acceptance of genocide or demand land and money?

[Virgil]

About Armenia, what I implied was to stop occupying their neighbours lands illegaly and establish a working economy and democracy. I see poor Armenians from Armenia who come to Turkey, working illegaly and make some money for their families at Armenia and I am sorry for them

Tufan, do not even criticize Armenia because Turkey ranked lower in per capita income, education, and literacy rate in 2004. Turkey would not exist today if it did not receive handouts from America and the Genocide would have been accepted already if it had not been for Turkey blackmailing Israel and the Jewish lobby into being a roadblock for Armenians.

Let us suppose that Armenians are "wrong" and have "fabricated" everything about Turks. Please explain to me why Kurds, Greeks, Serbs, Persians, and Arabs all despise and mistrust Turks? Why is it that all these groups consider Turkey a fabricated country and the people just Turkfied masses of the indigenous population? In general why do they hold the same feelings towards Turks?

You have no right to criticize our country because it has only been independent for 10 years and for that amount of time has excelled more than its neighbors including Turkey. We have no resources and are landlocked, but yet our country is growing and getting better day by day.

In fact Azerbaijan the "oil producing" country of the Southern Caucasus has a dictator heading its government, while it has seen NO economic gain in a long time. Our "so-called" friends the Georgians are facing bankruptcy and may even lose their statehood if they do not resolve their problems with minorities. Turkey on the other hand has the most resources out of the three and for 80 years it still has not improved. Today most of the population is in poverty, lacking an education, and migrating to Europe. Furthermore, you have a disgruntled minority that comprises almost one third of the population in Turkey.

If you honestly think we are "occupying lands" then by all means get the hell out of Cyprus. If you indeed are a “humanitarian” then cut your losses short and give the Kurds a nation.

See these are the same double standards I am talking about. Our friend Tufan considers Armenians defending themselves from Azeri's as a act of "occupying land", but yet if Azerbaijan and Turkey do the same, which they have towards Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Greek Cypriots, and Arabs it would be deemed "ok" by the their standards.

Last time I checked it was the Artsahk (Karabagh) Armenians that were defending themselves from the ethnic cleansings of your Turkish brothers or now are you telling us that Armenia was going to "invade" Azerbaijan? (laugh) However, the same can not be said of Turkey because it did "invade" Cyprus and has occupied Cyprus for almost 40 years. If indeed you want peace then by all means stop supporting the break way notions of Azeri’s in Iran as well. The land in Turkey and Azerbaijan is historically ours. Last time I read the bible it stated that the Ark landed on top of Ararat in Armenia not Turkey, so, do not come here and accuse us of occupying land.

Sorry, Tufan, but historically Armenians have no record of "invading", "conquering", and "pillaging". Turks on the other are well known for these things and in no way is it a "fabrication". What ever you have nowadays you did not earn it. ALL THE MONUMENTS AND TOURIST ATTRACTIONS IN TURKEY are anything but Turkish. They were created by Greeks and Armenians. Even your Ottoman architecture was designed by Armenians and Greeks.

One can even assume that the people themselves are anything but Turkish. I still have yet to see a Turk with Asiatic features and no my friend Turks were never blonde with blue eyes. I think even Ataturks daughter was Armenian taught to be Turkish, but again the Turks will not admit to these facts.

In short, Turkey and the Turkish identity is a fabrication and lie implemented by Ataturk to prolong a crumbling empire. If it is not Armenians that will get our lands back it will be the Kurds wanting a independent Kurdistan. I would rather see a Kurd living off our lands then a Turk.

In short, Armenians have never been aggressors and will never be aggressors. We are a peaceful group of people, but history does not write the same about Turks. So, stop trying to make it seem like everyone is an ASALA type Armenian out to get Turks because we are far from it. ASALA was created by the descendents of the Armenians that died during the Genocide. ASALA would have existed if Turkey did not do what it did. In way ASALA is the "backlash" of almost 100 years of denial.

Sorry, but I am not going to reply to you any more. This discussion was already over when your first post was a attempt to discredit the suffering of Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. I did not want to get involved but your comment on occupying lands was the last straw.

[Virgil]

And that is the reason why you militarily occupying their lands which is approved as Azerbaijan by the international community?

