Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

[may]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Yea but not much has been happening since May 2006 when them two Greek F-16s made a fool out of your two Turkish pilots in a mock Dogfight over Aegean………………..right after one of your jets made a sudden provocetive manoeuvre that violated air-traffic rules and could have been almost e classifyed as provoking War between the two countries.

Too bad your humiliated pilot lost his cool after the conclusion of the engagement and decided to ram the Greek Jet from behind instead of heading home.

This is proof that you have learned nothing from your training over the hot deserts of Tucson Arizona. I get the lowdown that comes from some of your American flight Instructors and they indicated indirectly that you can’t handle pressure let alone multitasking/prioritizing in a highly volatile and stressful environment but wait, it does however seem like you have learned the classic desperate Nazi’s Luftapha offensive of "ramming technique" used in WWII which fits right in with the Fascist/borderline Jihadist mentality……….but the German pilots were taking out Bombers valiently, not other fighters in a fit of anger.

That kind of mentality will only get you killed up there Turk. Lucky your Government has decided not to “play” anymore.........Ha.

I was aware that you know anything about Turkish domestic, international politics, people... But with this post I learned about your in depth knowledge about Greek and Turkish pilots, how Turkish pilots are trained, what are their characteristics... You can even give date for the end of dog fights (along with details of how the last one happened) in Egean Sea. I am impressed! I am not sure how many state officials have access to such data...

This kind of self confidence with "know everything" attitude will get you being ridiculed elsewhere Eddo, a friendly warning... What a self confidence!! I'm really impressed...

[Eddo211]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Wha what do you mean my dear may?
Everything I have said is practically common knowledge and can be attained easily in the aviation industry. You yourself could get access to some of that information if you knew where to look without being a professional Aviator who has friends in this field.

........was aware that you know anything about Turkish domestic, international politics, people.........

Most of the time I wing it may.

[Alexandros]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Hi Alexandros,

If you look at the Turkey's progress for EU, you'll notice the great drag after the initial fast period after Erdogan came to power. Whoever came to power at that time HAD TO pass these regulations because political scene was pressing for it and good relations with EU had a political gain behind it. Erdogan semi-dictatorship leadership reinforced its power among intellectual elite at those times. Once he was done with gaining the overall support for his first term, he stopped making any move towards other regulations. This includes the progress in Kurdish problem as well. And believe me, EU is not among the top priority list of AKP supporters.

may,

had CHP or MHP garnered the votes as AKP did back in 2002, I highly doubt that they would have implemented the reforms that AKP did regardless of the "political scene"; CHP and MHP seems to be competing with each other with who is more nationalistic but nationalism won`t solve Turkey`s economical, social... problems.By the way, I think that it would had been easier for AKP(and frankly for other parties as well if that was their intention) to make "real" changes if it wasn`t for the Turkish military`s influence in politics.

The Turkish military has made it very clear that they won`t bow to EU`s demands since the EU has said that the Turkish military must stay out of politics and must be under civilian control and not vice versa...

[hitite]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Yea but not much has been happening since May 2006 when them two Greek F-16s made a fool out of your two Turkish pilots in a mock Dogfight over Aegean………………..right after one of your jets made a sudden provocetive manoeuvre that violated air-traffic rules and could have been almost e classifyed as provoking War between the two countries.

Too bad your humiliated pilot lost his cool after the conclusion of the engagement and decided to ram the Greek Jet from behind instead of heading home.

This is proof that you have learned nothing from your training over the hot deserts of Tucson Arizona. I get the lowdown that comes from some of your American flight Instructors and they indicated indirectly that you can’t handle pressure let alone multitasking/prioritizing in a highly volatile and stressful environment but wait, it does however seem like you have learned the classic desperate Nazi’s Luftapha offensive of "ramming technique" used in WWII which fits right in with the Fascist/borderline Jihadist mentality……….but the German pilots were taking out Bombers valiently, not other fighters in a fit of anger.

That kind of mentality will only get you killed up there Turk. Lucky your Government has decided not to “play” anymore.........Ha.

Your warrior gods must have given you the wrong pacifier this morning Nobody said Turkish pilots are the best in the world.... where is this feeling of inferiority coming from all of a sudden?

[Eddo211]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Your warrior gods must have given you the wrong pacifier this morning Nobody said Turkish pilots are the best in the world.... where is this feeling of inferiority coming from all of a sudden?

What gets under my skin is the blatant lying/insults and the lack of professionalism that comes from you guy . The Turkish B-737 that crashed in Amsterdam just lately is a good example. First your government stated that the pilot’s heroic efforts saved many lives after the airplane experienced catastrophic structural failure (blaming the aircraft manufacturer Boing who lost three engineers in this crash as passengers). Then later it was reported by Turkish Airline pilots that the crash was due to wake turbulence (pointing the blame to air traffic controllers for not giving proper separation).

