Calling all Turks

[imported_ferdi]

If you believe that Armenia should raise monuments to turks who died at Armenian hands, I suggest a pro-rata raising in turkey of monuments commemorating Armenian and other Christians killed by turks since 1895 to present. Unfortunately there isn't enough stone in turkey.

This is a classic politicians response i.e. very populist, sounds good for about a minute, but lacks any real substance and achieves zero outcome. Maintain the rage Steph, it will get you far.

[imported_ferdi]

I guess I said the same thing, just in a nicer way, lol. Hope you get the point now, Ferdi. No one is bombarding you here either. I don't want you to have the impression that Armenians are all here to prove your ass wrong with mean words and almost blame YOU for the genocide. Many Turks think Armenians don't have ears and simply hear what they want to hear. The fact is, you or anyone else didn't say anything new. Your offer is good but it's not the time yet. Turks would think we were wrong the whole time and now we began to see reason by putting up a memorial for them. It would seem even funny somehow. There are millions of things to think about before even making one step right now so final words? Yes, putting up a memorial right now would make things worse, not better. Plus, a person must think about his neighborhood before thinking about someone elses neighborhood, it's life. Turkey hasn't taken one step forward but has instead taken many back.

And considering Edoman's last line, he rather means you'll understand who you live with and under in your country rather then who you are. Forgive me if I'm mistaken.

I apologize if I’m becoming a bit repetitive, but the point I was trying to make was that if you want to break the barriers between ordinary Turks and Armenians then you need to bring this debate to individual sufferings first. Human nature dictates that we identify with the pain and suffering of individuals i.e. family, friends, neighbors and people of the same religion as us not as collective nations. A classic example was the earthquake diplomacy between Greece and Turkey not that long ago. It was only when Greeks or Turks individually identified with the suffering of their neighbor and thought these people are not the ogres we thought they were, did they react with compassion and assistance. That was what I mean to say previously about somebody else’s death being awful but my death being a tragedy. The pain of those that you can relate to is always amplified compared to the ‘other’. So collectively Turks will always attempt to dilute the sufferings of Armenians, and VICE VERSA as many of you have proven to me.

Unfortunately, this issue has become a case of national honor for both Turks and Armenians. As I explained, most Turks will not take step forward to redress past Armenian sufferings because they also feel aggrieved. The national conscious says if we didn’t take certain actions then we would have been decimated. We would have suffered had we not done what we did. That’s the reality, whether you think it’s wrong, paranoid or whatever. We would have to get people to identify with the individual sufferings to move beyond this well established mindset.

Also I don’t think you should overstate the threat i.e. Turkey going down the “rabbit hole”. Even if every nation on earth recognized the AG, is there a single government in the world that places legal culpability at the feet of the current Turkish government? And even if Obama makes a public declaration then what? There may be a moral responsibility but legally I don’t think a case against the Republic of Turkey formed in 1923 would be successful. I’ve read of some things like, oh Turkey is responsible as the successor state, Armenia didn’t sign the Lausanne Treaty, some Armenians have old title deeds etc but these are all drawing a very long bow if you knew how international law worked.

[Alexandros]

I apologize if I’m becoming a bit repetitive, but the point I was trying to make was that if you want to break the barriers between ordinary Turks and Armenians then you need to bring this debate to individual sufferings first. Human nature dictates that we identify with the pain and suffering of individuals i.e. family, friends, neighbors and people of the same religion as us not as collective nations. A classic example was the earthquake diplomacy between Greece and Turkey not that long ago. It was only when Greeks or Turks individually identified with the suffering of their neighbor and thought these people are not the ogres we thought they were, did they react with compassion and assistance. That was what I mean to say previously about somebody else’s death being awful but my death being a tragedy. The pain of those that you can relate to is always amplified compared to the ‘other’. So collectively Turks will always attempt to dilute the sufferings of Armenians, and VICE VERSA as many of you have proven to me.

Unfortunately, this issue has become a case of national honor for both Turks and Armenians. As I explained, most Turks will not take step forward to redress past Armenian sufferings because they also feel aggrieved. The national conscious says if we didn’t take certain actions then we would have been decimated. We would have suffered had we not done what we did. That’s the reality, whether you think it’s wrong, paranoid or whatever. We would have to get people to identify with the individual sufferings to move beyond this well established mindset.

Also I don’t think you should overstate the threat i.e. Turkey going down the “rabbit hole”. Even if every nation on earth recognized the AG, is there a single government in the world that places legal culpability at the feet of the current Turkish government? And even if Obama makes a public declaration then what? There may be a moral responsibility but legally I don’t think a case against the Republic of Turkey formed in 1923 would be successful. I’ve read of some things like, oh Turkey is responsible as the successor state, Armenia didn’t sign the Lausanne Treaty, some Armenians have old title deeds etc but these are all drawing a very long bow if you knew how international law worked.

