Genocide

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Genocide

Not being selective at all. That is not the reason TARC was disband. The opposition from Armenians AND Turks, both within their respective countries, AND in their respective diaspora, was in full swing ever since the idea of TARC was even introduced. Both governments received a lot of scrutiny from their people when they heard such a committee was forming.

Now, as far as that statement goes, if genocidal events prior to 1951 cannot command any kind of reparations, why are Switzerland and Germany STILL paying compensation to the Jews for a genocide that happened prior to 1951? The word itself was created to describe what happened to the Jews and Armenians. Call it a genocide, call it a war crime (as it was called when the Nuremberg Trials were conducted, since the UNGA hadn't even adapted a resolution making genocide an international crime till 1946). The point still remains that international crimes against humanity were committed that have gone unpunished for almost a century, and that's just not acceptable. If Turkey truly believed that there would be no legal grounds for reparations, they wouldn't still be fighting hand, tooth and nail to deny the genocide.

[Jos]

Re: Genocide

Secondly, a joint committee of Turkish and Armenian participants, chosen and approved by BOTH governments, WAS established in 2002 to take this issue to an international court. The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) put together their cases, and presented everything they had to the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ). After investigating the evidence, the ICTJ concluded that the events of 1915 fit the definition of genocide.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/files/ICTJ_Memorandum.pdf

Immediately after this, Turkey disassociated themselves from TARC, and stated that the ICTJ's findings meant nothing, they don't know what they're talking about. Well if it meant nothing.....why did you agree to this in the first place? How many times are we going to play this game? Till someone finally tells you something you want to hear?

Dear Crimson, you appear to be very selective with your TARC story. The truth is that it was TARC was disbanded in September 2002 primarily due to vociferous Armenian opposition, originating from the the diaspora. The reason was vaguely due to the following finding:

"ALTHOUGH THE GENOCIDE CONVENTION DOES NOT GIVE RISE TO
STATE OR INDIVIDUAL LIABILITY FOR EVENTS WHICH OCCURRED
PRIOR TO JANUARY 12, 1951, THE TERM "GENOCIDE", AS DEFINED IN
THE CONVENTION, MAY BE APPLIED TO DESCRIBE SUCH EVENTS."

Effectively confirming that although the events of 1915 can be classified as 'genocide', there's no legal basis for retrospectively claiming any compensation. And frankly nothing has changed today that will alter this conclusion. In other words, Turks will have to come to terms with recognizing the events as genocide and Armenians will have to come to terms with the reality that there will be no reparations.

[Anoush]

Re: Genocide

Bell...all the posturing and self-proclamation in the world isn't going to change the truth about who you are. You have already established how little you know about the Armenian genocide by constantly contesting well established historic facts, and I have already told you once to never comment about the AG again. You have displayed your inadequacies time and time again when it comes to the Armenian genocide in more ways then one. The very telling way you avoid actually giving a counter argument to all the statements you claim are incorrect is a prime example. Instead, you place a jab, and then run away. This is not the manner in which someone who is confident in his knowledge conducts himself. What you're doing is the equivalent to a guy bragging about what a great MMA fighter he is, taunting other people in the ring who actually ARE fighting, and then backing down and running away when those fighters ask that guy to step in the ring.

For the millionth time, that summary is MORE than adequate for the readers it was meant for. It's not designed to turn you into a scholar, and is far from even sprinkle of how much detail I know about each and every event it goes over. Regardless, even that much is a lot to digest for most Armenians and Turks, like alpixoid (and other deniers like him), as they don't even have a basic understanding of the number and frequency of changes in power prior to 1915, or that the Hamidian and Adana massacres occurred (or if they do, WHY they happened/Armenians didn't "start/deserve" them), etc. For example, most have no clue that the Young Turks took over in 1908, or that the Armenians, as well as other Christian minorities and Jews, helped them in that take over. Most don't realize that it was the radical wing take over in 1913 that sealed the fate for the Armenians. THIS is how things went from "why we live side by side in piece hundreds years, and then we decide kill you all". If you still can't grasp the concept behind why I wrote that piece the way I did, that's your problem. But I'm sick of you basing how much I know about this subject off that one 6- page SUMMARY.

