Post Turkish, Armenian and Greek music in this thread!

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Você sabe muito bem. (I hope that translated correctly)

Well when I think a bit, actually you could say; "Tu sabes muito bem"
That would be less formal I personaly prefer "Tu" to "Voce" when I am with friends. Arent we?

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Arda and Vahe, I think we are having trouble about terminologies. What do you mean by monadic? Do you mean monophonic?

look in to the dictionary...

[Sako]

Could you rephrase your question on couple of pages? I didn’t get it.

You said ...

I do not know how they can offend any of our FRIENDS

Were you talking about the Turks or Armenians?

[may]

look in to the dictionary...

Oh, right! How can I skip that! Thanks VaheTheWise, I have never thought of doing that... Searching on internet, dictionary, googleing it! Yeah! What a wise response! I opened my eyes to the real world!

But, even when I do what you recommend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(music)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphony

And what I understood (of course as much as my intelligence allowed me) it is not possible to say "x music is monadic, y music is polyphonic" as they are opposite definitions.

I thought this is a "discussion" forum, and people can ask questions. And especially if the question is more about a clarification rather than a definition, I thought questions will be responded by answers.

Please, VaheTheWise, help me, do not make me look it up in a useless dictionaries, enlighten me with your wisdom and your deepless knowledge about music that I cannot access in a dictionary.

[may]

I've heard this before and I just want to clear this up. We may have lived very close to each other but that doesn't mean that Turks and Armenians were completely alike. Both our cultures lived side by side but the differences could be seen clearly, we were both alike but very different at the same time. The same goes for our music and ways of living. So when you say we lived together for a long time, that doesn't play a very, very major role. We learned from each other but we remained Armenians and Turks remained Turks (I'm not saying this in a bad way of course). My point is that you can't simply say Armenian and Turkish music is alike because we lived together for so long.

Saco, my friend, I never thought what I wrote would require such a long response as yours Probably my response will be a longer one compared to what it should be.

Unfortunately, you put some words to my mouth to iterate on what you want to say. Now I am not talking about this music thread or you specifically, so don't take it completely personal (if you want to take anything personal, you are one of the people I liked discussing so far, take this one ):

I really do not want to know if someone heard what I said before. I don't want what I said to be interpreted within what "ordinary Turk" thinks, what another person said in whatever context. I want to be treated individually, for what I said, in whatever context I said. If someone had things to say before but could not mention due to various reasons, I am not the person to be addressed for the unmade speech. A fair request, I believe.

I NEVER said Armenians and Turks are COMPLETELY alike. I never intend to homogenize the people living in Anatolia. I even think there are many different cultures attitudes (and as a consequence different musical styles) among the "Turks" in Turkey. And I believe I made myself pretty clear that my observation about being alike may be biased because I came up the most of the Armenian music I listened while I was searching for music that is in accordance with my musical taste. I have no idea about Armenian religious music sounds like, or pop music, or instruments that are not common with Turkish. I do not expect Armenians to be in love with Turkish music (if there is a single type of it) just as not expecting myself to love whatever from Armenian.

Still, having many common words between Indian and Turkish (because of Persian influence on both), or feeling Flamenco vocals closer to Turkish compared to other European music styles (due to Arabic influence on both) makes me think that if the influence is so apparent even very very indirectly, Turkish and Armenian music should be more alike than we think. Cultural interactions are based on many factors such as language, religion etc. But geography is a very important aspect because it brings the same climate, same troubles with many economic activities etc along with neighborhood relations. And if the similarity of the music is for any reason, it is because Armenians and Turkish lived in the same geography for a long time. That's why, even I did not know System of a Down members were Armenian, I could still guess they have connections with Middle East, Anatolia because of their melodies and vocal styles in some of their songs. And that's why they are popular in Turkey although some of their fans will be terrorized to hear Armenian genocide. But since they do not understand or care about the lyrics, they love the group because of the minor similarities we are discussing here.

I want to return to why I started this "being alike" discussion. It is very important because when the discussion is stripped off the context it may lead to nonsense claims. I saw it in this forum many times. It was a response to Edoman's post, because he liked one of the songs that I posted and he said "normally he cannot stand" Turkish music. That expression sounded odd to me because liking or not liking is something. But I thought the similarities (minor or major) could prevent us from saying "I cannot stand" the music of the other. To clarify more, I do not intend to attack Edoman or anything like that, I just thought it was odd, that's all.

I won't iterate more on this issue under this topic. It is worth opening another thread if we want to discuss it. Let's keep this as a thread full of music.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

You said ...



Were you talking about the Turks or Armenians?

Saco,I was talking abou our FRIENDS! Do not be such a racist, for Gods sack!

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Oh, right! How can I skip that! Thanks VaheTheWise, I have never thought of doing that... Searching on internet, dictionary, googleing it! Yeah! What a wise response! I opened my eyes to the real world!

But, even when I do what you recommend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(music)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphony

And what I understood (of course as much as my intelligence allowed me) it is not possible to say "x music is monadic, y music is polyphonic" as they are opposite definitions.

I thought this is a "discussion" forum, and people can ask questions. And especially if the question is more about a clarification rather than a definition, I thought questions will be responded by answers.

Please, VaheTheWise, help me, do not make me look it up in a useless dictionaries, enlighten me with your wisdom and your deepless knowledge about music that I cannot access in a dictionary.

NO WAY

althoug if you ask me nicely I may....

btw,I like the way you address me, I may change my nick….

