Calling all Turks

[Edoman]

Joseph, thanks for putting it in perspective. So much to learn. You know, somehow I get the feeling that Armenians in general would support the original objectives of ARF.

BTW, I finally found out who Dro is.
He was the commander of the second battalion of the Armenian volunteers wasn’t he. At one time he asked the Russians for one lousy battery of cannon and a score or two of machine guns which would have given his battle hardened men a good chance to break through the Turkish front and join the Sasounians. Would you believe they refused, those freaking heartless commanders of despotic Russia; and to think that Armenians saved their skin... Nevertheless 10000 mountaineers succeeded in facing off 50000 well armed Turks and Kurds for two months. This is with antique peace of a crap for a weapon and to top it all off you hardly had any food or ammunition… Hell you had to make your own ammunition!
They must have thought, “What else is new.” Ha

[Sako]

Amen. The Turks should think about this or maybe they already do, that's why they see us as a threat. If not, they wouldn't jump out of their skin to blockade every peice of information, even on the web.

[imported_ferdi]

- The Dashnaks and Hunchaks did indeed committ atrocities albeit at a much smaller and infrequent scale that any moral equivalency to the Turkish atrocities against the Christian subjects is absurd and just a strawman arguement.

Guys, you won't appreciate the irony but Turks use a similar type of argument i.e. the orders for deportations were given to prevent atrocities and subversive activities from murderous Dashnaks etc. Your point about the attacks being smaller and at infrequent scale cannot be argued against however the "moral equivalency" is difficult to swallow. The sanctity of a life should not be discounted, be it 1 or 1 million. There are Turks that feel just as aggrieved as Armenians (ofcourse in much much smaller numbers). Perhaps if the Armenian community demonstrated a little less ambivalence against the scores of innocent Turks murdered at hands of rogue Armenian militia's then you might be able to breakdown the wall of suspicion that a lot of people in Turkey still have. Imagine if a shrine were also erected in Yerevan recognizing the attrocities committed by Hunchaks against innocent turkish civilians? OK probably enough to induce projectile vomiting but no doubt it would give the average turk a moral wake up call. Perhaps they might understand this is less about politics and really about a redressing individual injustices regardless of ethnicity. Just a thought....

[Steph]

it would give the average turk a moral wake up call.

Dream on, ferdi, dream on.

[Sako]

Well, at least you gave an average opinion Ferdi. You even signed up just to say all this. Not bad, most Turks and even people from other countries blame us sometimes as if WE’RE the ones that committed Genocide, lol. You forget something though when you give in your opinion, I’ll tell you why.

(((Guys, you won't appreciate the irony but Turks use a similar type of argument i.e. the orders for deportations were given to prevent atrocities and subversive activities from murderous Dashnaks etc. Your point about the attacks being smaller and at infrequent scale cannot be argued against however the "moral equivalency" is difficult to swallow.)))

First of all, don’t compare a lake with an ocean. Turkey didn’t just wage war. The Armenians were almost wiped out completely so when you talk about morals, remember that all that you describe happened AFTER the Genocide, not before. The Turks try to find a peace of mind, thinking about what we have done to them, trying to forgive themselves for what they have done artificially rather then simply asking for forgiveness normally. That is what’s painful and against morals. It’s not the fact that Turkey doesn’t accept the Genocide that’s so painful but rather it’s that they try to search for needles in a large haystack, putting forward pathetic arguments, trying to make us look wrong. You know why? Because one mistake on our side could make all the difference, don’t you get it? It’s like that jungle story. A drought takes place in a jungle and all the animals ask each other who drank the most water, dishonoring Mother Nature or something like that. The Elephant finds a great excuse, replying, “I’m a big animal and I do a lot of heavy duty, you know, so I drank maybe a little too much water”. Everyone appreciates the elephant saying he’s a big animal and deserves the water and all, not blaming him in any way. In the same way, many, many animals find their excuses and it’s soon a sheep’s turn to talk. He bows his head and says, “I … I‘m sorry. The other day I walked a very long distance and when I got to the river, I drank three mouthfuls of water which was more then enough for me.” All the animals look at him for a second and then blame him completely for the jungles water shortage.