Well, come to find out from the black box that this Turkish crew knew about a faulty altimeter that feeds the autopilot, even worst is that they allowed the auto landing system to fly the airplane which initiated the landing flare 1000 feet above the ground and to top it off they failed to recover in a timely manner………….all pointing to pilot error for flying with a known problem, not hand flying the aircraft so close to the ground, not having situational awareness (altitude/airspeed), poor judgment, showing lack of basic skills, and not reacting properly to emergency that they put themselves into. Your heroic captain Hasan Tahsin Arisan, was an experienced former Air force pilot.

There is a reason why turkeys can’t fly.

[gegev]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Repeating same thing wont help discussion.
Armenia is realy an unimportant problem at EU-Turkey relationship. So It is not a good weapon for Armenia.

Geopolitical situation in the world is radically changed.

Several years ago Turkey, perhaps, through establishing diplomatic relations with Armenia, could slow down the AG recognition process. At that point they had the best "know-how" and "new" technologies in the population reproduction and in Turkish - diplomacy (mainly-lying) "Industries".

They thought Turkey can prevent Genocide recognition process even without easing down, a little bit, the pressure exerted on RoA. The hatred against Armenians prevented them to set the "diplomatic trap" for RoA; which could assist them to declare that the Genocide issue is a Turkey – Armenia bilateral problem and only the two countries should discuss and "settle" it during coming "centuries".

But now:

USA democrats won presidential elections; because voters want to return the USA army home, reduce the budget deficit, promote industrial growth and, at the same time, ensure that US strategic interests in the Middle East are not affected.

Democrats are patriots of their country, therefore their primary goal is not to maintain Iraq's territorial integrity; just to accommodate Turkey's national interests (Preventing Kurds to establish a Kurdish state in Iraq) at any cost to USA.

Growing instability in Iraq and collapse of USA projections on creating pro-American United Iraqi government, within reasonable cost and timeframe, failed. Because America wanted do it without breaking it into three states, Kurdish Sunni and Shia; to comfort Turkey’s national interests.

This radically changed political situation, during recent years, in USA. America, using its military superiority, rapidly occupied the country and apparently it was the most easy; first part of their plan.

And now they are unable (mission impossible) accomplish the second part of their plan, and the end, it is apparent, that way USA can not continue this war. Because, after occupying the country, when Americans are located inside, in large numbers, throughout Iraq, they can not use their only advantage; mass destruction weapons.

Meanwhile the Iraqi's have the most effective military means in that situation; the "alive weapons", suicide bombers (PS. – Christians don't have); who can not be attacked by the US mass destruction weapons, used at the start, to win Sadam. In this situation the bombardiers, helicopters artillery, tanks etc. are useless, most of time.

USA voter is aware that the dollar; the US most effective political and military tool is gradually becoming a second grade currency.

I guess, to adjust the situation above, and promote its national interests, US may act this way:

To justify next steps;

USA congress, first of all, needs to pass the bill; on the Armenian Genocide. Which, of cause, will serve as a legal and justifiable argument for the next steps below:

Letting, not preventing, Kurds create a puppet Kurdish state in Iraq, which will be a natural ally for America. Preliminarily, of cause, ensuring that; most of the Iraqi oil reserves are controlled by Kurds and make sure that they are properly armed to confront Shias, Sunni and eventually – Turkey to free their occupied land.

Expel Turkey form NATO, because USA will have several opportunities for relocating military bases in the region; Kurdistan, Georgia and perhaps the Sunni state.

Relocate military bases from Turkey to Kurdistan.

Return US army home.

Doing so America will enjoy, almost world wide support; because the action will help the justice to prevail. And for USA most important thing is that it will, first of all, serve American national interests. Of cause Kurds and Armenia will benefit from this too. But, you know, this is not the primary goal of the action above.

What happened to France-Turkish relations after passing the Armenian Genocide bill … nothing! Now Turks are handling their politics with France more cautiously and politely, than ever before, that is the results are positive for France.

Regards Gegev

[may]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Wha what do you mean my dear may?
Everything I have said is practically common knowledge and can be attained easily in the aviation industry. You yourself could get access to some of that information if you knew where to look without being a professional Aviator who has friends in this field.



Most of the time I wing it may.

What I mean Eddo is your way of jumping on any subject in which you could comment as "Ohhh... The Turks... genetically unable, loser, lousy etc etc."