GET OUT OF CYPRUS THEN AND MAYBE THE ARMENIANS THAT DEFENDED THEIR LANDS WILL EVEN CONSIDER THE SINCERITY OF YOUR DEMANDS.

[Fadix2]

For your notice:
Armenia illegally occupies 16% of Azerbaijan against international law.

13% not 16% is occupied by Armenians, not Armenia. It is not the same thing... Armenia is supporting Karabagh army... beside that, you're a hypocrith, you have nothing to say about the fact that Turkey invaded over 1/3 of Cyprus... not Cyprus Turks army, but Turkeys army.

If there is anything condemnable about Armenias actions, Turkeys action would be even worster.

Oh and I forgot Turkeys illegal blockage of Armenia that could be considered in international laws as a declaration of war.

I think I will second Nairis proposition, get lost.

[Tufan]

Again the same group of people started to throw up their hate. Why do you always blame me to attack you and to support official turkish thesis? Read my first post again and try to understand what I write.

Lets make some points clear which you always use to throw up your racist hate upon us:
1. Stop crying like “there was an Armenian kingdom once upon a time, so Turkey doesn’t exist, it is our lands”. What is the problem with you I really do not understand. Yes, Turks invaded and settled to Anatolia at 1071. Like Slavs invaded and settled Balkans, like Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded and settled Britian, like Bulgarians, like Magyars. There may be an Armenian kingdom some thousand years ago but this doesn’t justify you to claim land from Turkey and to attack Azerbaijan. It is something like Celts claim Britian and insult English people like what you do. It is like what Israel do to Palestinians. They occupy lands of Palestinians with the same reason that those lands are historically Jewish. There was a big Turkish empire from Caspian sea to Korea once upon a time, can we claim whole Asia???

Hey stop make people enjoy with you, the place where I live is called as Turkey since 12th century according to European and Asian sources and I recommend you to understand this. So please don’t say stupid things like Turkey doesn’t exist, Turks doesn’t exist, etc.

2. About your point how Turks oppress you: It is totally a lie except the last 20 years of the Ottoman Empire when it was collapsing(1895-1918). Armenians and all other minorities have lived under a great tolerance at Ottoman Empire if you compare with Europe. What happened to Muslims and Jews at Spain? Is there any of them remained when Christians captured Spain. Forget the people, there even almost no monuments exist from them. Look at Alhamra palace and see what kind of civilisation they were. When Christians was torturing those people, Ottomans welcomed all those Jews to here and saved their lives. Please compare the situation of Jewish minority at Europe and Armenians at Ottoman Empire. Forget Jews compare, how Christians killed minorities of other Christian religious sects at Europe and the situation at Ottoman Empire.
There were Armenian ministers at Otoman governments at 19th century, almost half of the Otoman parliement was Christian. Please tell me how many Slavs was there at Austrian Empire at that time? Or was there even a parliement at Russia at 19th century?
No one can say that Ottomans was a real democratic society but they were almost the one that close to it at that time comparing to Europe. Of course Muslims had a superiority against Christians at middle ages but you can not compare history with today’s notions. So stop lying as Turks oppressed us, raped us, stealed our babies,etc.
If you mean Jannisaries as stealing babies I recommend you to read some serious history books and learn. Those Christians were selected from smart childs from the poorest Christian villagers and most of their families were recruiting their childs to the Jannisary army (Yeniceri Ocagi) because with doing this they were guarantying that their childs will live at welfare at the most elite army and the ones who were more intelligent were being the highest statesmen at the empire as Sadrazams.
So please stop saying stupid orientalistic imaginations and read some serious history books if you are so interested at Ottoman History.

3. About comparing Cyprus issue and your invasion to Azerbaijan, I do not support our official thesis like you, but both Turks and Greeks are the ones who blamed by UN, EU, etc.
But they only blame Armenia from the invasion. Think about why?

Now, if you have no more stupid claims, I want to quit this discussion.

[Sip]

Now, if you have no more stupid claims, I want to quit this discussion.

Wow ... ironically, just as you quit, the stupid claims stopped. You have no idea how rediculous you sound when mount Ararat is still within your borders.

[winoman]

1. Stop crying like “there was an Armenian kingdom once upon a time, so Turkey doesn’t exist, it is our lands”.

I've never heard anyone claim that Turkey does not exist.