You see what I’m saying? The elephant, the lion, the yaks, the bears, etc. all drank a hundred times more water then the sheep but in the end the sheep was blamed and eaten. Recently, there was a parade in Turkey where some Turks conducted a dance depicting Armenians killing a few Turks, trying to make us look bad and all. Heh, you want US to get on the streets ALL OVER THE WORLD and show what the Turks did to us? People would throw up and be sickened by the mere thought of what you have done. Embarrassing, really. Also, I heard the Turks are making a movie or something to show how the Armenians killed the Turks after the Genocide or something like that. I was in a bus with the radio on, sitting in my seat, when a few people began laughing. A movie to show how bad the Armenians were? Clearly, the moral efficiency isn’t up to standards. It’s just funny and I laugh till now when I think about it. That movie probably never came out. Let’s talk about the important facts …. OH, I forget, all the Turks are pissed off when that happens so they ban YouTube in Turkey, destroy everything Armenian, and think they can hide their past for centuries to come.

Of course, morals are morals and I don’t take them lightly but there is a time and place for everything. When Turks don’t talk about the dangerous facts and simply talk about considerably small facts, it shows how afraid they are, looking for every way to blame us in ANYTHING possible, ANYTHING at all, just to make them look like the victims. It’s embarrassing, really, I feel sorry for them. That’s just low.

(((The sanctity of a life should not be discounted, be it 1 or 1 million.)))

Well, at least 2 million lives were taken, do they count, lol? It’s exactly what we’ve been saying all this time when talking about the Genocide or other issues but does anyone listen? ……. *crickets* ……. Exactly, so let’s stop talking morals. You’re not wrong, I just want you to know when we should talk about morals and what’s really going on, I don’t blame you.

(((There are Turks that feel just as aggrieved as Armenians (ofcourse in much much smaller numbers). Perhaps if the Armenian community demonstrated a little less ambivalence against the scores of innocent Turks murdered at hands of rogue Armenian militia's then you might be able to breakdown the wall of suspicion that a lot of people in Turkey still have.)))

That wall is coming down sooner or later, it’s about time. Don’t worry about that. This isn’t 1915 when innocent people roamed the streets. Times have changed but our relations haven’t, that’s the problem. Turkey can’t hide anything anymore and that’s why everyone’s running around, destroying everything Armenian.

(((Imagine if a shrine were also erected in Yerevan recognizing the attrocities committed by Hunchaks against innocent turkish civilians?)))

You know what, let me put it in this way. What if, God forbid of course, someone came and blew your house and family away, along with many other families as well. You erected a memorial in their honor behind your new house and then killed some Turks out of your anger because they were laughing at you and saying no one ever murdered your family as if it was all a bad dream. After a few decades, Turks begin to blame you for killing those couple of Turks, STILL saying they never killed your family. Then someone offered you in some forum to erect a memorial for all the Turks you killed. Get my point? It’s like if the Jews erect a memorial for all the Germans that died in WWII. It doesn’t even make sense. You don’t really get what’s going on and you haven’t placed your feet in the shoes of Armenians yet or someone that has lost everything. Once you do that, you might hate what the Turks do more then we do.

(((OK probably enough to induce projectile vomiting but no doubt it would give the average turk a moral wake up call.)))

Believe it or not, I’m trying to do something like that but not be making the Turks look like the victims. It’s just a joke even thinking that way. There is a way to do everything and like Steph said, keep the dreaming on and on, day and night, because this would make the Turks even MORE bold. Also, we would be putting up the flag of a country that killed, raped, murdered, humiliated, etc. us. I doubt you would do what you offer us to do.

