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acceptance of genocide or demand land and money?

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  • #1

    acceptance of genocide or demand land and money?

    Not the ordinary Turkish people but the politicians and some people who support turkish official thesis thinks that Armenians do not only demand from Turkey to accept genocide thesis but they also demand some part from eastern anatolia and money as a compensation. They think that Armenians' claims are only the first step for the next. What do you think?
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  • #2
    Turks who deny the Armenian genocide are chicken. Funny really, that a country as big as Turkey trembles before Armenia.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Tufan
      Not the ordinary Turkish people but the politicians and some people who support turkish official thesis thinks that Armenians do not only demand from Turkey to accept genocide thesis but they also demand some part from eastern anatolia and money as a compensation. They think that Armenians' claims are only the first step for the next. What do you think?
      After having observed the reactions of various Turkish officials aver the years, I think the number one reason why they refuse to acknowledge the genocide is blind nationalism and a refusal to accept past mistakes. The territorial issue and compensation are also factors, but only secondary ones. I say this because if tomorrow the Turks were to say "We accept that the Ottoman Empire carried Genocide against the Armenians, but we refuse to modify the borders of present day Turkey", there is not much that can be done to force the Turks otherwise. It is not as if the US or Russia would go to war. So the territorial integrity and compensation are only secondary. Rather, what Turks as a society are exhibiting is what many people exhibit also on a personal basis, namely a blind pride that prevents them from seeing their own wrongdoings. It is a question of humility. An arrogant man will never admit that he is wrong, whereas a humble man is more likely to see his bad deeds. If Turks were more humble rather than being blindly nationalistic, this issue would go a long way to being resolved. The fact is that the Turks have too much blind pride to admit that they did something terrible. By the way, this lack of humility is not just a Turkish problem, it applies to other nations as well.

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      • #4
        Tufan - this in an absurd claim by a government that wll use any excuse - take any angle - to avoid confronting (admiting) the truth and to keep its own people hating and in ignorance. And for your benefit I should like to inform you that Armenian President Kocharian has specificaly ruled out any land claims and such by Armenia upon the recognized territory of Turkey based on anything connected to Genocide recognition. Now on the other hand - if - by through (unlawful) actions taken by a government - its citizens were deprived of life and property - shouldn't the heirs of these people be entitled to compensation. That being said - this is not the motivation of Armenains for Genocide recognition as no Armenian has any real hope that such would ever occur. So I would ask you to please think for yourself why Armenians - nearly all who have suffered loss in their families - nearly all who can talk of the places in Anatolia where their families once lived, nearly all who were dispossesed of family and property and life - yet have seen the perpetrators and the decendents of the purpetrators only deny, deflect, make excuses, blame the victims etc....when they have experienced such great collective and individual loss - why would these people want recognition? Why should they expect the truth? And could you imagine if today the Germans denied their history and attempted to minimize and or even blame the Jews of Europe for their own destruction? Think about it....

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        • #5
          jgm - yes its this and its more then this. The Turks see themselves as the victims (of foreign powers, internal traitors etc etc) - their whole national psyche - built up from Ataturk - is that they have persevered over the injustices against them. Their xenophobia in this regard prevails to this day - (again both external - and internal regarding any in Turkey who do not identify with being nationalistically Turkish). To admit then - that thier modern nation is built upon the destruction of another people - an innocent people - through the most despicable and criminal of means - well this goes against everything they have been brought up/indoctrinated to believe....

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          • #6
            Originally posted by winoman
            jgm - yes its this and its more then this. The Turks see themselves as the victims (of foreign powers, internal traitors etc etc) - their whole national psyche - built up from Ataturk - is that they have persevered over the injustices against them. Their xenophobia in this regard prevails to this day - (again both external - and internal regarding any in Turkey who do not identify with being nationalistically Turkish). To admit then - that thier modern nation is built upon the destruction of another people - an innocent people - through the most despicable and criminal of means - well this goes against everything they have been brought up/indoctrinated to believe....
            I agree with you that Turks today have that kind of national psyche which we call as "Sevres paranoia" (the treaty which results 9/10 of Ottoman lands are lost and even Turks homeland is divided among UK, France, Greece, Italy, etc.) Those years not only Armenians but also Turks lived such a trauma that even today it remaines at the national subconscionus of Turkish people. Millions of Turks died not only soldiers at fronts but also women and children at the civil wars. Balkan nations uprised and proclaimed their independence are resulted with the massacres of Muslim population at Balkans. More than a million of Muslim inhabitants of Balkans are killed or died during the expulsion of families to east of Turkey during 19. century and 1912-1913. The ones reached to Istanbul are settled at anatolia. Today 1/3 of the total Turkish population are of Balkan origin.
            The reason why I tell all these are just to inform you about the reasons of that paranoia. No reason justifies what happened to Armenians at 1915.

