Calling all Turks

[imported_ferdi]

"Well, at least you gave an average opinion Ferdi."

Sorry Saco, I didn't realise I was being graded. I'll try to do better :-)


"all that you describe happened AFTER the Genocide, not before."

Perhaps, perhaps not. As you know, Turks have a different opinion about that. I was trying to add some criticism to the sugar coating that many Armenians apply to the attrocities of their own ancestors. They were not all brave freedom fighters, some were blood thirsty murderers intent on revenge on any Turk they could their hands on. Anyway, does the timing excuse the killing of innocents?


" It’s not the fact that Turkey doesn’t accept the Genocide that’s so painful but rather it’s that they try to search for needles in a large haystack, putting forward pathetic arguments, trying to make us look wrong."

I don't think a lot Turks see what I've said as a pathetic argument. I've tried to give you different perspective that's all. If you're so quick to dismiss it, then you will have missed an opportunity into gaining an opposing insight.


"Well, at least 2 million lives were taken, do they count, lol? "

Ofcourse they do but I'm very concerned by your statement. The frustrating thing is that you guys are very inconsistent with your numbers and it makes people like me i.e. a Turk that accepts the reality of the genocide, unable to define the parameters between truth and fiction. Prove 2 million. If you can't then don't then pluck figures out of the air. Not even credible historians quote figures like that. Don't be offended, I'm not saying it takes a certain quota to qualify as a genocide but don't make the job harder by taking a creative license. A Turk would be thinking, well if there stretching the truth about this, what else are they making up to get maximum sympathy or political concessions.




"Also, we would be putting up the flag of a country that killed, raped, murdered, humiliated, etc. us. I doubt you would do what you offer us to do."

I don't think I said 'flag'. I alluded to the idea that a shrine or memorial be dedicated to innocent Turks (non combatants) killed as well. It that such a grotesque idea?




"there are many that would love to wipe us out again and we aren’t stray sheep so you’ll have to think about some other offer, my friend."

That's nonsense. Don't hold onto such a warped mindset. It's simply false.

[imported_ferdi]

[QUOTE=Edoman;30511]
They wanna shrine in Yerevan? Sure, as soon as we build an Genocide memorial park with a wall containing the names of all the victims of Turkish Government Atrocities (Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians) in the middle of Istanbul with the official statement of apology from the Turkish Government written in stone.
QUOTE]


Your idea is not that farfetched. A memorial park in both Turkey and Yerevan for ALL may be possible one day. I personally would not object. However an apology? Perhaps a statement of regret may be more achievable. One can only live in hope, I suppose.

But just out of curiosity, does a database of the names of the victims exist or has any organization actually attempted to compile one? Obviously it could never be a complete list but nevertheless it would personalise those deceased rather than raw statistics.

[Steph]

Joseph, I beg to differ.

Someone else's death is awful, but my death is a tragedy.

Selfish, yes, but it's about perceptions, not numbers. So I'm not sure if your open to my point. That being, there are a whole bunch of Turks that are closed to 'walking in someone else shoes' (as per Saco's signature) because they believe their ancesters were murdered by Armenian militia's. Without much doubt it would have been horrible to be an Armenian in the Ottoman empire in 1915. I'm not here to pass judgement about that. Nevertheless, you yourself have conceded that attrocities were committed against innocent Turks. Why shouldn't their injustice be recognised, their memories honoured by Armenians? Yes, Armenians suffered disproportionately but this is missing the point. I wasn't comparing who suffered the most, nor did I use that as a justification for the genocide.

Atrocities have been committed during wars since time immemorial, by all sides in conflict, however the systematic eradication of an entire nation,it's culture, it's history and legacy,decided by plan and foresight around smoky tables, is genocide.
Atrocities committed in the heat of battle are still atrocities but pale in comparison to the wickedness perpetrated by the ottomans and young turks against their Christian subjects.
Genocide is a crime against humanity and against all normal human sensitivites, atrocities, such as you complain of, are war crimes,however the two are incomparable.
One is premeditated, the other generally not.
If you believe that Armenia should raise monuments to turks who died at Armenian hands, I suggest a pro-rata raising in turkey of monuments commemorating Armenian and other Christians killed by turks since 1895 to present. Unfortunately there isn't enough stone in turkey.