(((Perhaps they might understand this is less about politics and really about a redressing individual injustices regardless of ethnicity. Just a thought....)))

I like the way you think but my final words are, something you should think about, no matter where or when or what you do, consider the time, place, circumstance, and the people in question, before talking or taking even the smallest course of action. The Turks have done things no sane person would ever do, till today, so take that into consideration. Would those people look at ethnic values? The same values they’ve been going against for almost a century? You don’t see the Turks like we do, you don’t know them like we do, that’s why you can’t imagine what’s going on. They aren’t all demons, hell no, but there are many that would love to wipe us out again and we aren’t stray sheep so you’ll have to think about some other offer, my friend. I didn’t say this in an angry manner either, don’t take it personally, I just want you to see an object or situation for what it is, not for what you want to see.

[Joseph]

Guys, you won't appreciate the irony but Turks use a similar type of argument i.e. the orders for deportations were given to prevent atrocities and subversive activities from murderous Dashnaks etc. Your point about the attacks being smaller and at infrequent scale cannot be argued against however the "moral equivalency" is difficult to swallow. The sanctity of a life should not be discounted, be it 1 or 1 million. There are Turks that feel just as aggrieved as Armenians (ofcourse in much much smaller numbers). Perhaps if the Armenian community demonstrated a little less ambivalence against the scores of innocent Turks murdered at hands of rogue Armenian militia's then you might be able to breakdown the wall of suspicion that a lot of people in Turkey still have. Imagine if a shrine were also erected in Yerevan recognizing the attrocities committed by Hunchaks against innocent turkish civilians? OK probably enough to induce projectile vomiting but no doubt it would give the average turk a moral wake up call. Perhaps they might understand this is less about politics and really about a redressing individual injustices regardless of ethnicity. Just a thought....

I've seen that argument made by Turkey/Turks often and I think this is where Armenians and Turks will always find themselves talking in circles. Indeed, this circular reference works well for those who support the revisionist thesis, as it clouds the history very conveniently and is used on a certain level to defend, uphold and ultimately excuse the murder of well-over a million people. The whole Turkish excuse reminds of that Stalin quote: "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic"

Regarding the moral equivalency question; my meaning is the following- it was wrong for Huncaks to kill Turks but it is an absolute disgrace that Turkey/Turks are unwilling to acknowledge that the wholesale destruction of an almost an entire people; it was wrong for the US to drop the Atom bomb on Japan but it was wrong for Japan to conquer China, Korea, Vietnam and kill millions for over a decade, it was wrong for Soviet forces to murder Germans in Berlin but it was wrong for the Nazis to not only committ a holocaust but to kill millions of Slavs all over Eastern Europe, it was wrong for Tutsis to take revenge on Hutus, but it was wrong for Hutus to slaughter over a million Tutsis in the course of a few months, it was wrong for the Apaches to slaughter Gen. Custer and his forces but it is inexcusable to forget the many millions of native-Americans who were murdered in the United States.

I can sense {though I could be wrong} that you also feel the Turkish counter-argument might be strawman too but nevertheless, you again bring our attention to an arguement that must be addresssed head on by Armenians.

I think Armenians have to come to the following realization about the Turkish point of view:

The whole episode of Armenian being massacred or even that fact that for decades or Armenians were dealt with in a ferocious manner, is omitted from official Turkish history, thus the Turks of today are left with the impression that the Armenians were loyal one day and treacherous the next; that they decided to organize themselves into dealth squads and roam the provinces bent on the destruction of Turks at the behest of some un-holy Christian allinace. If they know anything about Armenians at all, this is certainly it.

More often than not, when Armenians are even mentioned in Turkey whether in works of fiction, non-fiction, etc, it is ussually within this context.

They know nothing about the organization, methods, and events that led to the destuction of the Armenian community so when they happen upon an article, website, etc that conveys anything regarding the Armenian Genocide, their first though is outrage.

