Recognition and Restitution

[Anonymouse]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

What do you mean "what is your point"?

I was asking a question. Or didn't you see the "?" symbol? Who is this Ghazarian person and why should anything he says be seen as being important?

I suppose there is a certain rhetorical aspect to my question. Obviously Ghazarian's statement is not important. It's just another one of those "by Armenians for Armenians" things. He'll probably get a few dinners out of it, maybe the occasional invite to give a talk at or an interview with some of the more nutty Armenian organisations, but that's all.

What Armenian's statement is important? It seems that no one's is according to your standards. I presume you will say no one has made a lick of difference yet and we are awaiting for someone that will. What then do you think will define or be a statement which will make a difference?

[hrai]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

Obviously Ghazarian's statement is not important. It's just another one of those "by Armenians for Armenians" things. He'll probably get a few dinners out of it, maybe the occasional invite to give a talk at or an interview with some of the more nutty Armenian organisations, but that's all.

I believe that Ghazarian's statement is from his heart, what his soul craves for, a return home.
If you look at the world through jaundiced eyes, the worlds gonna look jaundiced.

[hrai]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

What is this "Hayk Ghazarian" celebrated for - celebrated for making laughable statements or for something more than just that? And where does the celebrated Hayk make his statements?

Found this:
Genocide Armenian People in Ottoman Empire Armenia Book
It doesn't seem to be a serious work.

Oh okay, so we'll dismiss Professor Ghazarian's book on that basis then.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

What is your point?

What do you mean "what is your point"?

I was asking a question. Or didn't you see the "?" symbol? Who is this Ghazarian person and why should anything he says be seen as being important?

I suppose there is a certain rhetorical aspect to my question. Obviously Ghazarian's statement is not important. It's just another one of those "by Armenians for Armenians" things. He'll probably get a few dinners out of it, maybe the occasional invite to give a talk at or an interview with some of the more nutty Armenian organisations, but that's all.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

What is this "Hayk Ghazarian" celebrated for - celebrated for making laughable statements or for something more than just that? And where does the celebrated Hayk make his statements?

Found this:
Genocide Armenian People in Ottoman Empire Armenia Book
It doesn't seem to be a serious work.

What is your point?

[Eddo211]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

I support this view. In fact if all existing nations that have committed genocide in the last 200 years or so paid some gazillion dolalrs to the rightful owners of lands it would actually create immense liquidity in the world economy and might just stop the global crisis.

Ok I'm not trying to belittle the genocide here but giving lands back to Armenians is just not going to happen. Maybe a smack in the face saying "those lands belong to Turkey, at least for a few centuries" would work to stop these highly legitimate and justifiable but at the same time stupid requests. I think you should all accept the fact that what you call Western Armenia is LOST, for quite a long time and start dealing with the real deal and something sensible. Getting that piece of land back is a Diaspora fantasy and the mere idea IMHO is hurting your own cause. IT seems like if you want that land back any time soon you gotta bleed for it "again". I do not wish to offend anyone but thats the way things are at the moment and deep inside I know you would agree.

Hitites, we cannot grow and prosper without at least some portions of our land. Think about it my friend.
Have you looked at the current Armenian map? We are land locked in a small area surrounded by enemies with no natural resources. We can’t even breathe. We will not live on handouts, we are a proud nation and no matter how much compensation Turkey gives us it will never work. You want to turn us into the Palestinians? You want us to be completely dependent on Turkey so we can be manipulated at will? If Turkey thinks they can buy their way out of this while keeping the heavy pressure on then they are mistaken. This is a matter of survival as a nation and a people. Money is nothing compared to land. I would prefer Turkey not give us any compensation and not to recognize the AG ever but to give us back our dirt and return our sacred mountain.

BTW, I appreciate your post.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

Hayk Ghazarian, the celebrated Armenian historian is resolute in his position on the Armenian Genocide and it's recognition.
To quote him:
"Genocide is a crime against mankind with no statutory limitation, hence current authorities and the people of turkey are not only morally responsible for the wrong of their predecessors, but should make full restitution of a homeland, that of Western Armenia and Armenian Cilicia (about 325,ooo square kilometers) to the Genocide survivors,indemnifying massive material damages as well."

