What should Turkey be proud of?

[Pazooki]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Peacfull my ass.

loLLLL

So thats what TUrkey shoud be proud of? LOL!!!

[Sako]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

I can't believe Bell's talking like a human being, lol, this is a memorable day !

Regarding Azeri's living in Armenia, it's not very hard to prove deniers wrong. Just recently a guy ran from the Azeri army, coming to Armenia. He used the news networks here to get a message to his family. The entire country, including Azerbaijan saw it so who are we trying to kid here, lol?

Interesting conversation guys, we even learned about Norway ! Now THIS is the type of conversations we need to have. Why do we have to argue all the time???

Peace

[bell-the-cat]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Very interesting, Կատու. I'm sure Statoil's investments into the "azerbaijan" oil sector have nothing to do with their stance I'm surprised at the church's involvement though, could you give me an example of their financing of "azerbaijan's" pseudohistory?

It's complicated and I'm not completely sure of the facts to say much. What I need is someone in Norway who knows that society well, otherwise it is too easy to descend into conspiracy theories.
Is the Church of Norway supporting Azerbaijan pseudohistory because it canbe used to counteract growing neo-Pagan beliefs in Norway, beliefs that undermine the Church's authority? For the pagans, Odin is a God. The Church of Norway supports an alternative theory, dreamed up by pseudo-historian Thor Heyerdahl, that Odin is actually "Udin", derived from "Udi", a minority ethnic group living in Azerbaijan. Heyerdahl claimed that thousands of years ago some of the Udi people had migrated to Norway, had brought advanced technology to its native population and were considered by them to be like gods. The state ideology of Azeribaijan says that the Udi are the descendants of the Caucasian Albanians, and the Caucasian Albanians are the original inhabitants of Artsakh. So the ideologies of the Church of Norway and Azerbaijan coincide and support each other.
There is also close involvement of Norway in the recent "restoration" of an Armenian church in Azerbaijan which involved the obliteration of all Armenian inscriptions in the church and its graveyard to change its identity into a Caucasian Albanian church. The names of some of those involved have the same surname as the wife of a former prime minister of Norway but I don't know if they are actually related. Norway also financed the excavation and restoration of a former Caucasian Albanian church that had been used as an Armenian church in the 19th century, and was led by a man who had worked with Thor Heyerdahl on his "Odin" pseudo-theories. The restoration involved the removal of evidence of the Armenian connection.

There is other stuff, like a Norwegian-run NGO manipulating data and playing with words to say that there are no Armenian refugees from Azerbaijan living in Armenia any more, so money should not be given to Armenia to help them and projects in Armenia should be closed down, but hundreds of thousands of Azeri internally-displaced persons still exist and all the money should go to Azerbaijan.

[Haykakan]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Peacfull my ass.

[KanadaHye]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Secularism does not need a democratic institution to hold it up.I am so tired of people labeling democracy as the cureall to xxxxin everything.The truth is democracy is the most corrupt system of government ever invented, it is also the most warlike. Democracys go to war with each other and with other states with other kinds of governments more then any other kind of government.If you have a king or a dictator there is only one guy and the people working for him that you gota please/bribe/getalong with. In a democracy the list of people to bribe is endless and if you fail at bribing one you will surely find another to take your money.American democracy is a great example, the whole interest group/lobbyibg system is a bribe based system.As far as being warlike again just look at the US as a leader for all rotten democracys to follow. A strong and knowledgable dictator or a king will do way more good for his people and country then a xxxxin democracy.

I thought democratic nations were peaceful nations

[Federate]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

(BTW, Norway and especially the Church of Norway is also very pro-Azerbaijan, including financing the "Azerification" of Armenian sites in Azerbaijan and supporting racist organisations in Azerbaijan).

Very interesting, Կատու. I'm sure Statoil's investments into the "azerbaijan" oil sector have nothing to do with their stance I'm surprised at the church's involvement though, could you give me an example of their financing of "azerbaijan's" pseudohistory?

[Haykakan]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Secularism does not need a democratic institution to hold it up.I am so tired of people labeling democracy as the cureall to xxxxin everything.The truth is democracy is the most corrupt system of government ever invented, it is also the most warlike. Democracys go to war with each other and with other states with other kinds of governments more then any other kind of government.If you have a king or a dictator there is only one guy and the people working for him that you gota please/bribe/getalong with. In a democracy the list of people to bribe is endless and if you fail at bribing one you will surely find another to take your money.American democracy is a great example, the whole interest group/lobbyibg system is a bribe based system.As far as being warlike again just look at the US as a leader for all rotten democracys to follow. A strong and knowledgable dictator or a king will do way more good for his people and country then a xxxxin democracy.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Since 1923, Turkey Republic completely rejected Islam at least in the institutional domains and state owned companies. Turkey has no religion in the constitution, that is, no religion has been specified for Turkish citizens. I have no idea about Syria’s constitution, but Turkey did this in 1920s. And Turkey still rejects the relioginal things get involved in the state-owned companies and most institutional domains etc. That means State of Turkey has no religion officially.

