Calling all Turks

[Steph]

I concur. It needs to be genuine and based on the sentiments of the majority of the people or a political party representative of the majority. However any action remotely feeling like collective punishment will result in entrenching the denial even deeper than it is now (so much so our great grand kids will still be talking about it). Achieving recognition without reconciliation will be a pyrrhic victory. Granted reconciliation won’t come cheap, it may end up costing billions but it won’t be like sending a blank check or title deeds across to anyone claiming a lost relative. A crucial element will be the preservation and restoration of cultural and archeological sites, and re-building them brick by brick if need be. It will be done not to punish or for revenge but because it’s the right thing to do as custodians of this land. But I also don’t think a lot of Armenians get that any reconciliation will end up costing them a lot of time, energy and financial resources as well. It’s going to require a paradigm shift in thinking for all concerned.

Hello Ferdi, did you post this? We're squaring the circle, you & I.
A heck of a lot of hard work for all involved, as you say.

[hipeter924]

Though there is difference between British colonization of New Zealand (which led to the vast majority of land been stolen) and the Armenian Genocide, the concept is still sort of the same I think. We have a tribunal here in NZ to resolve land claims and grievances against the government authorities for the Maori people, who had their land stolen/livelihoods destroyed.

I think a tribunal should be set up in Turkey to resolve claims (if the genocide is recognized by the Turkish government), the concept being that Armenians can state all their claims (territorial and otherwise) to the Turkish government. From there the Turkish government could pick and choose which to agree to, but in the end even a little bit helps. The government here didn't start resolving claims till with Maori till the 1970s/1980s, but public lobbying/government change of heart eventually forced them to.

So I think that it will be a slow process, perhaps 120+ years (when the genocide is recognized) under the best scenario for claims to just start being resolved because the Turks don't want to give way to anything, so it would take lots of public lobbying.

[Sako]

On 29 October 1918, Dr. Nazim who is one of the major responsible of Genocides, flee to Germany with 665 000 Turkish gold pounds which belongs to mainly 'deported' Armenians. He was sentenced to death 1919, 5 July by Ottoman courts.
Several times he wrote to M. Kemal that he is useless in Europe and wants to come Ankara to serve. He succeeded to survive after some assasination attempts and permitted to return Turkey in 1922.
Anyway, he couldnt escape from death so much and hanged in 1926, not for the crimes he committed but M. Kemal wanted to get rid of him.

And this is just one of the cases, Ferdi, there are thousands and thousands more. I'm not asking you to give back the lands and everything else, we can't live happily at the expense of someone else's pain and suffering like Turkey did for a century. We take back simply what was and is still ours and the reason Turkey doesn't do that is because A LOT that it has belongs to us. Is it wrong to ask for that? Of course, Turkey will have personal losses as well but they won't be losing what was their's, they'll be giving back what was ours and strive to change what they did. This is called justice and not what you propose, that is the shortcut. No one needs mere recognition. I say this politically and as a person who has seen both the good and bad sides of this world properyly and as a person who puts himself in the shoes of other people before blaming or even talking at all.

Saco, that’s ridiculous. Your suggestions sound more like a Christmas wish list for Santa Clause than reality.

And Santa Claus is for children.

And your famous for posting your mini-lines, . Hey, I think I just came up with a new term .

If Turkey is doing the recognising for the sake of Armenians then it is doing it for the wrong reasons. Turkey should do it because it will be beneficial for Turkish society as a whole.

YES, but especially for the Armenians. Their to blame and if they simply do everything for themselves, that will be selfish and the point of recognition will be lost. If they do then they will directly help themselves. So it's like, you help us, you help yourselves. Turkey is a large and powerful nation and I respect it but the Armenian Genocide issue makes it look like a joke. If this issue is cleared up properly, Turkey will be able to EARN it's respect finally instead of stealing it. We're not going to simply accept a mere recognition so Turkish citizens will live peacefully. Turkey will not flourish at the expense of Armenia and Turkey or any other country in it's right mind would do the same.

Ouch that hurts. It's the second time I've been called 'old' this week. First by my 16 year old niece who called me 'officially old' after my birthday and now by you. Give me a break I'm only 36.

Hahahahaha, sorry bro, I didn't mean it that way . We were both at boiling point when I said that.

Well don't let it be said that Ataturk never did anything useful for the Armenians (even if it was just coincidental). I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for the thanks though :-)

Yeah, I agree, the Armenians were massacred and then Ataturk did something useful for the Armenian Community, . He didn't do it for us, he did it because of the money and also so he might look better in the eyes of the Turkish people and maybe even the Armenian people and the world. Also, you didn't answer my last letter. I think you should, no matter how painful it is.

