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Pontian Genocide

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  • #41
    Re: Pontian Genocide

    The tendency towards atrocity in the Balkans, Anatolia, and Caucasus is quite old. And everyone has blood on their hands, including Armenians, Serbs, Greeks, Bulgars, and others.

    The main point is that the bloodshed and the historical and cultural injustices have far more been by Muslims against Christians than the other way around. If we just look at these areas:

    Muslims vs. Christians:

    Ottoman destruction of Christian culture in Anatolia/Balkans/Caucasus - Constantinople, Ani, etc.
    Blood tax of Christians - tellaks, koceks, janissaries, harem women
    Slave labor (kuluk) against Christians
    Deportation of Christians out of Nakhchivan
    Expulsion of Greeks from Thessaloniki
    Armenian genocide
    Hamidian massacres
    Assyrian massacres
    Pontic genocide
    Expulsion of Greeks from Anatolia
    Istanbul Pogrom and expulsion
    Cyprus invasion and expulsion of Greeks
    Chios massacre
    Massacre of Bulgarians
    Albanian participation in WWI against Serbs, with massacres
    Albanian participation in WWII against Serbs, Macedonian Slavs, and Greeks, with massacres and SS divisions
    Albanian siezure of Kosovo and wiping out of Christians
    Bosnian Muslim collaboration in WWII with Nazis, with SS division and deporting Serbs to death camps
    Bosnian Muslim killings/expelling of Serbs and Croats in the 1990s.
    Chechens killing Ossetians in Beslans
    Chechens killing/expelling Russians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians from Chechnya
    Azerbaijan expellling/killing Armenians

    Christians vs. Muslims

    Russians deporting/killing Circassians and other Muslims to Anatolia and the Middle East
    Greeks massacre Turks at Tripolitsa and attack Cretan Turks
    Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgarians expel and kill Turks and Muslim converts as they get independence
    Greeks expel/kill Turks in the 1920s
    Greeks expel Chams after WWII
    Serbs crack down on Albanians during Balkan wars, right after WWI, and in the 1990s.
    Serbs expel/kill Bosnian Muslims in the 1990s and some in WWII as well
    Bulgarians force Turks to be "Bulgarized" in the 1980s
    Greeks expel some Turks from south Cyprus
    Armenians expel/kill Azeris in Ngorno and Armenia proper during the war.

    Now, while I am sympathetic to all these issues, I think if we tallied up all the victims from the two sides, the Muslim atrocities against Christians in the post-Byzantine-sphere territories (I think that's a good name, no?) vastly outnumbers the reverse - perhaps even by an order of magnitude.

    Please tell me where the Turks are on this map?



    Also, you question the Greek/Armenian precendence to Anatolia, yet you cannot deny that the Armenian presence dates to at least the 6th century B.C. and the Greek presence dates to a similar time. And you have the gall to claim that their presence there - up until the 20th century A.D. when the genocidal Turks exterminated/expelled them - is irrelevant? Please.

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    • #42
      Re: Pontian Genocide

      The main point is that the bloodshed and the historical and cultural injustices have far more been by Muslims against Christians than the other way around. If we just look at these areas:

      So tell me my friend, Which muslim nation survived under 1000 year rule of christians? Christians could not kill much muslim because They had no chance. When They had chance, They did not miss their chance.

      After 1000 year, Greek were still majority at izmir but even withing 100 year, You clearified Turks from greece, ROA or occupied azeri land..

      It is not our guilt that even you were cruel, You had no power to show it.

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      • #43
        Re: Pontian Genocide

        Originally posted by Palavra View Post
        So tell me my friend, Which muslim nation survived under 1000 year rule of christians? Christians could not kill much muslim because They had no chance. When They had chance, They did not miss their chance.

        After 1000 year, Greek were still majority at izmir but even withing 100 year, You clearified Turks from greece, ROA or occupied azeri land..

        It is not our guilt that even you were cruel, You had no power to show it.
        I have no problem with admitting that. The tendency to violence and viciousness is there; the opportunity has been missing. The fact is, though, that the vast majority and over the longest period of time in the post-Byzantine sphere it has been by Muslims against Christians. And while I don't justify any act of violence, one could argue that much of the Muslim violence has been invasive - i.e. Turks invading Anatolia, Turks invading Greece, Albanians invading their Greek, Serb, and Macedonian neighbors in WWII, Azeris invading Armenians, etc.; whereas the reverse has usually, but not always, been about reclaiming longstanding historical territory and populations that have been stranded in Muslim territory. While I don't agree with atrocities the Greeks or anyone else did to Turks, I do sympathize with their liberation of Greece more than I do with the Turks invading and annexing Greece to their empire (and doing their own atrocities against the Greeks).

