaostafenos) in a sort of semi-isolation. I don't think greeks might want to return to a city that is overpopulated with the hordes from a new wave of anatolian immigrants who are culturally and socially very alien to their lifestyle. They would be better off if they re-settle in the Aegean region for their sake. (this is my personel view)

Many greeks had left the island the last 15 years. They can return. Turkey doesn't want.

OK then.

The patriarch cannot harm turkey. Turkish government is just fascist.

On the contrary, the patriarch can have a subtantial role in the solution of cyprus problem. I think greece should seriously consider this issue-recognition of ecumenical authority- in exchange of the patriarch's mediation in the cyprus problem. It will be beneficial both for greece and turkey.

nobody denies that
The problem is that americans know what happenned to native americans

.

And they continue their killing frenzy in vietnam, ıraq, el salvador etc..thus continuing the legacy of their ancestors.

Some turks generally believe that minor asia was empty and that they were peaceful without harming anyone. Turks must start learning some things

.

I wonder who these "some turks" are ? You see, the historybooks in turkey are full of the stories of the battle of mankizert, the conquest of broussa and istanbul etc.. I don't think any turk sincerely could believe that anatolia was an empty land and there were no habitations there. The problem is stemming from the depiction of forced occupation of these areas as a matter of national pride in turkey.

The occupation of Smyrna was legal.

..by greek standards.

The invasion later inside anatolia was expansionist and harmed turks. 2 different things

.

If greeks had restrained themselves into defending smyrna only, I would have had more empathy for their cause. But greek army not only attacked and plundered anatolian towns, but they did it along with allied forces (britts, frenchies, italians and russians from the east).

greeks had done mainly 3 massacres against turks in history.
1)Tripoli: 30000 turks killed
2)Minor Asia: some thousands, the turks claim dozens of thousands. Nobody knows
3)Cyprus: Some thousand

I will highlight two things:
1)all these massacres are far more limited than yours
2) and (most important) we admit them! simply

If you admit them, then both greece and g/c should give the priority into resolving the cyprus problem at first. And it won't be solved by playing the EU card since any reasonable person knows that turkey will never be inside EU, irrespective of whatever she does as far A.G, cyprus and other issues are concerned. majority of turks are culturally and socially very different from europeans and sometimes they are diametrically opposite.Eu is built on judeo-christian values and a muslim turkey would not fit into that.

Now do you know any turk that knows what happenned in Smyrna (izmir) in 1922? Most turks believe that the greeks from there left peacefully, with no violence. However this doesn't stop them from making jokes for the greeks. (''Who were the best swimmers of 1922? Answer: greeks of izmir!''). Now if any man finds this as a joke ,he is simply sick.

I don't believe that greeks left peacefully. Not content with what turkish historybooks have taught us at school, I investigated the Smyrna issue and found out about the atrocities of nuraddin pasha against the greek and armenian locals of the town. All this is vividly described in the book by Dido Sotiriyu and I believe her words are genuine. FYI, Sotiriyu also condemns in her book, how local inhabitants were treachorously handed over to turkish soldiers by allied forces on september 9. (greek army had already left the town). On that account, I suggest you come to terms with your fellow countryman panos26 who post here and who claims that it was greeks who had burnt the city.

As for the tasteless and sordid joke, yes I heard about it, so did I for "Kalo Turkos Mono Nekros".

Don't confuse the Enosis with Akritas plan. Enosis is the idea of union. (idea just that). Akritas plan was the plan of violently make that union even with the massacre of the t/c. If you say that Enosis=akritas then you say that all greeks were members of eoka. All greeks wanted enosis, but how many were involved in the eoka-b?

That was the dilemma with greeks because if they had any wisdom, they would have seen that such an enosis would peacefully have come true under EU membership and without any bloodshed and without going thru all these sufferings for both t/c and g/c.