How do forum members view his stance and how does it compare to their own?

His calculation on minimum material damage to the Armenian nation of the years 1915-1922 was around $90 billion (1990 value).

What is this "Hayk Ghazarian" celebrated for - celebrated for making laughable statements or for something more than just that? And where does the celebrated Hayk make his statements?

Found this:
Genocide Armenian People in Ottoman Empire Armenia Book
It doesn't seem to be a serious work.

[hrai]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

Interesting views. I wish it could be that way but I find this to be simply a very beautiful dream, not something that will happen any time soon or perhaps ever. I don't really even think it would be very good actually now that I think about it and for one special reason. There are a lot of people living in the territories mentioned and there is only two things we can do if we get back all that land.

1. Make them leave (Not likely to happen, I feel)
2. Live with them and mix the Armenian populace with Turks, Kurds, etc. I doubt anyone wants that.

So basically our problems don't end if we get the land back. They rather begin ...

Just my personal views, I hope I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then I have more important things to do then dream about all that land and risk losing everything else in time. We have to set our priorities I feel.

Saco, what is your view then?
You've not really stated it unless I misread your posts. Where do you see recognition, compensation, restitution of historic lands?
Who would have thought 100 years ago that Israel would exist as a state?
Who would have thought 50 years ago that so many of the countries fabricated at the end of WW1 would disintegrate into smaller nation states?
Remember that the turkey of today is no older or more legitimate than was Yugoslavia and look how many countries now exist there.

[hitite]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

Hayk Ghazarian, the celebrated Armenian historian is resolute in his position on the Armenian Genocide and it's recognition.
To quote him:
"Genocide is a crime against mankind with no statutory limitation, hence current authorities and the people of turkey are not only morally responsible for the wrong of their predecessors, but should make full restitution of a homeland, that of Western Armenia and Armenian Cilicia (about 325,ooo square kilometers) to the Genocide survivors,indemnifying massive material damages as well."

How do forum members view his stance and how does it compare to their own?

His calculation on minimum material damage to the Armenian nation of the years 1915-1922 was around $90 billion (1990 value).

I support this view. In fact if all existing nations that have committed genocide in the last 200 years or so paid some gazillion dolalrs to the rightful owners of lands it would actually create immense liquidity in the world economy and might just stop the global crisis.

Ok I'm not trying to belittle the genocide here but giving lands back to Armenians is just not going to happen. Maybe a smack in the face saying "those lands belong to Turkey, at least for a few centuries" would work to stop these highly legitimate and justifiable but at the same time stupid requests. I think you should all accept the fact that what you call Western Armenia is LOST, for quite a long time and start dealing with the real deal and something sensible. Getting that piece of land back is a Diaspora fantasy and the mere idea IMHO is hurting your own cause. IT seems like if you want that land back any time soon you gotta bleed for it "again". I do not wish to offend anyone but thats the way things are at the moment and deep inside I know you would agree.

[Eddo211]

Re: Recognition and Restitution

Absolutely agree.

This doesn’t even cover the historical heritage buildings and the destruction of ancient scripts and archives which are priceless.
Turks must understand that there are several issues here and they are not necessarily connected to each other. For example the land issue can be resolved without an official recognition of the AG.
I also agree that today’s Turks have a moral obligation for the actions of their grandparents and this Turkish Government is not only directly responsible for crimes against the Armenians but must also be held accountable to denying it for so long.

BTW, the land issue can be settled without ethnic cleansing. The Turks living in those areas can have the option to continue living there under Armenian Government, after all…It is the only ethical thing to do.

In regards to land: It is a fact that land is the blood line of a nation and the most precious commodity. History has shown that nobody acquires land without spilling blood but our case is different…we are not conquering land, we are taking what is our God given right. If one day (when we are ready) we have to fight for it the…..then so be it.