I concur. It needs to be genuine and based on the sentiments of the majority of the people or a political party representative of the majority. However any action remotely feeling like collective punishment will result in entrenching the denial even deeper than it is now (so much so our great grand kids will still be talking about it). Achieving recognition without reconciliation will be a pyrrhic victory. Granted reconciliation won’t come cheap, it may end up costing billions but it won’t be like sending a blank check or title deeds across to anyone claiming a lost relative. A crucial element will be the preservation and restoration of cultural and archeological sites, and re-building them brick by brick if need be. It will be done not to punish or for revenge but because it’s the right thing to do as custodians of this land. But I also don’t think a lot of Armenians get that any reconciliation will end up costing them a lot of time, energy and financial resources as well. It’s going to require a paradigm shift in thinking for all concerned.

I agree with a lot that you say except for one line. "Achieving recognition without reconciliation will be a pyrrhic victory."

It would be a victory for Turkey, not Armenia. A lot still exists that belongs rightfully to us. Of course, I'm not saying Turkey will have to help EVERY Armenian on the globe, that's impossible and will cost trillions, not millions or billions. But many of the problems I mentioned were not even material losses such as money or land, they were issues that would come up after recognition, another reason why Turkey won't open it's mouth. If it was that easy, why aren't the Turks doing that? We won't simply go with your "victory" approach so that Turks can sleep peacefully at the expense of Armenians. My ancestors, were all murdered, many in their sleep, mothers were raped, virgins were burned under the smiles of the Turks, SO MUCH was stolen which you don't even know about and still exists in your treasuries, and you only offer recognition? You live at our expense. I don't blame you for not seeing what I'm saying, you aren't Armenian. You don't fully appreciate what's happened and still happens today, you don't know what your country took away from us (not only lands, forget about that) and won't give back now, hiding everything. You ask me to close my eyes and blindly accept what you offer so you can have a peace of mind. That would mean forgetting everything, what you offer is almost disrespectful, you don't understand that fact. I'm not hating you or anything. I understand EVERYTHING you say and feel, I share your feeling, I understand you and feel bad almost myself but I won't forget my own people. I'm not a nationalist, I simply state the facts. If we murdered all of the Turks in Turkey, your family, your own parents, your own sisters, your brothers, your children, robbed everyone, raped, burned, etc. How would you feel? I have many talents, not to be bragging or anything, but the one I value almost the most is my ability to understand others, to put myself in their shoes. When I say all this, I don't feel proud, standing with an Armenian Flag over all the Turkish people and shouting out "THIS IS WHAT YOU DESERVE". I hate people like that, I might kill a person for saying that near me. But this is NOT what we deserve either. Turkey will have to work hard to end this properly or else, years later, this conversation will be opened again and something far worse may happen. Mere recognition is nothing, Ferdi, this will only close this topic up for awhile but my way of thinking will be the same way many others think soon enough (they already do) and that may lead to many more problems. Isn't it better to end it now, while we CAN? Isn't it better to lose a lot now then lose much more later? This issue is more serious then you or I can imagine and it isn't one where you can simply recognize it and move on.

I want you to simply understand one fact that Turkey takes the complete blame for what happened. There is no question about dviding the blame so in the end the Armenians would recognize what they did and the Turks would recognize what they did, going home, living happily ever after. And even though they are to blame, they ask us why we are angry, acting as if they are the innocent ones. yes, the Armenians, many of them, take their anger to new heights but if Turkey simply came into the light, that wouldn't happen. The Turks try to compose us when they aren't composed themselves. This issue is very serious and it can't and won't end with a mere recognition. That won't be recognition anymore. That won't be justice. Before, Turkey didn't follow the rules, didn't take the blame like a man, and if they do now, a lot will change. It's never too late (I hope) but Turkey will not flourish at the expense of Armenia, at the expense of my grandfathers, our pain, and our nation. You can get that out of your mind. You would say the same if we did to you what Turkey did to us and that is the right way, this way no one gets hurt, everyone goes home happy. Your other proposal looks good on one side but is simply useless on the other.

[No Pasaran]

No Parsaran, where are you???

Sorry for delaying there was too many difficulties in my life. I couldn't look here for a time. and also i realized this topic become quiet old but whatever i wrote here.

short plots of my life.

My parents were both left side in their youth. They saw too much violence and consequence of being different. They didn't want me to become a little rebel in school (even my kindergarten i was) so i raised with regular education in school till i was 12. when i finished my 5th grade my dad bought a poem book of Nazim Hikmet. During my 12 year old age i started to be worried about many thinks especially that man with black hat and a star on it.

I was inside in many different political(legal-barely legal) groups my school days. I was 16 when Hrant Dink murdered. We were in the Kemalism and national security lesson next day. Teacher (Colonel in army) and his fascist butt-kissers were start to talked about Armenians, and their big lies and hero's of Turkish youth. When i started to answer them situation went badly people tried beat me and 2 friends of mine and of school. after couple weeks half of the school was hating me and principle forced teachers not to give me my real grades. we become so much angry and one painted whole school walls with political slogans. so day after we all kicked out. I started a school on a hill with 100 of fascist and study in that school for 1.5 year.

it was not a good time but finally i graduated in June. I am in Los Angeles till June of 2009 and after that i am going back to Turkey for University.
Nearly i went all demonstrations without an political organization or with autonomist anarchists. I guess last of my i never be a part of any political organization. But i will never away from my ideas and beliefs i am always ready to do something good for people of world.

thank you for listening

[Edoman]

Sorry for delaying there was too many difficulties in my life. I couldn't look here for a time. and also i realized this topic become quiet old but whatever i wrote here.

short plots of my life.