A classic example was the earthquake diplomacy between Greece and Turkey not that long ago. It was only when Greeks or Turks individually identified with the suffering of their neighbor and thought these people are not the ogres we thought they were, did they react with compassion and assistance. That was what I mean to say previously about somebody else’s death being awful but my death being a tragedy. The pain of those that you can relate to is always amplified compared to the ‘other’. So collectively Turks will always attempt to dilute the sufferings of Armenians, and VICE VERSA as many of you have proven to me.

Well, the sad thing is that Turkey turned down offer of Armenian aid.

Archive for Tuesday, August 24, 1999
Turkey Turns Down Offer of Armenian Aid
By Richard Boudreaux
August 24, 1999 in print edition A-11

Hours after Turkey’s massive earthquake last week, the government of Armenia readied a team of 100 disaster specialists and loaded 10 trucks with rescue and relief supplies for the stricken zone less than a day’s drive away.

Aside from proximity, Armenia offered expertise gained from its own disaster in December 1988–when a magnitude 6.9 quake killed 25,000 people. The Rapid Deployment Unit, subsequently formed by the Armenian Emergency Situations Directorate, has saved the lives of quake victims in Iran and China.

But as more than 2,000 relief workers converged on Turkey from 51 countries, Armenia’s elite rescuers waited for a go-ahead. And waited. Then on Saturday, Turkey informed Armenia that it had plenty of help already and did not need more.

The real reason for the snub, not stated openly but widely understood in both countries, is Turkey’s unwillingness to move toward normal diplomatic and trade relations with its eastern neighbor.

While Turkey has welcomed blood donations, rescue teams and other quake aid from rival Greece, Armenia is a different story. Turkish-Armenian relations remain poisoned by the massacres of Armenians by the Ottoman government in 1915 and the more recent conflict between Armenians and Turkey’s ethnic cousins in Azerbaijan.

Armenian officials said Monday that Turkey’s decision frustrated a humanitarian impulse and wasted a chance to improve relations. Armenian officials said the aid offer still stood.

“Grief has no borders,” said Ara Papyan, Armenia’s Foreign Ministry spokesman. “We know quite well what it means for you when the entire world wants to help you.”

Full article here

Another sad thing is that Turkey stopped US humanitarian assistance from reaching Armenia in the aftermath of the devastating earthquake of 1988.

** Turkey continues its economic blockade of neighboring Armenia. For over a decade, Turkey has forbidden US humanitarian assistance from traveling to Armenia via Turkish airspace. Turkey even stopped US humanitarian assistance from reaching Armenia in the aftermath of the devastating earthquake of 1988. It was for this reason that the United States Congress enacted the Humanitarian Aid Corridor Act, prohibiting US assistance to any country which blocks US humanitarian aid from reaching a third country. This law applied only to Turkey, the sole country that has blocked US humanitarian aid.

Link

So please spare us the BS Ferdi.

[Steph]

This is a classic politicians response i.e. very populist, sounds good for about a minute, but lacks any real substance and achieves zero outcome. Maintain the rage Steph, it will get you far.

Ferdi,
I have no rage and am certainly no politician, just a regular guy who has seen too many posts such as yours asking for Armenian penance for crimes against turks. Heard too many turkish denials, seen too many turkish games. Your posts flit from branch to branch dependent on which way you feel the wind is blowing but your gut instinct is that the Genocide was a justified retaliation against rebellious kaffirs. Why else would you suggest an idea as insane as a memorial to turkish dead in Yerevan?
turks seem to have a genetic DNA fault which leaves them with : over sensitive skin which thickens immediately upon discussion. Selective amnesia on a national scale, selective morals.Should I go on ?

[ardakilic]

turks seem to have a genetic DNA fault which leaves them with : over sensitive skin which thickens immediately upon discussion. Selective amnesia on a national scale, selective morals.Should I go on ?

Regardless of the discussion and the sides and their arguments, just to state something in more logical way, i have to say this:

turks seem to have a genetic DNA fault is a genetic fallacy and smells "unchangable essences" which may drive us something like racism or any other illogical and inhumane ways.

Just to make a caution!

[Sako]

Ferdi, I hope you see what Steph is saying. We're not here to blame you or make you feel bad. You have a bright mind and all but you haven't felt what it's like to lose almost your entire country. You don't know what it's like to see your mother raped and killed in front of your eyes, you don't know what it's like to see your sisters entering a hut and coming out naked, you don't know what it's like to see your brothers and friends hanged, killed, cut up into peices, drowned, etc.