What is the problem with you I really do not understand. Yes, Turks invaded and settled to Anatolia at 1071.

Which Turks? (ie not so simple as just this...)...invaded yes....settlements? some...but really were talking 13th-14th century and the Ottomans as Seljuks never became the majority and really only arrived and impacted a bit (not all that special/unusual) - did not transform....this occured with the Ottomans.

Like Slavs invaded and settled Balkans, like Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded and settled Britian, like Bulgarians, like Magyars. There may be an Armenian kingdom some thousand years ago but this doesn’t justify you to claim land from Turkey and to attack Azerbaijan.

This does not compute..again I have not seen claims based on this per se...remember difference between kingdom/nation and nation/people. Your examples are all of people who assimilated - Armenians always maintained their ethnic and cultural identity - and yes - "nationhood" in the sense of a national (ethnic) community....until 1915 of course....and please consult an unbiased history book. Azerbaijan brutally attacked Artsahk (Nagorno-Karabagh) after it legitimatly (legally) became an independent state by means of referendum under the Soviet constitution then in effect. (and I'll discuss the concept of "lost wars" and "considerations for the agressors in such" in just a bit...)

It is something like Celts claim Britian and insult English people like what you do. It is like what Israel do to Palestinians. They occupy lands of Palestinians with the same reason that those lands are historically Jewish. There was a big Turkish empire from Caspian sea to Korea once upon a time, can we claim whole Asia???

somehow I think you would if you could...and please conside the difference between "Empire" and "homeland"...

Hey stop make people enjoy with you, the place where I live is called as Turkey since 12th century according to European and Asian sources and I recommend you to understand this. So please don’t say stupid things like Turkey doesn’t exist, Turks doesn’t exist, etc.

Again dind't say such..but does make me think of the arguments I have had from several Turks in the past who disasociate modern Turkey with the Ottoman Empire....are you not a Kemalist?

2. About your point how Turks oppress you: It is totally a lie except the last 20 years of the Ottoman Empire when it was collapsing(1895-1918). Armenians and all other minorities have lived under a great tolerance at Ottoman Empire if you compare with Europe.

Yes and there is no poverty in the West, Slaves in the Americas were privaledged and well taken care of by their masters, etc etc - any more myths you wish to foster? While Ottoman practice (beginning in the 14th century) of allowing ethnic/religious communities to exist and largely run their own affairs was enlightened (to all parties) for some time - it was not so idealic in all respects and it was part of a caste like system that by the 18th-19th century was outmoded, insufficient andled to increasing brutality adn rerpression on the part of the Ottoman/Turks to maintain...so no - not just 20 years. Massacre, pillaging, exctortion etc etc had become institutionalized...and the cracks began in the 17th century when the ottomans went from conquoering power to one just attempting to maintin the status quo - something that the political (and economic) heirarchy was not designed to do...

What happened to Muslims and Jews at Spain? Is there any of them remained when Christians captured Spain. Forget the people, there even almost no monuments exist from them. Look at Alhamra palace and see what kind of civilisation they were. When Christians was torturing those people, Ottomans welcomed all those Jews to here and saved their lives. Please compare the situation of Jewish minority at Europe and Armenians at Ottoman Empire. Forget Jews compare, how Christians killed minorities of other Christian religious sects at Europe and the situation at Ottoman Empire.
There were Armenian ministers at Otoman governments at 19th century, almost half of the Otoman parliement was Christian. Please tell me how many Slavs was there at Austrian Empire at that time? Or was there even a parliement at Russia at 19th century?

OK kudos to you....but only if you accept the bad history along with the good...

No one can say that Ottomans was a real democratic society but they were almost the one that close to it at that time comparing to Europe. Of course Muslims had a superiority against Christians at middle ages but you can not compare history with today’s notions. So stop lying as Turks oppressed us, raped us, stealed our babies,etc.
If you mean Jannisaries as stealing babies I recommend you to read some serious history books and learn. Those Christians were selected from smart childs from the poorest Christian villagers and most of their families were recruiting their childs to the Jannisary army (Yeniceri Ocagi) because with doing this they were guarantying that their childs will live at welfare at the most elite army and the ones who were more intelligent were being the highest statesmen at the empire as Sadrazams. So please stop saying stupid orientalistic imaginations and read some serious history books if you are so interested at Ottoman History.