When I read your post, I remembered "hunter jokes". I am sure the hunter stories are somewhat everywhere in the world (or maybe only Turkish hunters are that funny, don't know). The jokes or the stories (at least the ones in Turkey) has many things in common.

There are hunters who go hunting regularly. And when they do not hunt, they go to hunter hangouts to meet with other hunters. All of them are hunters, each one them knows the job inside out, and of course each of them is THE BEST. They tell stories to each other. Of course, they do not tell stories about hunting a rabbit. It they are talking about a rabbit hunt, then the rabbit is 3 feet high.

But it is preferable for hunters to tell about stories that will be more interesting for others, preferably less questionable ones, the ones hunters do not see everyday, say a giraffe. One say he was in Africa a month ago and talks about how he hunted the 10 meters high giraffe. He might have really gone to Africa, but who knows if he was involved in the hunt, or heard the story from someone else. Needless to say 10 meter high giraffe is made up by the first story teller, or made up on the spot by himself. If he is not the one making it up, he does not question the validity of a 10 meter high giraffe because that is the kind of subject "he wants to hear". And the African hunter who is telling the story also knows that whatever he says won't be questioned because it is a kind of story other person "wants to hear". The listener either tell others in the same way he hears, or make it more "interesting" by adding himself to the story or making giraffe 11 meters. And he is not questioned by his own friends because all the stories told in the hunter hangout are more or less the same, and once somebody stands up and says "what the hell are you talking about", then all their fun will be ruined. Still, they warn when the giraffe is 20 meters high, then they can better pretend 10 meter giraffe is a good estimate.

I will not ask you how you learned the flight logs of dogfights between Turkish and Greek pilots. I am sure the person will be in trouble when you reveal the name. I do not know how many drinks you had when you grasp the "indirectly indicated" punchline (turkeys cannot fly) of "aviator story" that the American instructors you met in "aviator hangout". But I am sure the people you talked are the instructors themselves and they did not drink enough to give you information that is probably secret for their profession. If they drank enough I am sure they will tell the "facts" "directly": Anybody born in Turkey, call himself Turk, speaks Turkish etc cannot fly. Why? Simply because they cannot for various reason. And I am sure, they tell you stories about every pilot from every nationality but the reason you told the one about Turkish pilots is because there was few lines about a dogfight between Turkish and Greek pilots and you were burning to give this crucial information about Turks' Nazi tricks from WW2, their incompetence etc. I am sure it was not an information that you tattooed to your brain to tell in other hangouts you go.

As a person, hearing aviation stories from "friends from the industry" I can imagine different versions of stories but that is not important. Lets assume Turkish government is giving its planes worth million dollars to people with no skills, where they could just ask some friends fromt he industry and learn they are wasting their money. Still, my problem is different.

"Turks cannot fly, I HEARD so" is not the only "statement" I read in these forums. As a matter of fact, your was one of the most scientific one (based on scientific chats with scientific people) about Turkish character. I remember hearing "Didn't Turks killed J.ews too? I THOUGHT so!" or "ISRAEL and some people in Turkey believe they are the true successors of Ottoman Empire, I BELIEVE so". Compared to those ones your statement is truly appreciated.

And last thing: the unskilled Turkish pilot that you almost cheered for his death for proving your claim, was living few months ago. Of course you know waay better, you have friends in the aviation business, these accidents are mostly one time event (low probability-high consequence in more academic terms). If you stop writing to this forum because you hit your airplane to the ground for various reasons, I won't be talking about your pilotage skills regardless of how I hear about Armenian pilots. So you can be content from my side.

[may]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

may,

had CHP or MHP garnered the votes as AKP did back in 2002, I highly doubt that they would have implemented the reforms that AKP did regardless of the "political scene"; CHP and MHP seems to be competing with each other with who is more nationalistic but nationalism won`t solve Turkey`s economical, social... problems.By the way, I think that it would had been easier for AKP(and frankly for other parties as well if that was their intention) to make "real" changes if it wasn`t for the Turkish military`s influence in politics.

The Turkish military has made it very clear that they won`t bow to EU`s demands since the EU has said that the Turkish military must stay out of politics and must be under civilian control and not vice versa...

Alexandros, CHP and MHP are the worst opposition parties I have seen in my short life. No real policies offered, no actual solutions are formulated. They are stuck to discussing the subjects AKP prepares for them to waste their time (get the bait in other words), and when they have extra time they do the easiest to keep their votes: Nationalism. But I think, even they would pass these laws, it was so inevitable IMO.

