Centuries of peace between Anatolian muslims and Christians

[Steph]

[QUOTE=hitite;29915]

Pax Ottomana is a made up term used to describe the "relative" peace that some people believe to have existed during the heydays of the Otto Emp. You cannot see it used anywhere and the person who first used it was probably Turkish

And I would guess that the only person to believe it would be turkish

[imported_Anomaly]

This does not of course rule out the fact that this sort of peace was upheld by brute force but there was also elements of law, order, justice and economy that also palyed an important role in these times of "relative" peace.

So what Egeli says is one sided. It wasnt all that rosy and he knows it himself too.

And Bells remark of a 1000 years of oppression and genocide is also bull crap and he knows it.

I have tried to get this point across dozens of times to Turks who use the "we lived side by side for 600 year in peace, so why would we have suddenly wanted to exterminate the Armenians" argument. Sure, the Armenians weren't slaughtered en mass everyday by the Turks throughout the entire 600 years of their rein. However, I'd like to know how or why the Turks automatically equate that to some Utopian bliss they like to pretend existed. African-Americans were not butchered by the thousands everyday prior to the Civil Right movement, either. Does that mean that blacks and whites lived side-by-side in peace and harmony, too?

The reason Armenians and Turks "got along" for as long as they did is because Armenians remained quiet and subservient, much like the African-Americans did with their white "owners". Had they demanded better treatment and equality right off the bat, the Armenian Genocide would have taken place hundreds of years earlier. So let's not make-believe that Armenians and Turks were friends prior to the genocide merely because the Armenians were forced to put up with their situation.

[Steph]

I have tried to get this point across dozens of times to Turks who use the "we lived side by side for 600 year in peace, so why would we have suddenly wanted to exterminate the Armenians" argument. Sure, the Armenians weren't slaughtered en mass everyday by the Turks throughout the entire 600 years of their rein. However, I'd like to know how or why the Turks automatically equate that to some Utopian bliss they like to pretend existed. African-Americans were not butchered by the thousands everyday prior to the Civil Right movement, either. Does that mean that blacks and whites lived side-by-side in peace and harmony, too?

The reason Armenians and Turks "got along" for as long as they did is because Armenians remained quiet and subservient, much like the African-Americans did with their white "owners". Had they demanded better treatment and equality right off the bat, the Armenian Genocide would have taken place hundreds of years earlier. So let's not make-believe that Armenians and Turks were friends prior to the genocide merely because the Armenians were forced to put up with their situation.

If we look at the situation of Jews in Germany up to 1930s. They were well integrated, hardly noticeable as a distinct minority, highly educated, well-positioned within industry, medicine, education and the arts. Indeed their contribution to society brought many, many benefits
Along comes WW1,defeat, the disintegration of the German Empire,economic collapse, perhaps the disintegration of Germany as a state, remember how relatively recent the German state is, even now.
Germany was falling apart with mutinies in the armed forces, starvation in the streets and political extremists on every corner.
The German power brokers needed scapegoats, a target, to focus the nation, to draw the German people together. Who to target? The easiest, a group united by a religion not practised (although tolerated) by Germans. The German latent hatred of Auslanders was uncapped and Pandora's Box was opened.
Mid-19th Century, ottoman empire, "the sick man of Europe", defeat, disintegration of the empire, breakdown of Anatolia into nation-states, economic collapse.
Armenians were the easiest target. Integrated? Partially and really dependent upon location, ie Constantinople. Tolerated ? Barely, discrimination written into ottoman law.
Every nation has it's own "target" nation, it may only manifest itself in the form of humour.."heard the one about the Polack? etc". To turn the dial to "Hatred" is but a tweak of the controls. Inherent in the sub-conscious of every nation is tribal survival.
Does this excuse the turks ? Never, never, never.
Civilised modern states have more control, their populations more educated et al than ever before.
Why then do many turks, regardless of which flag is over their head, continue to exhibit the desire to revel in and repeat ,if given the chance, actions from their disgusting past ?