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        • #44
          Re: Pontian Genocide

          Same reason. They had no chance to attack Turks. When they had chance they did not miss it.

          Armenians had no place at adana and anatolia was not greek. I am not even talking about their attack to iran.

          And ottomans did not occupied greece. Ottoman occupied byzantium, another expansionist empire.

          After independence, greece is expended and never lost any land. So It looks like, They can be expansionist too..

          By the way, Albania did not gain land from greece but loose it. And Chem Albanians are ethnicly cleansed from greece.

          Anyway, If It is christian versus muslim thing, I am sure, You will see more christian expansion than muslim one. Muslim expansion was against christians when christian expansion is against to others..

          Comment


          • #45
            Re: Pontian Genocide

            It's not a Christian-Muslim thing, its a divide and conquer thing... with leaders using people as a political weapon. The wars that the U.S.A. has waged since its birth would outweigh that entire list. Empires come and go, people just want to survive. WWI was supposed to be the war to end all wars. After WWII, the borders in Europe were to remain unchanged... then the US had to go meddle with Yugoslavia. It seems everybody wants to rule the world.
            "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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            • #46
              Re: Pontian Genocide

              Originally posted by Palavra View Post
              Same reason. They had no chance to attack Turks. When they had chance they did not miss it.

              Armenians had no place at adana and anatolia was not greek. I am not even talking about their attack to iran.

              After independence, greece is expended and never lost any land. So It looks like, They can be expansionist too..

              By the way, Albania did not gain land from greece but loose it. And Chem Albanians are ethnicly cleansed from greece.
              Adana well its Armenian name So pls dont go there its all armenian Cilician

              Yes there u got a point,they newer had to expand more in minor asia,generals that knew of such mistake raisign from there positions,and even angry the king of there position,only if we had Benizelos winning the oposition maybe the things were better.

              For Albanians it hapend the right opposite i can give u profes with links but im bored,
              You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.

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              • #47
                Re: Pontian Genocide

                Originally posted by Palavra View Post
                Same reason. They had no chance to attack Turks. When they had chance they did not miss it.

                Armenians had no place at adana and anatolia was not greek. I am not even talking about their attack to iran.

                And ottomans did not occupied greece. Ottoman occupied byzantium, another expansionist empire.

                After independence, greece is expended and never lost any land. So It looks like, They can be expansionist too..

                By the way, Albania did not gain land from greece but loose it. And Chem Albanians are ethnicly cleansed from greece.

                Anyway, If It is christian versus muslim thing, I am sure, You will see more christian expansion than muslim one. Muslim expansion was against christians when christian expansion is against to others..
                I agree that everyone would do it if they could. If the Greeks could, they would kick the Turks out of Istanbul and make it Constantinople again - no doubt about that! Armenians would like to kick out Turks from eastern Anatolia, and Serbs would like to kick Albanian and Bosnian Muslims out of the territories they desire.

                What are you talking about. I pointed out that Greeks were settling Anatolia in the 6th century B.C. You think they have less right to live there than Turks, who entered in 1000 A.D. - 1600 years later??! This makes no sense.

                While it is true that Byzantine =/= Greece, especially in the early years of the empire, by the time the Ottomans entered Anatolia, it's ruling people were the Greeks. Most Anatolians identified as either Greeks or Armenians or perhaps Assyrians and Kurds. There were no Hittites, Luwians, Lydians, or other ancient peoples around at that point - they were culturally Greek or Armenian. In the Balkans, there were Greeks, Bulgars, Serbs, Christian Albanians, Romanians, and Croats. There were no Bosnian Muslims - another ethnic group the Turks created by encouraging conversions of non-Turks to Islam - or Albanian Muslims. And all that did was create a mess that's been haunting the area ever since.

                Why do Armenians "not belong in Adana" but Turks do?

                You don't know anything about the Chams. The Albanians were Nazi/fascist collaborators in WWII and murdered Greeks, Serbs, and Macedonians. They even had their own SS divisions. They are not the innocents you seem to think they are.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balli_Kombetar

                The Balli Kombėtar was an Albanian nationalist and anti-communist organization established in 1939. During World War II, it functioned largely as a resistance group against Italian and German occupation forces in Albania. However, members of the Balli Kombėtar collaborated with the Axis Powers during their occupation of Greece and Yugoslavia. In 1943, for example, members recruited by the organization participated alongside the Wehrmacht in burning villages in Albania, Greece[1] and in Republic of Macedonia[2].
                The political program of the organization included the creation of Great Albania (called Ethnic Albania by Albanians), incorporating southern Montenegro, Kosovo, western Macedonia and Epirus in a single state. In 1943, the Albanian Communist Party declared war on Balli Kombėtar. The Communists won and proceeded to imprison, execute or force Balli Kombetar members into exile, mainly to Europe and the United States.
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Wa..._(1st_Albanian)

                The 21st SS Division Skanderbeg was a Waffen SS Mountain division set up by Heinrich Himmler in March 1944, officially under the title of the 21st Waffen-Gebirgs Division der SS Skanderbeg (Albanische Nr. 1). It was named after George Kastrioti Skanderbeg, the national hero of Albanians who resisted Ottoman invasion for 25 years.