[Joseph]

Atrocities have been committed during wars since time immemorial, by all sides in conflict, however the systematic eradication of an entire nation,it's culture, it's history and legacy,decided by plan and foresight around smoky tables, is genocide.
Atrocities committed in the heat of battle are still atrocities but pale in comparison to the wickedness perpetrated by the ottomans and young turks against their Christian subjects.
Genocide is a crime against humanity and against all normal human sensitivites, atrocities, such as you complain of, are war crimes,however the two are incomparable.
One is premeditated, the other generally not.
If you believe that Armenia should raise monuments to turks who died at Armenian hands, I suggest a pro-rata raising in turkey of monuments commemorating Armenian and other Christians killed by turks since 1895 to present. Unfortunately there isn't enough stone in turkey.

Well stated.

[Sako]

Someone else's death is awful, but my death is a tragedy.

This is only because someone cannot put his/her feet in someone else’s shoes. What if you DIDN’T die, then other deaths weren’t a tragedy, they were just awful? We can say the same about the hunchuks killing the Turks then if we go with your strategy. Also, a million people died, which is more awful, yours or theirs? I'd rather die then ever compare my death to the Genocide. What you are saying is selfish, truly. I get what you mean but that isn't significant here in this case.

Selfish, yes, but it's about perceptions, not numbers.

A perception many don’t have. Tell this to Turks who COMPLETELY deny the Genocide happened as if they weren’t the ones that tried to annihilate an entire race. Their perceptions come almost mechanically because of their government but that is no excuse. If someone jumps off a cliff, you don’t have to follow him.

So I'm not sure if you’re open to my point. That being, there are a whole bunch of Turks that are closed to 'walking in someone else shoes' (as per Saco's signature) because they believe their ancesters were murdered by Armenian militia's.

And that’s what they SHOULD know and believe but not because we were heartless and loved what we did! We don’t hide what happened, and we never will but the Turks have become so blindly bold that they think they can hide a huge part of history. Anyone can walk in someone else’s shoes; don’t doubt that, it’s a matter of understanding. You think we feel absolutely great for killing all those Turks? But there are Turks who would do it all again. In the past, you know how many Turks were saved by Armenians, even in 1915? And the fact is, the Turks are to blame for the fact that people can’t understand our pain or anything like that because they annihilated almost all the Armenians without a single tear and then tried to hide it and not because we don’t give them a chance.

We see what’s going on so you don’t see us blindly forgiving everyone. Frankly speaking, the Turks aren’t even giving us a chance or reason to forgive so your proposal should be offered to Turks but you don’t. Why? Because they’ll bombard you.

Without much doubt it would have been horrible to be an Armenian in the Ottoman empire in 1915. I'm not here to pass judgement about that. Nevertheless, you yourself have conceded that attrocities were committed against innocent Turks. Why shouldn't their injustice be recognised, their memories honoured by Armenians?

Because you didn’t give us a chance. What happened continues till today, Ferdi, believe it or not, and we have to create a memorial for Turks who kill us indirectly till today? Open your eyes see what you’re asking. In my heart, in our hearts, we feel sorrow, we feel bad for anything we did and of course innocent lives were taken, that’s a tragedy and is very sad but what led to that? No one accepts THAT so forget about talking about other facts when the source of all the problems lies in the air rather on paper in pen.

Yes, Armenians suffered disproportionately but this is missing the point.

What’s missing the point? Or rather … WHO’S missing the point? The Turks have been avoiding everything and now try to make us accept the fact that we killed some of their own people? I feel disgusted saying this, I wouldn’t hurt an ant, but what goes around comes around, Ferdi.

I wasn't comparing who suffered the most, nor did I use that as a justification for the genocide.

But you asked us to do something that goes against what you just said. It goes against your intentions. What’s better, to clean the lake or clean a few rocks around the lake? The Genocide is the lake and if that issue is taken care of, everything else will come next and will in many cases be cleaned and recognized automatically. It’s an algorithm and Turkey has been acting like a turkey in many cases and it simply shows how desperate they are. I don’t hate Turks, I see the good and bad everywhere, but one or the other is always more prominent. We know who we face and that’s we are careful. We have been living with them for centuries, and that’s why we NEVER let our guard down just like Turkey doesn’t.

