Kurds and Armenians

[Haykakan]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

TURKEY'S KURDS SEEK FORGIVENESS FOR 1915 ARMENIAN TRAGEDY

Al-Monitor
Sept 3 2013

By: Amberin Zaman for Al-Monitor Turkey Pulse Posted on September 3.

"The Armenian population is melting."

This bleak assessment was pronounced by Sahak Mashalyan, an Armenian
Orthodox priest, during a recent Sunday mass at the Asdvadzadzin
church in Istanbul. Reeling off the statistics: 1,482 funerals, 236
baptisms and 191 weddings, the black-robed cleric solemnly intoned,
"These figures point to a community ... that is dying."

Little over a century ago, the Armenian Patriarchate put Anatolia's
Armenian population at more than two million. In 1915, tragedy struck.

Estimated figures vary, but between 800,000 and a million Armenians are
thought to have been slaughtered by Ottoman forces and their Kurdish
allies in what many respected historians call the first genocide of
the 20th century. Turkey vehemently denies any genocidal intent. The
official line is that most of the Armenians died from hunger and
disease, as they were forcibly deported to the deserts of Syria amid
the upheaval of the collapsing empire.

The ruling Islamic Justice and Development Party has done more than
any of its pro-secular predecessors to improve the lot of Christian
minorities and to encourage freer debate of the horrors that befell
them. Yet it has also showered millions of dollars on international
lobbying firms in a vain effort to peddle the official version of
events. A steady trickle of nations continue to recognize the events
of 1915 as genocide. Turkey's biggest worry is that on the centenary in
2015, the United States will risk wrecking relations and follow suit.

In Turkey's mainly Kurdish southeastern province of Diyarbakir, global
diplomacy does not figure in the calculations of Abdullah Demirbas,
the mayor of the city's ancient Sur district. A maze of narrow cobbled
streets lined with decrepit stone houses, Sur used to be known as
the "neighborhood of the infidels" because of the large number of
Armenians, Syrian Orthodox Christians and xxxs who once lived there.

Since being twice elected to office on the ticket of Turkey's largest
pro-Kurdish party, Peace and Democracy (BDP), Demirbas, a stocky former
schoolteacher with an easy smile, has thrown himself wholeheartedly
into making amends for the past.

"As Kurds, we also bear responsibility for the suffering of the
Armenians," he told Al-Monitor over glasses of ruby-red tea. "We are
sorry, and we need to prove it." As a first step, Demirbas launched
free Armenian-language classes two years ago at the municipality
offices. "They were an instant hit," Demirbas said. Many of those who
enrolled were thought to be "hidden Armenians" or the descendants of
those who converted to Islam to survive.

One such "hidden Armenian," a gnarled octogenarian called Ismail,
confided to Al-Monitor that his father's real name was Leon.

"They wiped out his entire family, out in the fields," he said as he
awaited an audience with Demirbas. The old man's voice cracked with
emotion. "My father was rescued by a Turkish officer and became a
Muslim. But though, praise God, I am a good Muslim too, praying five
times a day, I know I am not accepted," he added. "In their minds,
I am always the son of the unbeliever."

The Kurds' role in the killings has been well documented, increasingly
now by the Kurds themselves.

Egged on by their Ottoman rulers, Kurdish tribal chieftains raped,
murdered and pillaged their way through the southeast provinces where
for centuries they had co-existed, if uneasily, with the Armenians and
other non-Muslims. Henry Morgenthau, who served as US ambassador in
Constantinople at the height of the bloodshed, described the Kurds'
complicity in his chilling 1918 memoir Ambassador Morgenthau's
Story thusly:

"The Kurds would sweep down from their mountain homes. Rushing up
to the young girls, they would lift their veils and carry the pretty
ones off to the hills. They would steal such children as pleased their
fancy and mercilessly rob all the rest of the throng. ... While they
were committing these depredations, the Kurds would freely massacre,
and the screams of women and old men would add to the general horror."

Osman Koker, a Turkish historian who has chronicled Armenian life
through a rich collection of postcards and photographs predating 1915,
reckons more than half of Diyarbakir's population was non-Muslim
before the violence began.

"Most of them were Armenians, now there are none," Koker told
Al-Monitor in an interview. Hashim Hashimi, a former member of
parliament and a Sunni Muslim spiritual leader with a robust following,
told Al-Monitor, "Sadly, many imams were convincing people that if
they killed an infidel they would find their place in heaven and be
rewarded with beautiful girls." This meant that thousands of Syrian
Orthodox and other Christians were not spared, either.

In 2009 Demirbas and Osman Baydemir, a fellow BDP politician and the
mayor of Greater Diyarbakir, decided to help with the restoration of
an Armenian Orthodox church that had lay in ruins for decades in Sur.

Baydemir donated a third of the costs of restoring Surp Giragos to
its former magnificence. In 2011 the church, said to be the largest
Armenian church in the Middle East, opened its doors as a fully
functioning house of worship.