Oh, BTW, I noticed you stopped the quote short of the link with the MUCH, MUCH more extensive reply I gave our Turkish friend on the SOAD fan site. Why is that? THAT is a more accurate depiction of what 8 years of deep research can do, and even THAT isn't a scratch on the surface of what I have in my arsenal of knowledge. It's mind boggling that someone who has never shown evidence of an OUNCE of research on this subject in all the years he has been here has the audacity to question how much I, who at least has taken the time to respond with something other than a one sentence, off topic jab, knows. Even the denialists Turks have displayed more research than you, yet here you are, a non-Armenian on an Armenian specific website, doing NOTHING but criticizing Armenians for a lack of knowledge and research (when you're not just insulting them as a people).





LMAO.........that's a brilliant comment to make on a thread started by a Turk to deny the genocide, and ending with him saying this:



Yep, you're right. My knowledge and summary about the AG is worthless. After all, all it can do is convert a denialist to a believer. That's pretty amateur.

You are nothing but a troll. Please just keep your mouth shut when it comes to any thread pertaining to the AG, and return to the hole from which you occasionally crawl out of.

My man Glow who glows naturally, don't give any mind to this Bell. He has an attitude problem when he puts down to any knowledgeable Armenian who comes on this Forum that has something thrutful or intelligent to say. All he wishes to do is put them down arrogantly.

Thanks to your gathered knowledge about the AG, alpixoid understood better and accepted your just views and what has transpired from 1915-1923.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Genocide

We wont declare any war..As Ataturk says:Peace at home,Peace in the World..

You realize Ataturk said this AS he was slaughtering his neighbors, right? Catchy little political slogans don't mean jack shit. It's the action of politician's that matter, and Ataturk was certainly no peace lover. Again, if you didn't know much about the AG, or of the history of your ancestors, is it not possible yet again that you don't know much about your believed founder? Is it not possible yet again that you've been fed lies, and a falsified version of history when it comes to Ataturk?

We dont deny it as a society..The government denies it..

Actually, it is still denied by the VAST majority of your society. Granted, this is the government's fault for all the bullshit they teach in school, print in the newspapers, mention on TV, etc. Regardless, the outcome is that most of Turkey today denies the genocide, and they do so quite vehemently. That includes ordinary citizens and nationalists alike.

As for getting a land..You wont get anything..I can apologize,I can protest,I can make postcards says apologize but I wont give any of my land even if I need to die..

It's not your land to give. It's our land, so no need for you to die. You should be VOLUNTARILY giving stolen lands back, like this family:

http://blogian.hayastan.com/2009/01/09/turk-gives-away-family-land-as-genocide-reparation/

Funny how you're afraid to protest about the Armenian genocide because you're afraid of getting killed, but when it comes to giving land back to its rightful owners (which is the RIGHT thing to do), you'd rather die than let it happen. I think we see your true colors here.

GOD DAMNİT I ACCEPT THE GENOCİDE.In genocide of course your money would be taken away from you and the DAMN stereotypes can be anywhere cities,villages even in Ankara...

Relax, alpixoid. You'll have to forgive people if they're confused, because all they saw from you for 3 or 4 pages is how you DENIED the genocide. Not everyone realizes you suddenly "changed your mind".

Hey ! Dont use me as an example..

Why? Are you lying about accepting the genocide?

And for the last time if our people slaughtered you many years ago it doesnt mean we are going to do the same..They were different people than we are..And this is not Ottoman Empire..This is Turkey..People arent same,ideas arent same,leaders arent same..Now we are equal to everyone..