There is only one solution, to accept the Genocide, and sooner or later, that’s going to happen, and the Turks know that. Inside, even they can’t believe how men could enter a village and rape women, kill children heartlessly, hang men, cut the breasts off of women, etc. It’s unbelievable, even for Turks, and that’s why there is only one solution to this problem. To accept and move on or else, Turkey might go too far down the rabbit hole. Or maybe, the Turks already have.

[Sako]

Perhaps, perhaps not. As you know, Turks have a different opinion about that. I was trying to add some criticism to the sugar coating that many Armenians apply to the attrocities of their own ancestors. They were not all brave freedom fighters, some were blood thirsty murderers intent on revenge on any Turk they could their hands on. Anyway, does the timing excuse the killing of innocents?

No one is saying we were angels from heaven, stop making this go in circles. I'm saying the source was Turkey and of course Turks have different opinions, they always have their famous opinions, that's a part of our everyday lives already. The problem is you put actions into two categories, right and wrong. You forget why they happened or how they happened. You don't fully appreciate the word Genocide, I can see that clearly. Or maybe you do but you don't appreciate what that can do to a person.

I don't think a lot Turks see what I've said as a pathetic argument. I've tried to give you different perspective that's all. If you're so quick to dismiss it, then you will have missed an opportunity into gaining an opposing insight.

You really don't want to see what I'm saying. YOU aren't wrong, the fact that Turkey puts forward issues that are secondary instead of taking care of the primary problem is wrong. They say the Genocide didn't happen but want to fix other issues. It won't happen very easily or maybe at all, they can keep dreaming. I talk from a political and moral point of view.

"Well, at least 2 million lives were taken, do they count, lol? "

Ofcourse they do but I'm very concerned by your statement. The frustrating thing is that you guys are very inconsistent with your numbers and it makes people like me i.e. a Turk that accepts the reality of the genocide, unable to define the parameters between truth and fiction. Prove 2 million. If you can't then don't then pluck figures out of the air. Not even credible historians quote figures like that. Don't be offended, I'm not saying it takes a certain quota to qualify as a genocide but don't make the job harder by taking a creative license. A Turk would be thinking, well if there stretching the truth about this, what else are they making up to get maximum sympathy or political concessions.

Bro, Turkey has been making up stories for almost a century so let the Turks judge that first. Would saying the RIGHT number make you feel better? I say two million because many were burned away, buried, thrown in lakes, etc. These deaths weren't all counted. So overall? It comes around 2 million. But forgive me, I don't think this is the case, do Turks think that Armenians stretch it when they say 1.5 million Armenians were murdered and killed? Well, if they do, they still haven't accepted the Genocide. Or nonetheless, why do you only think about the people lost. Our entire country was wiped out almost along with its culture, etc. Is that counted? Even IF something was stretched, there is so much proof and if someone still doesn't accept the Genocide, that's their problem. What we say will just fall on deaf ears. You aren't wrong and I know my words seem steamed but trust me, I'm not that way, I don't hate Turks. I'm making something to bury that barrier we have between each other so don't imagine that I hate everyone. I want you to see what I'm saying.

I don't think I said 'flag'. I alluded to the idea that a shrine or memorial be dedicated to innocent Turks (non combatants) killed as well. It that such a grotesque idea?

It's not a grotesque idea, it's great, I love that idea, but I want you to understand what's stopping it from working. And yes, putting up a Turkish memorial IS putting up the Turkish flag. The people are the flag, they are Turkish so that means we get into a indirect relationship with Turks. I love that idea but I don't think you appreciate the gravity of the situation. People don't wanna know anything about the Turks for what they did and are doing today so your memorial idea is a long term, maybe very, idea. This all depends on Turkey though, your idea could work even today.

That's nonsense. Don't hold onto such a warped mindset. It's simply false.

I only say what I see, Ferdi. They destroy everything Armenian and they assacinate Armenian people. There are extremists everywhere, Turkey is not the first, nor the last. They have shown hatred before and after the Genocide. You may not kill but stop talking for everyone else. I know many Armenians loathe Turks, I'm not one of them but I don't hide that many hate Turks and would kill them if they said something wrong. The situation between Turkey and Armenia hangs from a thin thread, one wrong move means war, appreciate that and then you'll understand what's going on. I could tell you many things going on right now as we speak and what Turks do on the borders, trying to make us go to war with them, but would it help? That's why we need to talk about what's important, not things that happened afterwards. Forget about stories, the facts are sitting here. I rest my case. I say this again, I respect Turks and I know many and they are great people that I could support and do till now so don't think I'm the one here not thinking reasonable.