[lal]

Of course it has to be a lie. Anything by the Turkish press has to be lie, even if it is by a very liberal newspaper. Many Turkish-Armenians write for the TDN. Greeks based in Greece also have a weekly column in the TDN. Why do you think the Turkish daily news is written only in English? Such a liberal newspaper in Turkey will be universally hated if anyone could read it.

I have seen TDN posted on this forum many times, and used as a source for many pro-Armenian arguments. Why the sudden change in heart?

Turkish and Armenian nationalists want it to be fake. If it isn't, it will weaken their historical revisionism that Muslim and Anatolian Christians have been like oil and water all throughout history.

Christian Anatolians were exterminated from their homeland in less than a decade. What about the other 990 years? I personally have not heard of any state oppression against Armenians before Abdul Hamid II. And that was in the late 19th century. If I am wrong, that is okay, because I am here to learn.

1000 years is a very, very long time. Anatolia is historically the most culturally and ethnically mixed place on the planet. Ottoman/Byzantine/Roman Anatolia was simply incompatible with nationalism; every ethnic group wanted Anatolia for itself.

Every ethnic group believes that Anatolia, by some god ordained law, only belongs to them.

History has always been manipulated by nationalists as a way to bolster national unity and legitimacy. I hope globalization will save us all from this horrible disease.

ı think neither you or me or hitit represent the majority of turkish people about armenian issue.although turkey has a great potential of turizm, we only like christians as turists,we dont want them as neighbours.some educated turks who want to belong to west as person,or have to work with europeans or live or study outside of turkey or simply have moral values,feel uncomfortable about this problem and try to defend ottoman period as a defence mechanizm. it is a fact that muslims and christians and jews did indeed lived together peacefully for long centuries together and they were not forcebly converted to islam. but we need to think how muslims conqured their lands in the beginning and high taxes they had to pay and the terrible end of christianity in anatolia. than as a human we really dont have much to say. we cant explain the situation simply calling it a civil war.certainly not.

ı dont respect to any religon. ı think religons are the major reason of cultural clashes and wars.and ı believe islam is the worst of worse together with judaizm. christianities traditions-- at least orthodox christianity which ım only familiar with--is certainly better than the other two.

so , as a person,ı feel ı belong to minority in this country. ı can not openly declare that ı am an atheist. ı had to pretend like a muslim all my life which is ,ı think disgusting.

ı think armenians and turks must understand something which they seem not to. in anatolia and balkans it was a war of religons. a turk meant and still means a muslim. and a greek or armenian meant and still means a christian. you cant be a muslim armenian or muslim greek and you cant be a christian turk. nationalizm is artificial. we are racially similar people.

to understand this today ,change your name to isabella for example and try to live as an armenian woman in turkey. then you will see what a christian to be is.you are no more a turk.

in recent history,turks are the only muslims --only may be together with algerians-- ,who fought against christians and lost millions of people in the wars. and armenians and greeks are the only christians lost millions of people and lands agaist muslims. so these people are fanaticly stick to nationalizm and to their religon.

cure is time. turks started to chage. so are armenians. one day in the future we will be friends again. and ofcourse we will be the one to apologise.

[Joseph]

If we look at the situation of Jews in Germany up to 1930s. They were well integrated, hardly noticeable as a distinct minority, highly educated, well-positioned within industry, medicine, education and the arts. Indeed their contribution to society brought many, many benefits
Along comes WW1,defeat, the disintegration of the German Empire,economic collapse, perhaps the disintegration of Germany as a state, remember how relatively recent the German state is, even now.
Germany was falling apart with mutinies in the armed forces, starvation in the streets and political extremists on every corner.
The German power brokers needed scapegoats, a target, to focus the nation, to draw the German people together. Who to target? The easiest, a group united by a religion not practised (although tolerated) by Germans. The German latent hatred of Auslanders was uncapped and Pandora's Box was opened.
Mid-19th Century, ottoman empire, "the sick man of Europe", defeat, disintegration of the empire, breakdown of Anatolia into nation-states, economic collapse.
Armenians were the easiest target. Integrated? Partially and really dependent upon location, ie Constantinople. Tolerated ? Barely, discrimination written into ottoman law.
Every nation has it's own "target" nation, it may only manifest itself in the form of humour.."heard the one about the Polack? etc". To turn the dial to "Hatred" is but a tweak of the controls. Inherent in the sub-conscious of every nation is tribal survival.
Does this excuse the turks ? Never, never, never.
Civilised modern states have more control, their populations more educated et al than ever before.
Why then do many turks, regardless of which flag is over their head, continue to exhibit the desire to revel in and repeat ,if given the chance, actions from their disgusting past ?