My parents were both left side in their youth. They saw too much violence and consequence of being different. They didn't want me to become a little rebel in school (even my kindergarten i was) so i raised with regular education in school till i was 12. when i finished my 5th grade my dad bought a poem book of Nazim Hikmet. During my 12 year old age i started to be worried about many thinks especially that man with black hat and a star on it.

I was inside in many different political(legal-barely legal) groups my school days. I was 16 when Hrant Dink murdered. We were in the Kemalism and national security lesson next day. Teacher (Colonel in army) and his fascist butt-kissers were start to talked about Armenians, and their big lies and hero's of Turkish youth. When i started to answer them situation went badly people tried beat me and 2 friends of mine and of school. after couple weeks half of the school was hating me and principle forced teachers not to give me my real grades. we become so much angry and one painted whole school walls with political slogans. so day after we all kicked out. I started a school on a hill with 100 of fascist and study in that school for 1.5 year.

it was not a good time but finally i graduated in June. I am in Los Angeles till June of 2009 and after that i am going back to Turkey for University.
Nearly i went all demonstrations without an political organization or with autonomist anarchists. I guess last of my i never be a part of any political organization. But i will never away from my ideas and beliefs i am always ready to do something good for people of world.

thank you for listening

You can be a “Cool Surfer Dude” if you stayed here with us in LA. I think you should.

Anyway, make sure at least you make a trip to the Universal studios "City Walk" (Don’t miss on driving the NASCAR race cars Simulator), Venice Beech (When the weather is a little warmer, but it doesn’t matter, the freak shows are always there, just don't buy anything from the gang bangers), good time right now to go snowboarding in Big Bear, and a trip to Magic Mountain for some killer rides before you go back to Turkey.

Everything will work out kid; don’t worry too much about it.

[Sako]

Sorry for delaying there was too many difficulties in my life. I couldn't look here for a time. and also i realized this topic become quiet old but whatever i wrote here.

short plots of my life.

My parents were both left side in their youth. They saw too much violence and consequence of being different. They didn't want me to become a little rebel in school (even my kindergarten i was) so i raised with regular education in school till i was 12. when i finished my 5th grade my dad bought a poem book of Nazim Hikmet. During my 12 year old age i started to be worried about many thinks especially that man with black hat and a star on it.

I was inside in many different political(legal-barely legal) groups my school days. I was 16 when Hrant Dink murdered. We were in the Kemalism and national security lesson next day. Teacher (Colonel in army) and his fascist butt-kissers were start to talked about Armenians, and their big lies and hero's of Turkish youth. When i started to answer them situation went badly people tried beat me and 2 friends of mine and of school. after couple weeks half of the school was hating me and principle forced teachers not to give me my real grades. we become so much angry and one painted whole school walls with political slogans. so day after we all kicked out. I started a school on a hill with 100 of fascist and study in that school for 1.5 year. it was not a good time but finally i graduated in June. I am in Los Angeles till June of 2009 and after that i am going back to Turkey for University.

Glad to have you back No Pasaran, seems like ages since we talked last time . Edoman gave you some great ideas there, make sure you go and see LA at it's best, you don't know when you'll ever go back. When I was in Florida, the same happened to me you can say. Spent my last days in the US in Disney World . Only two but great days, saw all four parks. Gotta love Orlando, really peaceful place. Nothing beats Armenia though .

Nearly i went all demonstrations without an political organization or with autonomist anarchists. I guess last of my i never be a part of any political organization. But i will never away from my ideas and beliefs i am always ready to do something good for people of world.

Kodus my friend, you hit the nail. We all live with different beliefs and all in different parts of the world but our goal, to try our level best to help, should be the same. Welcome back again, hope you stay this time.

[No Pasaran]

I am here for sure. actually i am trying to read old topics and pages before to get into discussion. nice to see you again. btw i dont know if there is any but can we make a small topic with basic Turkish-Armenian translations. like as Barev, thank you .. ?

[Sako]

Dude, there is, the thread's called Hayeren Khosaktsutsyun. I started many interesting threads, they just vanished into the archives though, not that I blame anyone, we don't have enough time nowadays, things get hectic from time to time. Anyways, there is a lot you can learn from there. I'm a pure Armenian living in Armenia, lol, I'll be happy to help bro.

[Alexandros]

Dude, there is, the thread's called Hayeren Khosaktsutsyun. I started many interesting threads, they just vanished into the archives though, not that I blame anyone, we don't have enough time nowadays, things get hectic from time to time. Anyways, there is a lot you can learn from there. I'm a pure Armenian living in Armenia, lol, I'll be happy to help bro.

Here`s the link to your thread:

http://www.armeniangenocide.com/showthread.php?t=3605

[No Pasaran]

sh'norhakal em