[Edoman]

However an apology? Perhaps a statement of regret may be more achievable. One can only live in hope, I suppose.

The only regret Turkish government has is that they couldn’t finish the Job. They underestimate the Armenian spirit. Turkey needs to learn who we the Armenians are and we are no longer defenseless. We are not going to play your numbering game, if the truth hurts then deal with it. It is obvious that your government that has been deceiving their own people will never recognize any wrong doing of any kind so we are left with no other choice but to force it out of them.
We know who the real Turks are Ferdi, like the ones in Trabzon. We also remember what you did to the Armenian children there.
I suggest you grab a copy of Article 301 and measure your “Turkish Skull” with it if you haven't already . it will help you understand who you are.

[Sako]

I guess I said the same thing, just in a nicer way, lol. Hope you get the point now, Ferdi. No one is bombarding you here either. I don't want you to have the impression that Armenians are all here to prove your ass wrong with mean words and almost blame YOU for the genocide. Many Turks think Armenians don't have ears and simply hear what they want to hear. The fact is, you or anyone else didn't say anything new. Your offer is good but it's not the time yet. Turks would think we were wrong the whole time and now we began to see reason by putting up a memorial for them. It would seem even funny somehow. There are millions of things to think about before even making one step right now so final words? Yes, putting up a memorial right now would make things worse, not better. Plus, a person must think about his neighborhood before thinking about someone elses neighborhood, it's life. Turkey hasn't taken one step forward but has instead taken many back.

And considering Edoman's last line, he rather means you'll understand who you live with and under in your country rather then who you are. Forgive me if I'm mistaken.

[Edoman]

If Turkey is not ready to recognize the Armenian Genocide, maybe it can start protecting and renovating Armenian sacred sites like cathedrals, cemeteries, and places of memory that are the only proof that a historic Armenia once existed in what is today Turkey. Do you know what kind of a positive effect that would have on the Armenian people?

Perhaps the Armenian Diaspora can establish more ties with progressive people in Turkey and tell them that even though we will never forget the Armenian Genocide, we will also never forget the kindness of those Turks who helped us during the Genocide where some of you even paid with their lives. The path to reconciliation is impossible without acknowledging the past, but admitting realities can start with little things such as accepting that Armenians and Turks are human beings who have lived together for hundreds of years, that we both share values of justice, fairness, hospitality and family.

Look at our young generation Turkey, guys like Saco posting on this website. There are many like him and he has Turkish counterparts in Turkey. It is time, it will be better for Turkey to solve this with honor and respect rather than letting the Armenians (who will eventually force it out of you with the support of the free world) to finish it. Think about the future of both of our next generation.
Reconciliation moves like I have said might even get you into the EU.

[imported_ferdi]

If Turkey is not ready to recognize the Armenian Genocide, maybe it can start protecting and renovating Armenian sacred sites like cathedrals, cemeteries, and places of memory that are the only proof that a historic Armenia once existed in what is today Turkey. Do you know what kind of a positive effect that would have on the Armenian people?

Perhaps the Armenian Diaspora can establish more ties with progressive people in Turkey and tell them that even though we will never forget the Armenian Genocide, we will also never forget the kindness of those Turks who helped us during the Genocide where some of you even paid with their lives. The path to reconciliation is impossible without acknowledging the past, but admitting realities can start with little things such as accepting that Armenians and Turks are human beings who have lived together for hundreds of years, that we both share values of justice, fairness, hospitality and family.

Look at our young generation Turkey, guys like Saco posting on this website. There are many like him and he has Turkish counterparts in Turkey. It is time, it will be better for Turkey to solve this with honor and respect rather than letting the Armenians (who will eventually force it out of you with the support of the free world) to finish it. Think about the future of both of our next generation.
Reconciliation moves like I have said might even get you into the EU.

Excellent comments Edoman. Taking small steps and doing the things we should be doing anyway (regardless of the EU) like protecting cultural and religious sites, facilitating student/sports exchange programs and anything else that increases interaction between people is a great way for breaking down barriers of animosity and historical enmity.