Really? Different people with different ideas? Everyone is equal? Then why are you afraid of getting killed if you publicly apologize for the Armenian genocide? Why would you get thrown in JAIL if you publicly apologized for the Armenian genocide? Why are Kurds who stand up for their rights considered terrorists? Why does every Turkish scholar who says anything even slightly critical about his country's history have to leave his country due to death threats and possible imprisonment? Why does Turkey still have one of (if not THE worst) track records for human rights violations in the world?

In 2008, Turkey ranked second after Russia in the list of countries with the largest number of human rights violation cases open at the European Court of Human Rights. (Duvakli, Melik. JİTEM’s illegal actions cost Turkey a fortune, Today's Zaman, 27 August 2008)

Does that look peaceful and progressive to you? Because that sure as hell doesn't sound like progress to me. Sounds like the same shit coming from a different asshole.

For SOAD's chance to play at Turkey..I think that will happen because of great sells of CDs..

The reason SOAD will never play in Turkey has nothing to do with how well their CDs sell over there. They have sold well in Turkey for years. As I said, they had planned on playing over there, but had to cancel the show because your government can't guarantee them any security, AND they were told they can't play certain songs, or say certain things (must be more of that progressive freedom of speech you think you have). See for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-8KCUJ0wa4

For my first post I was trying to learn about genocide and I didnt know anything after all proofs you showed me I have agreed with you..

That's great, IF you're being sincere (which I very highly doubt). But it certainly didn't sound like you were trying to "learn". The way you stated everything looks like you were trying to teach US what happened. You were not asking us questions. You were telling us how it happened according to you/Turkish propaganda, so naturally that's going to anger people that know better. We've heard the "Turkish side" a million times.

And Turkey IS a peaceful nation if you want to make peace with us..

A peaceful nation as long as we give you what you want, right? Give up AG claims, give NK back to Azerbaijan and accept the current Turkish boarders. Those are the provisions your government has asked for time and time again before they will even consider reopening boarders, or having a peaceful relationship with Armenia.

Mongols are not completely our ancestors and they have attacked us too.(Cengiz Han)

Mongols are your true ancestral heritage. Remember, your ancestors were referred to as Turks BEFORE they even left Asia. This is why your country went nuts over the Uighurs dying in China. Turks considers them the closest thing to their pure ancestry (BTW, you never did tell us how the death of 200 Uighurs is genocide. Can you elaborate on that, please?). The only reason you resemble Europeans, or Middle Easterners today is because your ancestors absorbed the cultures they invaded, raped, killed and stole from over the last 600 years, and today, try to pass off as their own.

And if there was some ignorant police officers and some villagers holding a sign that says Armenians cant get in that doesnt mean we are all like that.

Of course you're not ALL like that, but it's not just "some" ignorant villagers. It is how the majority of your citizens feel. That picture Pedro put up was right after Turkish Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit accused Israel of genocide (my....your country sure seems to be on a genocide accusation rampage lately, which is ironic considering how many millions they've slaughtered in their past). What I'm getting at is your country is ONLY tolerant and peaceful of minorities as long as they keep their mouths shut about their past, or their government doesn't rile up the hate that's still festering inside them.

This is EXACTLY how the AG happened. It was the same scenario. Most Turks didn't hate Armenians. In fact, many were friends. At the very least, they were indifferent. But there were enough people in the OE with hatred for the Armenians that as soon as the government declared them "traitors", they had the support they needed to commit a genocide. Your nation is still very much like that. They make a statement about how Israel is committing genocide, and out come all the anti-Jew and Armenian signs (why the Armenians? WTF did they have to do with what was going on in January?). If tomorrow your government declared Armenians or Jews to be traitors, I guarantee you a full blown slaughter fest would begin again. You are not ALL like that, but there are MORE than enough of you to make this possible. The "Turkey is for Turks" mentality is still very much alive amongst your nationalists, and the Deep State.

If we were all that ignorant and hateful we would've attack you for saying there were a genocide..Dont make us into stereotypes..