...just like the favored slaves in the old South in the US - learned to read and write (maybe) etc - my they had it good...its still attempting to justify a barbaric practice - taking children away from their parents...while some may have considered this a means of social advancement - etc - most families - I imagine - would have just liked to have their sons back....

3. About comparing Cyprus issue and your invasion to Azerbaijan, I do not support our official thesis like you, but both Turks and Greeks are the ones who blamed by UN, EU, etc.

Cyprus issue is much to complex to discuss here & now....

But they only blame Armenia from the invasion. Think about why?

You are reading to many Azeri papers IMO....and agian - who invaded who?

Regarding lost wars and crying foul on the part of the aggressor...well Azerbaijan is to blame for the mess that they are in and the Armenians have no obligation to return anything. WHat they may choose to do - to give - for peace - is another matter - but no claims on the part of the Azaeris in this - regarding lost teritorty or what not - are in any way legitimate - sorry.

And I can see Turkey in WWI the same way. Sure Sevres was terrible for them - and yes it represented much greed on the part of the European States and was perhaps overly harsh....but - Ottoman Turkey was an aggressor state - that lost the war! Additionally, they proved that they could not be trusted to care for their own people (Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians - all butchered) - thus I argue the Turks had no right to greater Anatolia - through their folly they should have lost it - it was deserving that they lose it - this would have been justice. It was only through the brilliance of Ataturk - and much luck they they got out of their jam - escaped justice - but then look what they (he) did - they continued the genocidal campaign - against the Armenains of the caucuses and Cilicia and agianst the Greeks and Armenians in Smyrna and elsewhere...yes your boy Ataturk may not have perpetuated the Genocide...but he certainly completed it....and for all of these unrepentent crimes - yes - what right do the Turks have to occupy our homeland? Sure it is fact...but there was a blood price - a price that we paid and continue to pay...and yet you come here and show no remorse and no understanding...and you preach to us about hate...I would consider yourself to be very lucky to be in the postion you are in - that we are nto now actively seeking your blood...and if I were you I would try to be a bit more compasionate - and be ready to accept and understand a bit fisrt - where Armenains are comming from - what we have been through and still must live with - before you come here and demand from us....

[Armenian]

Armenians want revenge - not aplogies

Nagorno Karabagh was NEVER Turkic and will NEVER be Turkic.

All Armenians should stop the stupid talk regarding "wanting an apology" from Turks. After our exposure to the decadence and barbarism of Turkish "culture" (that which continues to this day), we Armenians should care less about Turkic apologies. All self-respecting Armenians want some form of revenge. And, one way or another, sooner or later, we shall get it. The barbaric and primitive Turkish state today is a subservient proxy to the evil geo-political ambitions of Tel Aviv and Washington and is manipulated as such to undermine the national ambitions of Greeks, Cypriots, Serbians, Macedonians, Arabs, Kurds, Iranians, Russians and Armenians. The Turkish state is an abomination and a blight within the region that needs to be cleansed sooner or later.

Why are you people here entertaining this Turk's shallow rhetoric? By conversing with unrepentant barbarians what do you people think you are going to accomplish, getting an "apology?" What good is a Turks apology with our historic lands in their filthy hands? What good is a Turks apology when the souls of our countless ancestors are crying for revenge? What can you do with a Turks apology even if you got it? Think about it. Can't we ever learn lessons from our own history?

[Virgil]

Armenian I see you got my PM. Good to see you here on these boards as well.

[Darorinag]

The barbaric and primitive Turkish state today is a subservient proxy to the evil geo-political ambitions of Tel Aviv and Washington and is manipulated as such to undermine the national ambitions of Greeks, Cypriots, Serbians, Macedonians, Arabs, Kurds, Iranians, Russians and Armenians.

Well said.

Do I even need to remind people (at least those who are defending Turkey) of the threesome in bed - Israel, Turkey, and USA? Oh yes, and how Israel DENIES (yes, DENIES) the Armenian genocide..? So much about ANY respect for "I$rael"

[Tres Bien]

Well said, Armenian!