You want me to go over individual deaths like you said? You will go crazy by the time I'm done and you hear all the true proven facts I place before you. You might put on a bomb and blow up a Turkish embassy for all I know because you wouldn't be able to even imagine how your people could do all that. So imagine how patient we are. Words and all will always be there but considering Armenia politically, we haven't taken really major steps towards Turkey. On the borders, the Turks always fire pointless shots, they always try to start something, this is a sign of how MUCH a country has gone down the rabbit hole. I'll say it again because they really have. This isn't a threat, it's a situation that Turks have put themselves into.

You talk about politics when you don't understand these simple facts. Take your banner and go start talking with Turks, then you'll get an idea of what's going on. Peace will not come very easily, and Turkey is careful not to make a wrong move but nevertheless, destroy everything Armenian. Turkey has the stupidest politics revolving within it and for that reason, hasty decisions cannot be made. They are, one word, unstable, and even way before the Genocide. I don't understand, it doesn't fit into my head how a few Generals could make the decision to wipe out all the Armenians. How they felt about that. Even Turks can't and think it couldn't have happened for that reason.

Turkey hasn't taken one step forward, NOT ONE, and neither will we. We're not going to spoon feed a country that doesn't want to move on and we won't co-operate like we've been friends for years either because the Turks took away all that we love and still take steps against us, very proudly too, I'll tell ya. Armenians went to an ancient church in Turkey and you know what happened after they burnt the candles and left? The Turkish kids began to put away the candles as fast as they could like it was a race. Turkish parent's put this into the heads of their children that we are all just making up xxxx and that we are just ignorant to face facts. They Christians most of the time, they hate who we are, they hate how we could be more then they were in many fields, and their hate is felt and smelt from kilometers away and it smells real bad.

These are not angry words, these are simple facts that aren't hard to understand. All the same, though, Ferdi, we have every right to be angry and even be a bit harsh and Turkey has no right to say we're wrong or try to make us feel bad for it. There is a way to bring down a fire but instead Turks throw MORE gasoline on it. They don't even understand that simple fact and from what I see, even you're having a bit of a moment here so I can imagine how difficult it would be making a Turk who doesn't believe in the Genocide understand all I said. Anything that has brought us to the current state is mostly Turkey's fault although we have a few minor faults as well, we all do, but that can't even be compared mentally to what Turks have done and still do. Your steps aren't very practical right now, maybe in the future.

[imported_ferdi]

Ferdi,
I have no rage and am certainly no politician, just a regular guy who has seen too many posts such as yours asking for Armenian penance for crimes against turks. Heard too many turkish denials, seen too many turkish games. Your posts flit from branch to branch dependent on which way you feel the wind is blowing but your gut instinct is that the Genocide was a justified retaliation against rebellious kaffirs. Why else would you suggest an idea as insane as a memorial to turkish dead in Yerevan?
turks seem to have a genetic DNA fault which leaves them with : over sensitive skin which thickens immediately upon discussion. Selective amnesia on a national scale, selective morals.Should I go on ?

I reject your assertions, and just to eliminate any doubt I’ve never justified the genocide (implicitly or explicitly). The suggestion for the memorial in Yerevan was not to be erected in isolation. Sometimes you have to push the boundaries to get people thinking and moving.

Nevertheless, it is apparent that unless one subscribes to your black and white version of events you blast them with a racist tirade. Did it ever cross your mind that there may also be many good-willed Turks reading this forum turned away by your diatribe? To borrow a football analogy, I think you’ve definitely scored an own goal.

[imported_ferdi]

Ferdi, I hope you see what Steph is saying. We're not here to blame you or make you feel bad. You have a bright mind and all but you haven't felt what it's like to lose almost your entire country. You don't know what it's like to see your mother raped and killed in front of your eyes, you don't know what it's like to see your sisters entering a hut and coming out naked, you don't know what it's like to see your brothers and friends hanged, killed, cut up into peices, drowned, etc.

You want me to go over individual deaths like you said? You will go crazy by the time I'm done and you hear all the true proven facts I place before you. You might put on a bomb and blow up a Turkish embassy for all I know because you wouldn't be able to even imagine how your people could do all that. So imagine how patient we are. Words and all will always be there but considering Armenia politically, we haven't taken really major steps towards Turkey. On the borders, the Turks always fire pointless shots, they always try to start something, this is a sign of how MUCH a country has gone down the rabbit hole. I'll say it again because they really have. This isn't a threat, it's a situation that Turks have put themselves into.