            I observed that some Armenians accuse Ataturk about Armenian genocide. This is totally meaningless because at 1915 Ataturk was a lieutenant colonel and was defending Gallipoli. You can accuse Enver, Talat and Cemal Pashas from the murders.

            I don't want to start a discussion about if a genocide really happened or not, but just for you to understand what the other side thinks:
            Very shortly,
            1. Turks who deny genocide thinks that it was a civil war and also Turkish inhabitants of eastern anatolia (who was the majority at 1915) died by guerillas of Hinchak, Tashnak comitees.
            2. Turks deny because they think that Armenian genocide is not approved by international comitee, because historians still argue it and there are very respectful non-turkish historians who support Turkish thesis.

            I am not a historian but I know that at 1914 Armenian population of Turkey was 1.300.000 and at 1916 they remained 150.000. The rest of them are the ones who died or killed during the deportation and the ones who reached to France, USA, etc. This is a shameful record and it has no excuse.
            I only want to show you the points from this side.

            This problem will be solved for sure at the close future. Dont take it as offence but also one of the reasons why it is still not solved is the behaivour of diaspora Armenians. I am sure that if ASALA terrorists (which some of you think that they are heroes) wouldn't make their activities and if the diaspora Armenians wouldn't be that much aggresive against everything about Turks, then this problem culd be solved much more earlier. But in any case please be informed that ordinary Turks do not hate Armenians and they don't think that everythink is true at the official thesis of the state.

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            • #7
              Tufan, didn't I tell you to get lost a while back? Why are you still here? Get lost.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tufan
                This problem will be solved for sure at the close future. Dont take it as offence but also one of the reasons why it is still not solved is the behaivour of diaspora Armenians. I am sure that if ASALA terrorists (which some of you think that they are heroes) wouldn't make their activities and if the diaspora Armenians wouldn't be that much aggresive against everything about Turks, then this problem culd be solved much more earlier. But in any case please be informed that ordinary Turks do not hate Armenians and they don't think that everythink is true at the official thesis of the state.
                Let me be clearer for you: THE reason why the genocide is not solved is because of the Turks that deny. It's because of Turks like you who will bring in any excuse to deny what you should be deeply ashamed of. There is no ASALA. Why do Turks keep using this as an excuse to deny the genocide? Let me repeat: there is no ASALA. ASALA did its job: namely to bring attention to the Armenian genocide. ASALA's job is done, finito. There is no more ASALA. None of it. Zilch. Capiche? Okay. Next point:

                The ordinary Turk hates Armenians. If the ordinary Turk didn't hate Armenians, they wouldn't use Ermeni as an insult. They would stand up against their government and army. There would be a revolution. Capiche? Okay. Last point:

                Armenians are not making up the genocide. It has been thoroughly researched and the conclusion of the event is GENOCIDE. Get used to it. There's no point coming to an Armenian forum denying the Armenian genocide. It won't get you anywhere. Capiche? Good. Now, unless you're here for another purpose than denying the Armenian genocide, playing innocent and demanding peace with a people that continues to this day to threaten and oppress Armenians, get lost.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Tufan there are those of us who understand how the Muslim refugee situation (from Crimea as well as the Balkans) that existed prior to WWI exacerbated the hatred and pressures on the Ottoman gov't (& ruling CUP) to move against the Armenians. Because the perpetrators of the actions against the Muslims were Orthodox Christians further stocked the dislike/resentment of Armenians who were also Orthodox - though who were - by and large innocent of any crimes against Muslims. Understanding and recognizing these factors is still no out or excuse for the crimes commited against the Armenians. You mention the actions of the Armenian political commities - while there were some - these were very isolated - amounting to no more - and likely less trouble then the people in the countryside were experiencing from marruding Kurds during this time - yet you and other Turks attempt to brand this as a civil war - it was nothing of the sort. If there was truly a civil war (outside of only a very few places - such as Van - where Armenians actually acted to defend themselves once brutalities began against them) - if there were a civil war then it would have not been possible for just scores of lightly armed gendarmes to round up and escort basically the entire Armenian population of Eastern and much of Western Anatolia (and even Thrace) - without a single instance of evn one of these convoys being rescued or the Turks being attacked - it never once happend...so just where were all these armed Armenian soldiers roaming the countryside? Answer - prior to 1915 (try basically not until 1917 with the break up of the Russian Armies) - these soldiers did not exist - there was no civil war or armed opposition - there was only a perception - on the part of admittedly paranoid (and greedy and hateful.despicable - etc) Turks (of the CUP) of a potential for rebellion...and why so - because of the decades of reprression and outrages of course...because a peaceful and productive population was preyed upon and denied rights - and I could go on and on - still - the Armenians were survivors - used to this sort of thing - their leadership (even most of the commities) agreed to not act in opposition to the national leadership (and the rest of the population basically had no means to revolt - and remeber the Ottomans had already drafted the Armenian men and were organizing them into forced labor battalions. It was only Enver's folly and failure in the Caucuses and the realization that the Russian were indeed comming and that the Ottomans were going to have to scramble to keep what they had and not expand that fed the paranoia against the Armenians. And you had mentioned the refugees from the Balkans etc - these people needed to be settled - the CUP saw a way to accomplish many goals simultaniously. etc

                  Also - you quote discredited pre-war population figures regarding the Armenians and I have already shown (on other Armenian and Genocide related web sites) that McCarthy's figures and the (so-called) census counts he relies on are innnacurate and not to be trusted. Regardless - this numbers game is just that - another attempt on the part of Turk apologists to somehow lessen the gravity of what was done. Much like this focus on ASALA. I'll make a deal with you - I will agree to associate all Armenians with ASALA if you agree that all Turks should be thought of as Mehmet Ali Agca supporters (the crazy Turk who shot the Pope in 1981). Anyway get off it - ASALA is a non-issue. Their activities - though useful in publiscizing the genocide issue - were not at all supported by Armenians at large. Do you want the Pope dead? I think all Turks should be condemned for violance against Catholics....

                  I think its useful for Armenians to (better) understand why Turks have taken the postions they have ad why they think about their past cetain ways...I think Turks need to be more aware of why they are thinking these ways as well. In the end though there is no debate - it was a genocide - there can be no justification for what was done - and the turks are basically in denial of the crimes of the past. Yes - there are issues of why Turks were driven to such behaviors and side issues - some concerning isolated Armenian violence (though the lesson is more how these were exaggerated and used by the ruling CUP to fan the hatred and to make excuse - during and after the fact).

                  So be a man Tufan - admit that it was genocide - admit that it was a terrible crime - and that for all purposes it was a one sided crime (OK Turks suffered too...but at whose hands? Whose fault? Who got Turkey into the war? Who failed to provide and live up to their promisses?) etc etc -- Don't tell my you see Enver, Talat and Jemal as heros - or even patriots...that certainly would be telling now...

                  Just as it is telling when you claim that there are recognized historians that deny it was genocide...(and who support the "Tuskish thesis") - well that this is a patently untrue statement should be obvious. If you believe it to be true - please - by all means name these historians...and I'm referring to ones who do not recieve their funding from Turkey...and incidently we can name hundreds of scholars - even Jewish ones BTW (you may recall the full page adds taken out in major papers several years ago) - that affirm the genocide and call for its recognition. So any claims of any legitimacy of the "Turkish Thesis" is very disengenuous on your part. And then to say the reason that the Genocide is not recognized is due to the Armenain Diaspora!!!!! And nothing to do with Turkish willful amnesia and perpetuation of lies, untuth and denial? Are you really so ignorant? So please I ask to to cease insulting us and our families. If you wish to converse with Armenians you can begin by some show of contrition as we deserve from you. Otherwise I will have to second Nari's call for you to just go away.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Tufan, your people's history is built upon conquering other nations and a parasite-like spread over lands you have no right to while selfishly killing anyone who stands in the way of the precious "Turkish Agenda"... and I am not talking about Armenians. Oppression and bloodshed is how Turks have gotten where they are. I have very little respect for your ancestors or current government. Again, this has nothing to do with being Armenian. Some culturals have peaceful pasts, some have barbarious pasts. I will never be "sympathetic" to what Turks want because simply put, your people haven't earned it.
                    "All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

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