                The 21st Waffen SS Mountain Division was the only fully ethnic Albanian division to be recruited during the Second World War. It was established originally to combat partisan activity with the promise that the territories with a majority Albanian population were to become an independent and unified state to include Albania, Kosovo and Western Macedonia or what is called Natural Albania (or Ethnic Albania).doubtful, add reference

                SS-Brigadefűhrer August Schmidthuber, one of the commanders of the 21st SS Mountain Division "Skanderbeg”, was captured in 1945 and turned over to Yugoslav authorities. He was put on trial in February 1947 by a Yugoslav military tribunal at Belgrade, on charges of participating in massacres, deportations and atrocities against civilians. The tribunal sentenced him to death by hanging. He was executed on February, 27th 1947. [3]

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                • #48
                  Re: Pontian Genocide

                  Nasty.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Re: Pontian Genocide

                    What are you talking about. I pointed out that Greeks were settling Anatolia in the 6th century B.C. You think they have less right to live there than Turks, who entered in 1000 A.D. - 1600 years later??! This makes no sense.
                    Greeks did not settle anatolia. They took it from others and Turks take anatolia from them. Greeks has right to live in anatolia but they have not ownership of anatolia.

                    While it is true that Byzantine =/= Greece, especially in the early years of the empire, by the time the Ottomans entered Anatolia, it's ruling people were the Greeks.
                    Yup and they ruled non-greek areas. It was a greek empire.(at least, We call it. In reality, people of byzantine never called themself as greek but roma.)

                    There were no Hittites, Luwians, Lydians, or other ancient peoples around at that point - they were culturally Greek or Armenian.
                    Agree. Their lands were taken by someone else and they are asimilated..

                    In the Balkans, there were Greeks, Bulgars, Serbs, Christian Albanians, Romanians, and Croats. There were no Bosnian Muslims - another ethnic group the Turks created by encouraging conversions of non-Turks to Islam
                    Hehe. Before turks, there were bosniaks(not bosnians.) They changed their religion thanks to christian attack to them.

                    And muslim albanian? It is not a new ethnic. Albanians were living at that land before ottomans and after ottomans..

                    And all that did was create a mess that's been haunting the area ever since.
                    That is realy weird. So You want to tell me, balkain nations dislike albanian or bosniaks because they are muslim? That is not guilt of ottoman empire. Infact guilty one is enemy of albanian and bosniak because they are muslim. So You are talking about christian tolerance?

                    I should also add, even bosniaks and albanians were not muslim, Balkain will become a mess. Mecadonians or croats are not muslims but they had their own enemies too..

                    Why do Armenians "not belong in Adana" but Turks do?
                    Because we are majority.


                    You don't know anything about the Chams. The Albanians were Nazi/fascist collaborators in WWII and murdered Greeks, Serbs, and Macedonians. They even had their own SS divisions. They are not the innocents you seem to think they are.
                    I know Chams but I cannot see any reason to ethnic cleanse them. You cannot justify ethnic cleansing with such weak reasons.

                    That is also how some people justify AG.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Re: Pontian Genocide

                      Originally posted by Palavra View Post
                      Greeks did not settle anatolia. They took it from others and Turks take anatolia from them. Greeks has right to live in anatolia but they have not ownership of anatolia.
                      Typical turkish way of thinking. In your mind there isn-t any peaceful settling just tacking land by force. You are wrong there were very peaceful colonies of settlers in history.They were colonizing not by force but their cultural and economical might. The atributes that savage turks never had.






                      Originally posted by Palavra View Post
                      And muslim albanian? It is not a new ethnic. Albanians were living at that land before ottomans and after ottomans..
                      Right, but they were Albanians, not turks such as this ones.



                      Originally posted by Palavra View Post
                      Because we are majority.
                      The c-o-ckroaches are also in majority (there are much more c-o-ckroaches in the world than humans) does it mean that world belongs to them?
                      Last edited by Mukuch; 05-08-2009, 01:02 PM.
                      Death or Freedom!

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