You talk about politics when you don't understand these simple facts. Take your banner and go start talking with Turks, then you'll get an idea of what's going on. Peace will not come very easily, and Turkey is careful not to make a wrong move but nevertheless, destroy everything Armenian. Turkey has the stupidest politics revolving within it and for that reason, hasty decisions cannot be made. They are, one word, unstable, and even way before the Genocide. I don't understand, it doesn't fit into my head how a few Generals could make the decision to wipe out all the Armenians. How they felt about that. Even Turks can't and think it couldn't have happened for that reason.

Turkey hasn't taken one step forward, NOT ONE, and neither will we. We're not going to spoon feed a country that doesn't want to move on and we won't co-operate like we've been friends for years either because the Turks took away all that we love and still take steps against us, very proudly too, I'll tell ya. Armenians went to an ancient church in Turkey and you know what happened after they burnt the candles and left? The Turkish kids began to put away the candles as fast as they could like it was a race. Turkish parent's put this into the heads of their children that we are all just making up xxxx and that we are just ignorant to face facts. They Christians most of the time, they hate who we are, they hate how we could be more then they were in many fields, and their hate is felt and smelt from kilometers away and it smells real bad.

These are not angry words, these are simple facts that aren't hard to understand. All the same, though, Ferdi, we have every right to be angry and even be a bit harsh and Turkey has no right to say we're wrong or try to make us feel bad for it. There is a way to bring down a fire but instead Turks throw MORE gasoline on it. They don't even understand that simple fact and from what I see, even you're having a bit of a moment here so I can imagine how difficult it would be making a Turk who doesn't believe in the Genocide understand all I said. Anything that has brought us to the current state is mostly Turkey's fault although we have a few minor faults as well, we all do, but that can't even be compared mentally to what Turks have done and still do. Your steps aren't very practical right now, maybe in the future.

Saco, thanks. Your right, I don't know what it means to feel those things. But I will definitely ponder some your thoughts and I hope you don't stay too angry for long. And although you may be justified in your feelings, remember that anger is an emotion that is all-consuming and self-defeating in the long run.

I'll break for a while, but I look forward to browsing into your project I read somewhere in another thread, you obviously have a very creative mind. Just as a parting tip, don't confuse your own feelings with what you have seen on an Atom Egoyan movie or heard from someone else. These feelings are not your own, but something you have inherited (or some may say burdened with).

[anila]

I reject your assertions, and just to eliminate any doubt I’ve never justified the genocide (implicitly or explicitly). The suggestion for the memorial in Yerevan was not to be erected in isolation. Sometimes you have to push the boundaries to get people thinking and moving.

Nevertheless, it is apparent that unless one subscribes to your black and white version of events you blast them with a racist tirade. Did it ever cross your mind that there may also be many good-willed Turks reading this forum turned away by your diatribe? To borrow a football analogy, I think you’ve definitely scored an own goal.

Your circular comments do nothing but dilute the seriousness of the issue at hand. Suggesting that a memorial be put up for Turkish losses, with the Elephant-of-Genocide in the room so to speak, unaddressed by its perpetrators for almost a century, is like demanding compensation for losing a hairpin in a fire you started.

You might be sincere in your approach to the genocide. However, you are simply not letting go; this IS a Black and White issue. Genocide is a crime of the highest order and its prevention or acknowledgment should come without compromise. What might seem like a diatribe to you is a call for simple moral decency. Alas, as many people say, the group of people that Armenians (and minorities in Turkey) should be most scared of is those who accept the historicity of the Genocide but start generating petty counter-claims that will in time harden into a "yes we did it and they deserved it attitude" (which might translate into similar actions against other minorities.)

One thing I would like to add: It is also obvious, from the goal analogy and the memorial-haggling, that you are seeing this issue almost purely diplomatically. For Turkey and Turks, this IS a diplomatic issue and it will remain so as long as newspapers and public officials blurt out their Sevres-syndrome ridden sensationalism with every AG legislation passed in a faraway land. Perhaps, if you could think about the moral aspect of this issue, which I am sure you will claim to have been doing, the insensitivity of your outside-the-box plans will be apparent.

(Imagine what the world would be like if Armenians put up a memorial for Turks killed, lowering the moral and statistical threshold for memorials. Would white people sleep soundly, without memorials from their slave aggressors; or Germans, without theirs from Jews; or the French, without theirs from Algerians; or the British, without theirs from India; or Men, without theirs from Women?)

[anila]

These feelings are not your own, but something you have inherited (or some may say burdened with).

To a Turk who grew up in an education system that was 100% free, unadulterated by inherited dogmas and fully supportive of creative minds and historical inquiry, not to speak of the general Turkish culture of enlightenment, the sweet irony of this quote is delicious.