Greeks also pass the lines but rarely. They try not to provoke. The dogfights happen so that the turks always say 'we are present'. A turk general himself admitted that. He said that they do that so that greeks understand that turkey will not accept the expansion of the greek waters.
Seriously, we lost the war in 1922, do you think that we will invade suddendly minor asia? i don't think so. Its about defence and only defence

.

I think you are confusing things. If greece exercices its maritime sovereignity rights for these islands, no turkish vessel could even have a free zone to cross due to closeness of the greek islands. Legitimately, greece could be right, however, practically that would make the whole aegean sea greek sovereignity zone.

Then why armenians and greeks hate turks?
hmmm

Did you know that 400000 greeks were killed in WW2? (300000 of hunger)
then why we don't hate the germans?
I will tell you why. Every year germans come in greece ,students many times and they see the memorials of the german occupation of greece.
A student had said 'We cannot believe that our grandfathers did these things. It's shame.'
The germans had regretted. The germans had stopped.
The turks?
Well i never saw a turk even thinks about what we had suffered. Many of them are even proud. I have seen various of insulting comments against our nation concerning the past. They have no emotions except some turks like you that do have emotions to understand. Unfortunately the turks that i see to have positive and emotional behavior are very few

I agree that turks must cease their idea of turkish supremacy and disdain for christian people of the region. I am cautiously optimistic about the increasing number of turkish intellectuals, writers coming to terms with turkey's bloody past. I must say that as for the majority, if they insist on sticking to old ideas and denying the past, they will learn one day EVEN at the expense of learning the hard way !

[Greekaiser]

See http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/444309.asp (sorry it is in turkish, but hope you can have it translated).

ok, you probably right
but still there will be problems with freedom of expression.

According to the estimates, only 3000 or so greeks have remained in Istanbul out of close to 300.000. And those people are too old to leave for greece to start a new life there.The majority reside either on Prince islands or in the vicinity of Yesilkoy (Agiaostafenos) in a sort of semi-isolation. I don't think greeks might want to return to a city that is overpopulated with the hordes from a new wave of anatolian immigrants who are culturally and socially very alien to their lifestyle. They would be better off if they re-settle in the Aegean region for their sake. (this is my personel view)

yeah i understand what you say
In old times the greeks were so many that they could live there. Now they cannot. But the greeks of imbros as i said could live but turkey...

what turkey does is this:
-kicks the greeks (1955) and after 50 years ask them to return back (erdogan called them to return if they wish)
the problem is:
that the only ones that are still in life are less than 30%, they will be happy in greece and only a few of them would have the turkish identity still (needed)
so you can understand that those to return would be less than 1%...

-kicks the greeks of imbros (1950-2000)(mainly 1992-1996) and turkey doesn't say anything
the turks wait...
in 40 years they will call greeks to return
then the greeks will not want to return...
now they can return!

On the contrary, the patriarch can have a subtantial role in the solution of cyprus problem. I think greece should seriously consider this issue-recognition of ecumenical authority- in exchange of the patriarch's mediation in the cyprus problem. It will be beneficial both for greece and turkey.

Greece is the only country that supports the ecumenical authority but its impossible to happen. Even russia doesn't want that. You should compare how the arabs treat the orthodox patriarchs and how the turks do. Then you may understand that the claim that turks are more tollerant than arabs in terms of religion is just a myth.

And they continue their killing frenzy in vietnam, ıraq, el salvador etc..thus continuing the legacy of their ancestors.

true they get lot of propaganda and they think they protect their country with this way. Their wars today are a bit different but still are imperialistic.

I wonder who these "some turks" are ? You see, the historybooks in turkey are full of the stories of the battle of mankizert, the conquest of broussa and istanbul etc.. I don't think any turk sincerely could believe that anatolia was an empty land and there were no habitations there. The problem is stemming from the depiction of forced occupation of these areas as a matter of national pride in turkey.

this turkish pride costs the reality of history.
when i say empty ,i mean they pretend that it was empty (lol)
when they come and say to me that they fully respected all people and that they are pure turks (they didn't assimilated anyone) then where all the christian people gone?
they pretend that these people were just disappeared...