Oh believe me, if your country could see any conceivable way to take Armenia right now without stirring a world conflict up, they'd do it in a heartbeat. The problem is the world is very different today than when the AG happened. That whole region has been on the brink of war for quite a while, and is just itching for a reason to pull the trigger, and Turkey making a move on Armenia would provide that reason. If Turkey tried to take Armenia right now, Russia would get involved, and possibly Iran. If THAT happens, enemies of THOSE 2 nations would get involved, and a domino effect would ensue from there. WWIII. But don't kid yourself. The reason your government hasn't attacked yet is not because they're "peaceful", or "tolerant" of Armenia. Our nation has been a thorn in the side of Turkey for nearly 100 years, and they'd love nothing more than to see it wiped out. It's just that conditions won't permit it right now.

And with all do respect you wont get a part of Turkey..

That will remain to be seen when Turkey will eventually have to come to grips with its past. It is an international crime, and regardless of how long ago it happened, reparations must be made. Germany had to give land to the Jews well after the Empire had dissolved. Germany and Switzerland are STILL paying out compensation to the Jews, even TODAY! Today's Germany is not the German Empire. Different people, different leaders, different ideas. So why are they still paying for the crimes of their ancestors? Because just like modern day Turkey, the money and possessions taken from the Jews helped contribute and shape modern day Germany, though it's even more significant in the case of the AG, because the Ottoman Empire was financially bankrupt by this time, and most Turks were impoverished and poor, while the Greeks and Armenians were wealthy (this was part of what fueled the hatred and desire for the genocide).

It is no different than if your father stole a car, gave it to you, and then immediately passed away. If that stolen car is ever tracked down and found, you WILL have to give it back, even though you are not the one who stole it. You may not directly be guilty of the crime of stealing the car, but you also cannot inherit something that is stolen.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Genocide

GOD DAMNİT I ACCEPT THE GENOCİDE.In genocide of course your money would be taken away from you and the DAMN stereotypes can be anywhere cities,villages even in Ankara...

I know it can that was my point, I am glad you are finally catching up to what I said, in addition understand the following, Armenians lost everything during the Genocide, why can you not give them at least some form of reparations if not land, surely if someone was stolen from they have a right to claim compensation according to most human law?

Relax, I am not being antagonistic, there is no reason to respond emotionally, no one is attacking you

[alpixoid]

Alpixoid ur country is the most expansionist and aggressive ,if there is danger for war then it comes from turkey and azer/jan,cause if your neighbours think like u then they got all the provocations to declare war.
Cyprus,Agian,Armenia.

We wont declare any war..As Ataturk says:Peace at home,Peace in the World..

Oh really? It is a known fact that the LAST PHASE OF GENOCIDE is denial.




Your so called country turkey purposely and systematically killed and uprooted 3 Million civilian Armenians from their millenian anscestral lands, your great grandparents looted, raped, killed in a most unbelievably barbaric fashion our anscesters, then they confiscated and sat on our valuables, houses and lands; and after all that we will not get back anything? We are the heirs of those barbarically slaughtered martyrs. Your country rightfully owe it to us our lands back!

We shall see about that turk!

We dont deny it as a society..The government denies it..As for getting a land..You wont get anything..I can apologize,I can protest,I can make postcards says apologize but I wont give any of my land even if I need to die..

You wanna know something funny alpixoid, if you were German and the Armenians in question were instead xxxish, you'd for your words be prosecuted for a hate crime by Holocaust denial, yet if you lot do that to Armenians its considered peachy. Tell me the fairness there.

Stereotypes, laddie Hrant was stabbed in the city, not in some rural countryside, what about like Mehmet Ali Agha who came from Central Turkey and conductedd operations in major Turkish cities for the xxxkurtlar?

If you are unwilling to give up land, financial compensation is at least a start that you can do, what about Armenian money in Ottoman banks of which records have been erased, family heirlooms, houses, all this was stolen by Turks, surely if you expect friendship an offering of peace is neccessary.