Ergun Ayik, an Armenian entrepreneur and philanthropist who runs the
Surp Giragos Foundation, told Al-Monitor that the BDP mayors "went
out of their way to help us," even providing the church with free
utilities and security guards. A new museum of Armenian culture that is
due to open by the end of 2013 within the Surp Giragos complex under
the sponsorship of the Greater Diyarbakir municipality should also
help draw tourists, not to mention thousands of "hidden Armenians"
thought to be scattered across the southeast.

Silva Ozyerli, an Armenian activist from Diyarbakir who left for
Istanbul in the 1970s, has agreed to donate some family treasures,
including a silk nightshirt, several finely embroidered tablecloths
and a pair of engraved copper bowls to the museum. Ozyerli voiced
her enthusiasm for the project in an interview with Al-Monitor.

"You know why it is dear to me?" she asked a tinge of defiance creeping
into her voice. "It is because everything in that museum will show
people that not too long ago, Diyarbakir was every bit as Armenian
as it was Kurdish, if not more so."

Amberin Zaman is an Istanbul-based writer who has covered Turkey for
The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, The Daily Telegraph and
the Voice of America. A frequent commentator on Turkish television,
she is currently Turkey correspondent for The Economist, a position
she has retained since 1999.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/09/turkey-kurds-seek-armenian-forgiveness.html

[kurdman]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

Kurds doing in Duhok what Kurds do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Dohuk_riots

An unfortunate event. I'm not going to try to stick up for those fools, because it is clear they were in the wrong, but to say that it was a Kurdish attack is completely wrong! it was a Muslim attack, a very small minority of people living in the outskirts of the main cities and were motivated by a crazy mullah. I suggest you use google next time and not just wikipedia where Kids often with agenda write the articles because if you did you would have noticed that after the attacks it was Muslim Kurds that took revenge in the name of the Christians not that two rights make a wrong but I assure you, the police arrested all those involved from both sides because after the attacks the offices of the local Muslim political parties were completely burned.

[kurdman]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

These can't be the descendants of the Armenians, goaded on by Russians, who massacred 5,000 in that same place, can they?

You now post against Assyrians...........who next turctool?

I'm not against 'Assyrians' in any way. Infact I'm a 1/4 'Assyrian' myself. No, actually, we saved their ass from the Ottomans and now from the terrorists in Baghdad. Funny aint it? Kurdistan has given refuge to 200,000 christian (be it Armenians or 'Assyrian').

[hrai]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

I'm not going to lower myself to your level and make degenerate comments because at the end of the day, that is what the uncivilized people do, and I will refrain from doing so for the couple decent Armenians out there, infact there are a good 20,000 decent Armenians around Duhok.

Assyrian/chaldean/nestorian or whatever other term they use for Christian Kurds these days are nothing but pawns for extra votes in the elections.Look up their nationalist sites and see how they moan about the Assyrian parties in Syria aligning themselves with the KNC in Syria.

I suggest you worry more about the fail state of Armenia and the growing numbers of people leaving Armenia on a daily bases.

These can't be the descendants of the Armenians, goaded on by Russians, who massacred 5,000 in that same place, can they?

You now post against Assyrians...........who next turctool?

[kurdman]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

I'm not going to lower myself to your level and make degenerate comments because at the end of the day, that is what the uncivilized people do, and I will refrain from doing so for the couple decent Armenians out there, infact there are a good 20,000 decent Armenians around Duhok.

Assyrian/chaldean/nestorian or whatever other term they use for Christian Kurds these days are nothing but pawns for extra votes in the elections.Look up their nationalist sites and see how they moan about the Assyrian parties in Syria aligning themselves with the KNC in Syria.

I suggest you worry more about the fail state of Armenia and the growing numbers of people leaving Armenia on a daily bases.

[retro]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

Nestorian Christians are Kurds! Another new Kurdish lie? How are Kurds going to explain why the Kurds repeatedly massacred them? And how, in the early 19th-century, committed on them the first modern-era genocide (the Nestorians were, ironically, only saved from complete extinction by the intervention of Ottoman forces).
Kurdish lies seem to know no limit - maybe because until recently nobody bothered about them so they were free to claim whatever they wanted about themselves amongst themselves.

The Nestorian church hails from the patriarch of Constantinople and has nothing to do with the Kurds. Whilst the Nestorians/Assyrians have their faults. They are a lot more civilized than this Persianised-Hurrian rabble.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

I know you read that on Wikipedia. Do not trust it, it is lies! the very name 'Assyrian' is debatable these days! I have sources of a British man that visited Kurdistan to do research in 1908 and he mentions everyone (Kurds, Armenians, Yazidis, Shabaks) except Assyrians! he does however mention nestorian Christians who spoke Kurdish and were part of Kurdish tribes! if you read other British sources, you will see that the brits tried to take advantage of the fact that some Kurds were christian and even tries to convert all Kurds to Christianity! you will also find that the brits had the 'levis' a force under British command mostly manned by christian! I seriously doubt Assyrian exist anymore. As for the massacre, it is stated in a book written by a Russian professor that it was indeed conducted by Armenians with Russian aid. You can deny it! makes you no different from the Turks.