..by greek standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_%C4%B0zmir#Legality_of_the_occupation

no. Ottoman empire had signed a treaty. The treaty of Sevres. This said:
-recognition of an armenian state
-recognition of kurdish state
-creation of turkish state
-recognition of arabian states
-partial disarmament of turkish forces

-temporary ,legal occupation of Smyrna and the sourounding areas for 5 years until the people inside decide their fate. (turkey or greece.)

-give up of eastern thrace to greece.

-temporary occupation of constantinople-istanbul and some other areas to the great powers

this is what you signed.
now kemal said that he will not accept such treaty.
this followed fighting between greek forces and turkish guerillas (1919-1920) and after greek army invaded the turkish territories (1920-1922).
What turks say is that this treaty was too unfair against turkey and their people never wanted something like that.
Nobody denies that this treaty was for the interests of imperialist powers mainly. But this was what hitler also later said and he broke treaty of versailles (which was indeed unfair) and you know what happenned. The difference is that kemal knew when to stop.

We don't want the revise of the treaty of lusanne
don't get angry.

If greeks had restrained themselves into defending smyrna only, I would have had more empathy for their cause. But greek army not only attacked and plundered anatolian towns, but they did it along with allied forces (britts, frenchies, italians and russians from the east).

with the brits ,yes
but the others not
the french left in march 1921 with deals with turkey and they supplied turkey guns
the russians supplied from the first time guns to turkey
the italians were disappointed because they wanted smyrna for themselves and so they also supplied you weapons
the only that supported us were the brits because they wanted to keep the straits and the greeks didn't have such a problem.


all do mistakes...

If you admit them, then both greece and g/c should give the priority into resolving the cyprus problem at first. And it won't be solved by playing the EU card since any reasonable person knows that turkey will never be inside EU, irrespective of whatever she does as far A.G, cyprus and other issues are concerned. majority of turks are culturally and socially very different from europeans and sometimes they are diametrically opposite.Eu is built on judeo-christian values and a muslim turkey would not fit into that.

you will get into EU but in 20 years or something
as for cyprus problem, don't we want to get it resovled?
Turkey put unacceptable terms in the plans. (annan plan)
we want solution, i see no movements
we play the EU card and we use the economical advantage as you use the military and occupation advantage(the greeks cannot return if troops don't leave).
The issue could be solved much before but turkey in purpose stalled it to make time pass so that the settlers become cypriots and so that the refugees don't want to return. (see pogrom problem up)

I don't believe that greeks left peacefully. Not content with what turkish historybooks have taught us at school, I investigated the Smyrna issue and found out about the atrocities of nuraddin pasha against the greek and armenian locals of the town. All this is vividly described in the book by Dido Sotiriyu and I believe her words are genuine. FYI, Sotiriyu also condemns in her book, how local inhabitants were treachorously handed over to turkish soldiers by allied forces on september 9. (greek army had already left the town). On that account, I suggest you come to terms with your fellow countryman panos26 who post here and who claims that it was greeks who had burnt the city.

yeah this book is talking about the smyrna massacre.
i have seen some parts but i have not the power to read the whole.
nurrentin was a psychopath killer. He lynched priests, peacefull turks and let his armies massacre populations. He is #1 responsible for the pontic genocide.
the possibility of greeks burning the city is less than 0%(!)
its idiotic. This is impossible. Even turkish writers (modern) had supported that the claim that greeks did that is a myth and nothing more. Greek troops left the city days before. The burning started some days after the massacre and all christian homes were burned. The greeks would have burned the turkish if they wanted. They were unarmed, incapable of doing that. And they had no reason.

As for the tasteless and sordid joke, yes I heard about it, so did I for "Kalo Turkos Mono Nekros".

this is not a joke. This is a fascist chant of some greek nazis.



i will answer the rest another time
because i have to go