Regarding the military influence, I believe it is sometimes overestimated, and even be used as an excuse as you claimed. When Erdogan was passing the EU laws, his vote percentage was lower then his second term and military was at the top of its power. I also have witnessed that government and military worked together by creating temporary crisis to distract the public when one is about to do something unpopular. And with the latest Ergenekon investigation, the people in the military are mostly sitting hands tied with a lot of accusation around them.

In my opinion, Erdogan took the political advantage of passing EU laws (reducing the influence of military, gaining popularity among political elite, lowering the heat around their islamic character discussion etc.). And then he just gave it up. The problem of progress is not "not being able to", but simply "not wanting to". Or why should AKP care to pass EU laws when people are not demanding it as before. I personally do not think neither EU, nor Turkey will be discussing about progress until this economic crisis gets better. People have different and more material priorities nowadays.

[Eddo211]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

What I mean Eddo is your way of jumping on any subject in which you could comment as "Ohhh... The Turks... genetically unable, loser, lousy etc etc."

When I read your post, I remembered "hunter jokes". I am sure the hunter stories are somewhat everywhere in the world (or maybe only Turkish hunters are that funny, don't know). The jokes or the stories (at least the ones in Turkey) has many things in common.

There are hunters who go hunting regularly. And when they do not hunt, they go to hunter hangouts to meet with other hunters. All of them are hunters, each one them knows the job inside out, and of course each of them is THE BEST. They tell stories to each other. Of course, they do not tell stories about hunting a rabbit. It they are talking about a rabbit hunt, then the rabbit is 3 feet high.

But it is preferable for hunters to tell about stories that will be more interesting for others, preferably less questionable ones, the ones hunters do not see everyday, say a giraffe. One say he was in Africa a month ago and talks about how he hunted the 10 meters high giraffe. He might have really gone to Africa, but who knows if he was involved in the hunt, or heard the story from someone else. Needless to say 10 meter high giraffe is made up by the first story teller, or made up on the spot by himself. If he is not the one making it up, he does not question the validity of a 10 meter high giraffe because that is the kind of subject "he wants to hear". And the African hunter who is telling the story also knows that whatever he says won't be questioned because it is a kind of story other person "wants to hear". The listener either tell others in the same way he hears, or make it more "interesting" by adding himself to the story or making giraffe 11 meters. And he is not questioned by his own friends because all the stories told in the hunter hangout are more or less the same, and once somebody stands up and says "what the hell are you talking about", then all their fun will be ruined. Still, they warn when the giraffe is 20 meters high, then they can better pretend 10 meter giraffe is a good estimate.

I will not ask you how you learned the flight logs of dogfights between Turkish and Greek pilots. I am sure the person will be in trouble when you reveal the name. I do not know how many drinks you had when you grasp the "indirectly indicated" punchline (turkeys cannot fly) of "aviator story" that the American instructors you met in "aviator hangout". But I am sure the people you talked are the instructors themselves and they did not drink enough to give you information that is probably secret for their profession. If they drank enough I am sure they will tell the "facts" "directly": Anybody born in Turkey, call himself Turk, speaks Turkish etc cannot fly. Why? Simply because they cannot for various reason. And I am sure, they tell you stories about every pilot from every nationality but the reason you told the one about Turkish pilots is because there was few lines about a dogfight between Turkish and Greek pilots and you were burning to give this crucial information about Turks' Nazi tricks from WW2, their incompetence etc. I am sure it was not an information that you tattooed to your brain to tell in other hangouts you go.

As a person, hearing aviation stories from "friends from the industry" I can imagine different versions of stories but that is not important. Lets assume Turkish government is giving its planes worth million dollars to people with no skills, where they could just ask some friends fromt he industry and learn they are wasting their money. Still, my problem is different.

"Turks cannot fly, I HEARD so" is not the only "statement" I read in these forums. As a matter of fact, your was one of the most scientific one (based on scientific chats with scientific people) about Turkish character. I remember hearing "Didn't Turks killed J.ews too? I THOUGHT so!" or "ISRAEL and some people in Turkey believe they are the true successors of Ottoman Empire, I BELIEVE so". Compared to those ones your statement is truly appreciated.

And last thing: the unskilled Turkish pilot that you almost cheered for his death for proving your claim, was living few months ago. Of course you know waay better, you have friends in the aviation business, these accidents are mostly one time event (low probability-high consequence in more academic terms). If you stop writing to this forum because you hit your airplane to the ground for various reasons, I won't be talking about your pilotage skills regardless of how I hear about Armenian pilots. So you can be content from my side.

Jeez, I guess you told me may.