Spot on.

[hitite]

Why then do many turks, regardless of which flag is over their head, continue to exhibit the desire to revel in and repeat ,if given the chance, actions from their disgusting past ?

Maybe its because we can't get the barbarity out of our DNA while all Armenians who have been blessed with a spotless clean past have evolved into a new Homo.

[bell-the-cat]

Can anyone find a picture of this jug so I can tell you how fake it is? I'm a pottery specialist at the LA Museum of Ancient History.

One jug needn't be a fake. But to extrapolate just from that one example an entire thesis - that is producing a lie.

[imported_Anomaly]

One jug needn't be a fake. But to extrapolate just from that one example an entire thesis - that is producing a lie.

Exactly. I work in the nutritional supplement industry, and like any other business, I see these kinds of tactics all the time. Take fat burners. It's a huge (no pun intended) category of products right now, of course. Due to this, manufacturers try to find anything possible to sell to people for weight loss. For example, they have taken green tea, which is a phenomenal antioxidant, and CLA, which is a "good fat" that's excellent for over all health, and are marketing them as "fat burners" because of some tiny, minuscule side-benefit they posses for the metabolism. They have based an entire marketing campaign on this practically non-existent property, complete with studies, and opinions of "experts" that "prove" it works. But alas, most people find out the hard way that they don't do what it says they do.

Likewise, it is more than plausible that such a jug exists, and many more like it. In fact, I have no DOUBT that many Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks were very good friends, and got along just fine. Continuing my example from my last post, this is no different than some white owners who befriended their black slaves, treating them "better than they deserved" according to the mainstream opinion of that time. HOWEVER.....taking a few anomalies, and calling them the norm IS a lie (as the cat said). It's typical marketing tactics. Over all, the only way these people survived as long as they did was by taking the massive abuses and civil rights violations they were given on a daily basis. To call that "living side-by-side in peace" today is an insult to one's intelligence.

[bell-the-cat]

Of course it has to be a lie. Anything by the Turkish press has to be lie, even if it is by a very liberal newspaper. Many Turkish-Armenians write for the TDN. Greeks based in Greece also have a weekly column in the TDN. Why do you think the Turkish daily news is written only in English? Such a liberal newspaper in Turkey will be universally hated if anyone could read it.

I have seen TDN posted on this forum many times, and used as a source for many pro-Armenian arguments. Why the sudden change in heart?

The TDN has multiple personalities - for every "liberal" article it publishes, it will publish at least two "traditional, by-the-book, toe-the-state-line" ones. As a newspaper, it is not a heavyweight - it doesn't have the stature or self-confidence to stand on its own, it doesn't have the state control for people to read into its articles the opinions or possible changes in policy of the Turkish state.

[bell-the-cat]

so , as a person,ı feel ı belong to minority in this country. ı can not openly declare that ı am an atheist. ı had to pretend like a muslim all my life which is ,ı think disgusting.

Do you have to actually pretend (as opposed to just biting your tongue and not saying anything when around certain religious people)?

OK, this time of the year its difficult to ignore the overwhelming presence of Islam when ghastly wailings from dozens of minarets wake you up at dawn, the TV is full of sanctimonious programs praising Islam, and you can't get a proper meal until it gets dark. But, setting aside the horrors of Ramazan (and maybe also the pressure of parents and relatives), is it really that difficult in a day to day basis to live without Islamic interference and pressure?

ı think armenians and turks must understand something which they seem not to. in anatolia and balkans it was a war of religons.

I think that's true - while it isn't the whole story, especially regarding the Armenian Genocide, over the longer period, over those 1000 years of "living side by side", it was a war of religions.