I don’t think that Syria has taken more steps than Turkey in those years, because Turkey was getting closer to Europe than middle east since the first time’s of Ottoman Empire and especially in the time of Sultan Selim 3 and Mahmud 2 and then Tanzimat Fermanı (declaration of reforms) in 1839. It is impossible for Syria to go beyond of Turkey about such things. The only thing we can talk about is the effect of Turkey on Syria.

Learning about History of Turkey between 1923-1980 can give a lot of ideas about Turkey’s secular system.

Most of you are usually apt to make light of Turkey and her position in the world but that is not realistic as well as exaggereting her position of course.

I wasn't actually talking about democracy or civil liberties and such like, just the position of Islam. Turkey is certainly more democratic and is closer to European ideals of liberty than Syria. But Syria seems to have chosen to conciously restrict Islam and campaign against it. Turkey, except from a brief period of opposition in the 1920s, decided on an alternative method of control, to "tame" Islam by incorporating its entire religious apperatus within the state. To me, Turkey's secularism is a thin veneer maintained only by its desire to retain and improve on its democracy, a fear of what full-blown Islam could bring, and the remnants of Kemalism. Syria's secularism is deeper, has a political base to it, but is without democratic institutions to back it up and maintain it. Neither solution seems particularly stable.

[Sako]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

If we talk and share our opinions and knowledge with each other, we may not think in a way you don't want us to. Look at the Turks who bounce in sometimes claiming that Armenia is worthless. They don't know a thing about Armenia or it's people and when they find out about all that Armenia has accomplished throughout history and how worthless their claims were, they disappear. There are so many Armenians as well that simply talk about Turkey without knowing a thing about her. Now look at me, I kindly requested all of you to let me know more about Turkey because me and so many other people in my project have some great ideas/intentions. I don't knowr really much about Turkey and wanted to get a good impression from all of you.

Our biggest problem is that we don't talk much and when we do, it's only because someone brought up the AG issue. How many of you actually have friendly or NORMAL chats with Turks/Armenians in general in the forums or anywhere else? Show of posts. Not many I'm sure. This thread is your proof. Just look at how it got all mixed up. It isn't because we hate each other (can't talk for Hellektor), it's because we talk so infrequently with each other and mostly ONLY when a discussion is related to the AG. Am I right or wrong? Threads like this one and normal chats in general will help us all look at the bigger picture.

The AG issue must be taken forward but it shouldn't be the only reason we're talking together. It's become a sickness. It's gone so far that it's almsot unbeliavable to hear/read that Saco, Pedro, and many other members have great, friendly relations with different Turks. Let's face it, we as Armenians and Turks don't know enough and in many cases almost ANYTHING about each other. That's why we seem to look at each other in strange ways, not knowing what to expect from Turks/Armenians. Most are simply taught that Armenians/Turks are evil people and no one questions that theory mostly because we seem to be so far apart. THAT'S what needs to change before anything else. If Turkish leaders agree that the AG took place and even apologize ad give back all the land and everything, we still won't be able to talk properly with each other because we don't know much or almost anything about each other. That's one of the reasons I asked this question. I knew a fight would take place and I'm glad everything happened the way it did. Now we are more prepared to talk and with a better understanding of the current situation. Enough of the pitiful claims, their too freakin old.

[Eti]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

A secular state is one where there is a clear separation of organised religion from the state aparatus. Turkey isn't a secular state by that definition. Kemalist Turkey nationalised Islam, and its imams are all public employees, trained in state-run religious schools, and everything is paid for by Turkish taxpayers regardless of their religious beliefs. Syria is actually more like a secular state than Turkey. Turkey isn't alone in that though - even in Europe for example. In Norway the state pays for the wages of the clergy of the Church of Norway and it enjoys a very close relationship with the government of Norway (BTW, Norway and especially the Church of Norway is also very pro-Azerbaijan, including financing the "Azerification" of Armenian sites in Azerbaijan and supporting racist organisations in Azerbaijan).

Since 1923, Turkey Republic completely rejected Islam at least in the institutional domains and state owned companies. Turkey has no religion in the constitution, that is, no religion has been specified for Turkish citizens. I have no idea about Syria’s constitution, but Turkey did this in 1920s. And Turkey still rejects the relioginal things get involved in the state-owned companies and most institutional domains etc. That means State of Turkey has no religion officially.

I don’t think that Syria has taken more steps than Turkey in those years, because Turkey was getting closer to Europe than middle east since the first time’s of Ottoman Empire and especially in the time of Sultan Selim 3 and Mahmud 2 and then Tanzimat Fermanı (declaration of reforms) in 1839. It is impossible for Syria to go beyond of Turkey about such things. The only thing we can talk about is the effect of Turkey on Syria.

Learning about History of Turkey between 1923-1980 can give a lot of ideas about Turkey’s secular system.

Most of you are usually apt to make light of Turkey and her position in the world but that is not realistic as well as exaggereting her position of course.