Where once there was a large vibrant Armenian { and Assyrian, Greek as well} community within Asia Minor, there is now hardly a trace. Because of that, very few Turks have ever had any positive let alone any, interaction with Armenians.

The further fact that Armenians do not currently inhabit those areas means that the locals need not care what happened and why should they be concerned about the Genocide when ultimately they reaped it rewards in terms of property, business, etc? The ultimate goal of the Turkish Republic is an ethinically homogenous state and having no minorities, especially ones of another religion, suits it just fine. Case closed.

The nationalist/Ataturkist mantra of paranoia and fear of the "other", us versus the world, does not help. Maybe this will change one day.

From the Turkish standpoint, the deaths of even one Turk at the hands of an Armenian is more than just a crime or tragedy, because it is the catalyst and the excuse or even the reason to justify what occured. It does not matter why, how, and who was responsible for entering a disasterous war.

[Edoman]

Ferdi, I suppose only a bonehead Turk would find moral justification in deporting and uprooting all of the Armenian population and send them to the deserts of Syria just because a few of them were so called troublemakers. This is very typical of the inferiority complex that Turks have and they live under this illusion that they are superior to all others and that anybody who does not fit their definition of a “Good Turk” is out to get them. You talk about redressing individual injustices regardless of ethnicity, well I don’t see them redressing anything about the 3000 Kurdish and Armenian villages that were wiped out clean with no trace that they ever existed in the last year and all of the occupants send to live in the slums of Istanbul. Yes, no tears for them aggrieved Turks.
They wanna shrine in Yerevan? Sure, as soon as we build an Genocide memorial park with a wall containing the names of all the victims of Turkish Government Atrocities (Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians) in the middle of Istanbul with the official statement of apology from the Turkish Government written in stone.
Turks have no moral ground to stand on.

[ardakilic]

Ferdi, I suppose only a bonehead Turk would find moral justification in deporting and uprooting all of the Armenian population and send them to the deserts of Syria just because a few of them were so called troublemakers. This is very typical of the inferiority complex that Turks have and they live under this illusion that they are superior to all others and that anybody who does not fit their definition of a “Good Turk” is out to get them. You talk about redressing individual injustices regardless of ethnicity, well I don’t see them redressing anything about the 3000 Kurdish and Armenian villages that were wiped out clean with no trace that they ever existed in the last year and all of the occupants send to live in the slums of Istanbul. Yes, no tears for them aggrieved Turks.
They wanna shrine in Yerevan? Sure, as soon as we build an Genocide memorial park with a wall containing the names of all the victims of Turkish Government Atrocities (Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians) in the middle of Istanbul with the official statement of apology from the Turkish Government written in stone.
Turks have no moral ground to stand on.

Exactly!

When an ethnic group try to win its independence from Ottoman rule, they become rebel and illegal. But what makes Ottoman rule legal? If the so-called "national-independence" is so important (you know, Turks love this word too much), why shouldnot it be important for the others?

[Sako]

All very true, especially Edoman's final line. I think I'll quote.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_Turks have no moral ground to stand on._-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

[imported_ferdi]

"one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic"

Joseph, I beg to differ.

Someone else's death is awful, but my death is a tragedy.

Selfish, yes, but it's about perceptions, not numbers. So I'm not sure if your open to my point. That being, there are a whole bunch of Turks that are closed to 'walking in someone else shoes' (as per Saco's signature) because they believe their ancesters were murdered by Armenian militia's. Without much doubt it would have been horrible to be an Armenian in the Ottoman empire in 1915. I'm not here to pass judgement about that. Nevertheless, you yourself have conceded that attrocities were committed against innocent Turks. Why shouldn't their injustice be recognised, their memories honoured by Armenians? Yes, Armenians suffered disproportionately but this is missing the point. I wasn't comparing who suffered the most, nor did I use that as a justification for the genocide.