See how quick ye are to directly lie and deny that there are many in Turkey with this attitude regarding my pic that I linked.

You still haven't explained all these Armenians who supposedly fought en masse against Turks and Ottomans

GOD DAMNİT I ACCEPT THE GENOCİDE.In genocide of course your money would be taken away from you and the DAMN stereotypes can be anywhere cities,villages even in Ankara...

Lav, the guy recognizes the Genocide. Close the thread for it started to lead to side conversations and arguments.

Finally some understanding..

We really really need to compile that list of all threads started by Turks coming here who question to Genocide.

Yeah,you do that..

Bell...all the posturing and self-proclamation in the world isn't going to change the truth about who you are. You have already established how little you know about the Armenian genocide by constantly contesting well established historic facts, and I have already told you once to never comment about the AG again. You have displayed your inadequacies time and time again when it comes to the Armenian genocide in more ways then one. The very telling way you avoid actually giving a counter argument to all the statements you claim are incorrect is a prime example. Instead, you place a jab, and then run away. This is not the manner in which someone who is confident in his knowledge conducts himself. What you're doing is the equivalent to a guy bragging about what a great MMA fighter he is, taunting other people in the ring who actually ARE fighting, and then backing down and running away when those fighters ask that guy to step in the ring.

For the millionth time, that summary is MORE than adequate for the readers it was meant for. It's not designed to turn you into a scholar, and is far from even sprinkle of how much detail I know about each and every event it goes over. Regardless, even that much is a lot to digest for most Armenians and Turks, like alpixoid (and other deniers like him), as they don't even have a basic understanding of the number and frequency of changes in power prior to 1915, or that the Hamidian and Adana massacres occurred (or if they do, WHY they happened/Armenians didn't "start/deserve" them), etc. For example, most have no clue that the Young Turks took over in 1908, or that the Armenians, as well as other Christian minorities and Jews, helped them in that take over. Most don't realize that it was the radical wing take over in 1913 that sealed the fate for the Armenians. THIS is how things went from "why we live side by side in piece hundreds years, and then we decide kill you all". If you still can't grasp the concept behind why I wrote that piece the way I did, that's your problem. But I'm sick of you basing how much I know about this subject off that one 6- page SUMMARY.

Oh, BTW, I noticed you stopped the quote short of the link with the MUCH, MUCH more extensive reply I gave our Turkish friend on the SOAD fan site. Why is that? THAT is a more accurate depiction of what 8 years of deep research can do, and even THAT isn't a scratch on the surface of what I have in my arsenal of knowledge. It's mind boggling that someone who has never shown evidence of an OUNCE of research on this subject in all the years he has been here has the audacity to question how much I, who at least has taken the time to respond with something other than a one sentence, off topic jab, knows. Even the denialists Turks have displayed more research than you, yet here you are, a non-Armenian on an Armenian specific website, doing NOTHING but criticizing Armenians for a lack of knowledge and research (when you're not just insulting them as a people).





LMAO.........that's a brilliant comment to make on a thread started by a Turk to deny the genocide, and ending with him saying this:



Yep, you're right. My knowledge and summary about the AG is worthless. After all, all it can do is convert a denialist to a believer. That's pretty amateur.

You are nothing but a troll. Please just keep your mouth shut when it comes to any thread pertaining to the AG, and return to the hole from which you occasionally crawl out of.

Hey ! Dont use me as an example..

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Genocide

Bell...all the posturing and self-proclamation in the world isn't going to change the truth about who you are. You have already established how little you know about the Armenian genocide by constantly contesting well established historic facts, and I have already told you once to never comment about the AG again. You have displayed your inadequacies time and time again when it comes to the Armenian genocide in more ways then one. The very telling way you avoid actually giving a counter argument to all the statements you claim are incorrect is a prime example. Instead, you place a jab, and then run away. This is not the manner in which someone who is confident in his knowledge conducts himself. What you're doing is the equivalent to a guy bragging about what a great MMA fighter he is, taunting other people in the ring who actually ARE fighting, and then backing down and running away when those fighters ask that guy to step in the ring.