[Sako]

Sorry Vahe Jan, I understood you wrong. I thought you were talking to the Turks out there, sarcastically calling them our friends.

[Sako]

Saco, my friend, I never thought what I wrote would require such a long response as yours Probably my response will be a longer one compared to what it should be.

Just wanted to make myself clear, I might’ve gone too far. I think my message was on track though and described why our music is so alike but still far apart, atleast to some extent. Sorry if it was a bit long.

Unfortunately, you put some words to my mouth to iterate on what you want to say.

I’m sorry if I did May, I didn’t mean to.

I really do not want to know if someone heard what I said before. I don't want what I said to be interpreted within what "ordinary Turk" thinks, what another person said in whatever context. I want to be treated individually, for what I said, in whatever context I said. If someone had things to say before but could not mention due to various reasons, I am not the person to be addressed for the unmade speech. A fair request, I believe.

That’s just the way it is May. I don’t treat a group of people as a whole. Lal, Hitite, Arda, you, are all individual people to me and what you say is also individual. That’s the way it always should be. Many look at Turks as a whole and that’s extremely wrong. That mentality must be eliminated in the long run because it stops us from appreciating each other as individuals.

I NEVER said Armenians and Turks are COMPLETELY alike. I never intend to homogenize the people living in Anatolia. I even think there are many different cultures attitudes (and as a consequence different musical styles) among the "Turks" in Turkey. And I believe I made myself pretty clear that my observation about being alike may be biased because I came up the most of the Armenian music I listened while I was searching for music that is in accordance with my musical taste. I have no idea about Armenian religious music sounds like, or pop music, or instruments that are not common with Turkish. I do not expect Armenians to be in love with Turkish music (if there is a single type of it) just as not expecting myself to love whatever from Armenian.

I didn't say you said we're completely alike either but there are people that have in the past (not in this forum) and I wanted to hit two birds with one stone.You’re not wrong about the music being alike but when you said we lived together for a long time, I wanted to clear that issue up for you and anyone else that has doubts, being a person living in a family very close to music all his life. I didn’t necessarily mean you were wrong, I just took the liberty to go deeper into the issue. You aren’t the first person that has talked about musical similarities. Also, I said all this with Edoman in mind as well. I wasn’t only replying to you. Since he said he couldn’t normally stand Turkish music and you said that by liking one, a person could like the other probably, I wanted to address both issues head on. Sorry for any confusion.

Still, having many common words between Indian and Turkish (because of Persian influence on both), or feeling Flamenco vocals closer to Turkish compared to other European music styles (due to Arabic influence on both) makes me think that if the influence is so apparent even very very indirectly, Turkish and Armenian music should be more alike than we think. Cultural interactions are based on many factors such as language, religion etc. But geography is a very important aspect because it brings the same climate, same troubles with many economic activities etc along with neighborhood relations. And if the similarity of the music is for any reason, it is because Armenians and Turkish lived in the same geography for a long time. That's why, even I did not know System of a Down members were Armenian, I could still guess they have connections with Middle East, Anatolia because of their melodies and vocal styles in some of their songs. And that's why they are popular in Turkey although some of their fans will be terrorized to hear Armenian genocide. But since they do not understand or care about the lyrics, they love the group because of the minor similarities we are discussing here.

I agree. There are similarities but not enough similarities to like Turkish music if you like Armenian music. I’d say it all comes down to taste. Also, I think that a person who likes Arabic music will be keener on hearing Turkish music, they have much more in common. The languages even sound similar. Armenian music isn’t that alike. We did get our similarities by living for centuries side by side but they aren’t enough to say that if you like one you will probably like the other. Languages also play a great role, remember May, some people hate Turkish/Armenian as a language. They can’t bear to hear it spoken/sung. I understand what you mean though, you aren’t entirely wrong.

I want to return to why I started this "being alike" discussion. It is very important because when the discussion is stripped off the context it may lead to nonsense claims. I saw it in this forum many times. It was a response to Edoman's post, because he liked one of the songs that I posted and he said "normally he cannot stand" Turkish music. That expression sounded odd to me because liking or not liking is something. But I thought the similarities (minor or major) could prevent us from saying "I cannot stand" the music of the other. To clarify more, I do not intend to attack Edoman or anything like that, I just thought it was odd, that's all.

There are Armenians who don’t even like Armenian music May so it all comes down to taste. In the long run though, like I said before, there aren’t enough similarities to keep someone from saying “I can’t stand Turkish/Armenian music”. Don’t be surprised.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Post Turkish, Armenian and Greek music in this thread!

Correct me if I am wrong, but Armenian music is usually in Byzantine scale,
using the Zurna, Dumbek, Duduk, Oud, Tanbur (though admittedly I haven't seen tanbur being used alot) Qanun and Qamancha. Most of the music I have heard are in 6/8 (the one I heard is Tatuli Bar) with frequent polyrhythms and stretching multiple octaves.

I think other cultures in the region do use the same instruments and scales at times, however the Zurna and Dumbek and indigenously Armenian, the Oud, Tanbur and Qanun being of course Persian/Arab (for another intersting fact the guitar used as a classical guitar mistakenly called the Spanish guitar, is actually a Persian instrument, the Spanish guitar is actually the Spanish Vihuela not Mexican Vihuela, the Mexican vihuela is an unrelated rhythm instrument just called the same as no one had a clue what to name it lol)

Just curious if I am correct, I love music theory and I want to learn more about Armenian music