BTW, before you get your pantyhose all bunched up just remember that the loss of any aviator is a tragedy in our circle but when the lives of innocent people are in your hands it is utterly unforgivable for a crew to pull stunts like that against operating manual and worse, to allow their skill level to detoriate to such a degree that a imminent stall was not detected and was allowed to happen and that the simple recovery procedure was not done properly (doesn’t matter if you are a turkey or a hawk). I am telling you this as a Flight Instructor may and that gives me the right to critic.

"ISRAEL and some people in Turkey believe they are the true successors of Ottoman Empire, I BELIEVE so".

That is not me may, I never said that.

Sorry to change the subject people. I will shut up.

[Alexandros]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Alexandros, CHP and MHP are the worst opposition parties I have seen in my short life. No real policies offered, no actual solutions are formulated. They are stuck to discussing the subjects AKP prepares for them to waste their time (get the bait in other words), and when they have extra time they do the easiest to keep their votes: Nationalism. But I think, even they would pass these laws, it was so inevitable IMO.

This article is from 10 June 2002:

MHP's role

The real problem is, whether or not the governing parties embrace the decisions of the government. The entrenched opinion within the public is that the second largest coalition party MHP, is holding back the government from carrying out its EU policies.

In this case, MHP has to set a clear position and thus make a decision. If MHP does not think that the government is right in carrying out its EU policies, then it should withdraw from the government. MHP is now at a turning point between remaining in the government or gratify its voters.

If MHP prevents the government from carrying out its policies and also insists in remaining in the government, then the Prime Minister would be the person to solve this problem.

However Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit, the head of the government, is unable to carry out his duties.

Full article here

And this article is from 29 May 2008:

The Republican People’s Party (CHP), like the German Social Democratic Party and the British Labour Party, is a member of the Socialist International. The CHP gave immediate and unconditional support to the judges’ statement. Onur Oymen, the CHP’s deputy leader, told reporters, “Everyone should respect the statement of the Supreme Court of Appeal.”

CHP leader Deniz Baykal, acting as a mouthpiece for the military against the AKP government, called the chief judges’ statement a “memorandum (muhtira) of the judiciary.” In Turkish such wording directly connotes the numerous past memorandums of the Turkish military, some of which were followed by a direct military intervention.

Baykal made this analogy by approving the statement of the chief judges who are acting and speaking on behalf of the military, but his attitude is hardly surprising. A year ago both he and his CHP welcomed the memorandum posted on the official web site of the military on April 27, 2007, which contained a thinly veiled threat of a coup against the possibility of an Islamist becoming the president of Turkey.

Full article here

may,

are these the parties - CHP and MHP - that would have implemented reforms in order to join the EU?I think not!

Regarding the military influence, I believe it is sometimes overestimated, and even be used as an excuse as you claimed. When Erdogan was passing the EU laws, his vote percentage was lower then his second term and military was at the top of its power. I also have witnessed that government and military worked together by creating temporary crisis to distract the public when one is about to do something unpopular. And with the latest Ergenekon investigation, the people in the military are mostly sitting hands tied with a lot of accusation around them.

Was top of its power?Then who prevented Erdogan to lift the ban on headscarves?Had he been able to do it he would have done it a long time ago but the guys in the military uniform prevented Erdogan from doing it.

Ilker Basbug even made a public statement where he condemned DTP`s party leader Ahmed Turk for speaking in Kurdish to his party in the Turkish parliament not long time ago.Basbug said that this was unconstitutional.No double standards and no influence of politics here?

In my opinion, Erdogan took the political advantage of passing EU laws (reducing the influence of military, gaining popularity among political elite, lowering the heat around their islamic character discussion etc.). And then he just gave it up. The problem of progress is not "not being able to", but simply "not wanting to". Or why should AKP care to pass EU laws when people are not demanding it as before. I personally do not think neither EU, nor Turkey will be discussing about progress until this economic crisis gets better. People have different and more material priorities nowadays.

I can`t say I`m a big fan of Erdogan, however his party has been more EU oriented than CHP and MHP.On the other hand, there`s not much he could do since he has the powerful army against him.He could implement some reforms here or there until the military say:STOP!

And the Turkish constitution which is from 1982 needs to be changed because it gives too much power to the army but that won`t be easy either because - if I have understood it correctly and correct me if I`m wrong - AKP needs CHP or MHP in order to amend the constitution.

As for the Turks support to join the EU; this article is from 30 March 2009, Monday:

The survey, conducted by private research company DAP for the Traditional Alcoholic Beverage Producers Association (GİSDER), revealed that 75 percent of Turks support Turkey becoming a member of the EU. This is a significant increase -- by 21 percent --from the latest EU survey conducted in 2006, when only 54 percent said they supported Turkish membership in the EU.

Full article here

Not bad, eh?