For the millionth time, that summary is MORE than adequate for the readers it was meant for. It's not designed to turn you into a scholar, and is far from even sprinkle of how much detail I know about each and every event it goes over. Regardless, even that much is a lot to digest for most Armenians and Turks, like alpixoid (and other deniers like him), as they don't even have a basic understanding of the number and frequency of changes in power prior to 1915, or that the Hamidian and Adana massacres occurred (or if they do, WHY they happened/Armenians didn't "start/deserve" them), etc. For example, most have no clue that the Young Turks took over in 1908, or that the Armenians, as well as other Christian minorities and Jews, helped them in that take over. Most don't realize that it was the radical wing take over in 1913 that sealed the fate for the Armenians. THIS is how things went from "why we live side by side in piece hundreds years, and then we decide kill you all". If you still can't grasp the concept behind why I wrote that piece the way I did, that's your problem. But I'm sick of you basing how much I know about this subject off that one 6- page SUMMARY.

Oh, BTW, I noticed you stopped the quote short of the link with the MUCH, MUCH more extensive reply I gave our Turkish friend on the SOAD fan site. Why is that? THAT is a more accurate depiction of what 8 years of deep research can do, and even THAT isn't a scratch on the surface of what I have in my arsenal of knowledge. It's mind boggling that someone who has never shown evidence of an OUNCE of research on this subject in all the years he has been here has the audacity to question how much I, who at least has taken the time to respond with something other than a one sentence, off topic jab, knows. Even the denialists Turks have displayed more research than you, yet here you are, a non-Armenian on an Armenian specific website, doing NOTHING but criticizing Armenians for a lack of knowledge and research (when you're not just insulting them as a people).

It is largely because of this sort of amateurish "research" (and not the Turkish denialist propaganda) that the words "alleged" and "Armenians claim" are still so often placed next to the words "Armenian Genocide".

LMAO.........that's a brilliant comment to make on a thread started by a Turk to deny the genocide, and ending with him saying this:

For my first post I was trying to learn about genocide and I didnt know anything after all proofs you showed me I have agreed with you..

Yep, you're right. My knowledge and summary about the AG is worthless. After all, all it can do is convert a denialist to a believer. That's pretty amateur.

You are nothing but a troll. Please just keep your mouth shut when it comes to any thread pertaining to the AG, and return to the hole from which you occasionally crawl out of.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Genocide

Here is the result of those 8 years of research. First, Federate already told you to read this (which I very much doubt you did), but if you're serious, READ IT! It will give you a very basic understanding of the history of events leading up to the genocide. Maybe then you will understand how we went from "living side by side in peace" (which is wrong), to full blown genocide. You must understand the changes in power in the Ottoman government to understand what happened.

http://soadfans.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-25285.htm

8 years of research! (Bah, these smilies are inadequate - we need some that are rolling around in hysterical laughter).

It is largely because of this sort of amateurish "research" (and not the Turkish denialist propaganda) that the words "alleged" and "Armenians claim" are still so often placed next to the words "Armenian Genocide".

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Genocide

No there are 11 million Kurdish and 78 million Turk and 1 million of other minorities in Turkey..And the time you were a majority were loooong ago before the Turks came to Anatolia..

Making 90 million in total. Congratulations for giving a fairly accurate population figure for Turkey, one that is much higher that the inaccurate 75 million figure we see so often in EU propaganda. Though I've heard that 95 million is maybe even more accurate.

[jgk3]

Re: Genocide

here's a good start: To all "Hai Dat" champions and Armenian Turk lovers: http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=4648

I encourage everyone to use the search feature to find threads to contribute to this long list.

Expand your lists as you go along using the edit feature and try not to source threads that someone else has already mentioned. Make sure to include the title of the thread, and then the link.

Added:

Opinions of a Turk, or two (hi from Turkey): http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=5529