Nestorian Christians are Kurds! Another new Kurdish lie? How are Kurds going to explain why the Kurds repeatedly massacred them? And how, in the early 19th-century, committed on them the first modern-era genocide (the Nestorians were, ironically, only saved from complete extinction by the intervention of Ottoman forces).
Kurdish lies seem to know no limit - maybe because until recently nobody bothered about them so they were free to claim whatever they wanted about themselves amongst themselves.

[Eddo211]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

when the Russians were in town, the Armenians massacared so many Kurds..

Wrong koordy

We killed your murdering raping bandits for what they did to Armenians......even long before 1915.

Why are you trolling an Armenian forum?

Koordy Strong 111!!??.....jackass

[Mos]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

Kurds are well known for their treachery during Armenian Genocide. They responded to Turkish blood money by eagerly killing and looting Armenians, taking over villages, mostly with their bandit groups. It's said Kurds killed more Armenians than Turks. They were a tool used by the Turks to do their dirty work. So it shouldn't be surprising that we are not that warm towards Kurds.

[Federate]

Re: Kurds and Armenians

I know you read that on Wikipedia. Do not trust it, it is lies! the very name 'Assyrian' is debatable these days! I have sources of a British man that visited Kurdistan to do research in 1908 and he mentions everyone (Kurds, Armenians, Yazidis, Shabaks) except Assyrians! he does however mention nestorian Christians who spoke Kurdish and were part of Kurdish tribes! if you read other British sources, you will see that the brits tried to take advantage of the fact that some Kurds were christian and even tries to convert all Kurds to Christianity! you will also find that the brits had the 'levis' a force under British command mostly manned by christian! I seriously doubt Assyrian exist anymore. As for the massacre, it is stated in a book written by a Russian professor that it was indeed conducted by Armenians with Russian aid. You can deny it! makes you no different from the Turks.

Did Armenians Kill 5000 Kurds in Rawanduz?

Particularly among the Alawites who live in eastern Turkey there is an increasing interest in the history of the genocide and the Armenians, with which they were historically and culturally connected. Articles on the Armenian genocide have already appeared in several issues of the magazine “Kizilbas”. Among them is a text by Naci Kutlay which gives an impression of the status of the debate on the theme of genocide and Armenian-Kurdish relations.

Kutlay writes: “At some places they released Kurds in prison to kill Armenians. However Armenian Fedayeen and organisations, during the Russian invasion of the Kurdistan, responded with the same massacres. According to some sources, 5000 Kurds were killed in May 1916 in the city of Rawanduz. This was very clearly an act of revenge.“ He does not consider it necessary to cite a source for this very serious accusation. Although there is no reference to any scientific work, Kutley seems to have used an essay by the well-known historian Dr. Kemal Mazhar Ahmed published in 1975 by the Kurdish Academy in Baghdad. “The city was taken on May 13. The Armenians fedayeens wanted to take vengeance and as a result they shed a lot of blood. According to some sources, at the end of the massacre 5000 Kurdish women, children, and men were killed. Many of them had not been shot but had been thrust into the Rawanduz gorge.” Ahmed’s work states. In a footnote, he refers to a book by K. Mason, an English officer at the time. It dealt with the question of the Turkish-Iraqi border and the role of the League of Nations. It is curious that in his footnote remarks K.M. Ahmad himself doubts that in Rawanduz 5000 Kurds had been killed: “This figure seems to be exaggerated. Neither M.H. Zeki, who reports on the destructions of the war, nor Hüseyn H. Mukriyani, who lived in Rawanduz after World War I and wrote about it, cite such a figure. Among the people it was said that many Kurdish women had thrown themselves into the gorge to save their honor.” Thus, not only is the number 5000 murdered Kurds questionable, but also whether or not such a mass murder took place at all in Rawanduz. Naci Kutlay seems either not to have read this important remark by K.M. Ahmed or to have deliberately concealed it. What remains fixed in the mind of the reader is that in Rawanduz 5000 Kurds fell victim to an act of revenge by Armenian Fedayeen.

Clearly one dare not play down the gravity of crimes or remain silent about them. When, however, scientists or intellectuals make such serious allegations like the killing of 5000 Kurds, without a shred of concrete evidence, they are knowingly or unknowingly promoting animosity, hatred, and mistrust among peoples. That Armenians who were in the areas that were under Russian control from 1916 committed acts of revenge cannot be denied. Many Armenian Fedayeen came from Western Armenia. They had fought there against the government troops and Hamidian regiments before the “Young Turk Revolution of 1908“. So the pro-government Kurdish tribal groups that had participated in the massacres were known to the Armenians. This is why they directed their vengeance mainly against these Kurds. In Revanduz, which is in the south, outside the areas of Armenian settlements, there was no Armenian population worth mentioning. The Kurdish tribes in this region of Kurdistan had not taken part in Armenian massacres, under Abdul Hamid’s rule or later. Thus it is unlikely that Armenian Fedayeen should have committed acts of revenge against the Kurds there of all people.

http://massispost.com/?p=3766

FYI: our genocide started in 1915.