acceptance of genocide or demand land and money?

[winoman]

ok first of all Armenia never will develop nuclear weapons and go around acting like were gonna use them. Thats some blatantly retarded xxxx. we are a righteous people and will only succed by doing the right thing.

TS - that is a nice thought - and I - like most Armenains - like to think that we are a "good" people - etc etc - but be careful - because some of the worst atrocities have been commited by people who felt that they were the righteous ones. In the end we all have to understand that we are human beings and none are without fault. Sure - as a culture I would say Armenians are much less likely to fall into great depravity as the Turks did in 1915...but one cannot say it is not possible. Look at Armenian, Shasha, Vigil and others who basically advocate commiting atrocities on innocents for some supposedly righteous ideal....

[Virgil]

TS - that is a nice thought - and I - like most Armenains - like to think that we are a "good" people - etc etc - but be careful - because some of the worst atrocities have been commited by people who felt that they were the righteous ones. In the end we all have to understand that we are human beings and none are without fault. Sure - as a culture I would say Armenians are much less likely to fall into great depravity as the Turks did in 1915...but one cannot say it is not possible. Look at Armenian, Shasha, Vigil and others who basically advocate commiting atrocities on innocents for some supposedly righteous ideal....

No, I never advocated "committing atrocities" and quiet distorting what I said. In fact, it is you who is "righteous" because personal I do not feel that being nationalistic is about being "righteous", rather, it is just about survival.

First of all, having nukes equates to having a voice on the world stage and if you think I am "blowing hot air out of my ass" why don't you go ask the U.S. government or Israel to get rid of the nukes they are stockpiling. If the threat of nuclear holocaust was not put into the hearts of men history as we know it would have been quite more brutal. The very idea of using this barbaric bomb has stopped conquerors like Hitler from ever emerging again.

Furthermore, the world (I.E. outside the U.S.) is not as "peachy" as you claim it to be. You, sitting in an air conditioned room, have no idea what the "world" is actually about. Sorry, but Americans are not surrounded by countries that have directly tried to destroy them, so, stop using this idea of "utopia" to push your argument forward because there is no such thing. If you want a "utopia" you need to horde all the resources in the world for yourself.

As long as there are limited resources there will always be a equally strong need to unite under one banner, so, the very idea of a egalitarian society that "hippies" like yourself keep on pushing for will always be a dream in order to make you feel "righteous" about the way you live. Personally, I understand that in order for me to live "comfortably" in the U.S. someone else has to "eat xxxx", which is why I have no problem with exploiting anyone for the needs of my people. This has nothing to being "righteous", but rather like I said, it is about survival.

In addition, I never stated that Armenians need to "commit atrocities" to get ahead, again, don't put words in my mouth. All I was implying was that Armenians and Armenia will always be under the thumb of foreign rulers to the point of extinction unless Armenians grow some balls and nationalistic spirit in order to claim what is rightfully theirs. I don't know about you, but the recent statements from a Azeri general claiming that within 25 years Armenia will be wiped off the face of the planet should send a signal to you pacifists that Armenians are headed for extinction. If it is not within 25 years, it will surly come by the end of this century because Turks, in general, are nationalistic, which is why they are profiting from your ancestral land, while you are sitting here and defending them.

In the end, Turks win because they have the will to take the steps Armenians like yourself are not willing to take and the will to make such decisions is what win wars. Just look at us, after 100 years we still have not convinced the world that a "genocide" has taken place, while Turks have taken our land, distorted our history, and to certain extent stolen our identity because Armenians like yourself do not have the will to "fight" or lay claim to what is rightfully yours. If Armenians like you were the ones make the decisions in the early 90’s then today we would indeed have been under the jurisdiction of Azerbaijan. I am sure there were hippies like yourself back then trying to convince Monte Melkonian that “war is futile" or "Turks outnumber us", but yet in the end it was the will of people like Monte that won the war not numbers, capital, or technology. The most powerful man in the world is the one who has the will to do what others won't, always, remember that.

In fact, if indeed nationalism equates to "committing atrocities" then why is it that the only contemporary countries (U.S., Germany, France, England, China, Turkey, Iran, Japan, Korea, and Israel) that are some what developed are the ones that have historically been nationalistic? Can you please explain to me like a two year how you deny the progressive qualities of nationalism when in fact it is the very same nationalistic ideology of manifest destiny that is supplying food on your table? How can you deem the actions of Turkey evil, while at the same time reaping the rewards of manifest destiny? You can not deem their actions evil because by doing so you become a hypocrite. The very same decisions made by Turkey are somewhat the same as what the U.S. did to the natives. There is no way you can convince me that nationalism is "bad" because it is nationalistic countries that have the most influential voice on the world stage. If it was not for Americans expanding west and thus, butchering the indigenous population, you, as Armenian-American would not be here today.

By the way, stop dragging me into arguments. Personally, I don’t care anymore what happens to Armenia or Armenians, they have their own freewill and if they desire to be weak, pathetic, and insignificant then they have my blessing. What is tragic is how your existence as an Armenian is due to the sacrifices made by your nationalistic ancestors. If they adopted the same ideology of being anti religion, race, and identity then you would be in some desert praying to Mecca five times a day, while Armenians would only be found in history books, peace.

[Virgil]

ok first of all Armenia never will develop nuclear weapons and go around acting like were gonna use them. Thats some blatantly retarded xxxx. we are a righteous people and will only succed by doing the right thing.

They already have the technology, which is why the EU, U.S., Israel, and Turkey wants Armenia to shut down their nuclear power plant. Once Armenia gets nukes, they will have total control over their destiny.

[Virgil]

we also militarily occupied karabakh after peace protests by the 90% armenian population started gettng attacked by missiles from the azeri govt. we took the whole place over in year. teach em to shoot at us

Yeah, that is fine and dandy, but what happens in 50 years when Armenians are outnumbered? Unless they have nukes, Armenian statehood, will always be threatened.

[Virgil]

Winowoman, don't ever bring me into arguments or threads. I am sick of Armenians and Armenian message boards. It only amounts to more stress and frustration, so, please do not bring me into threads. Armenians are going into decline and eventual extinction. When the majority of the population think like Winowoman, then, the only fate that will befall them is either extinction or slavery (being ruled by foriegn powers).

[anomaly]

Virgil,

Turks aren't your nemeses. Saying so is just preaching further hatred. It's funny how the prevailing opinion is like this.

Saying turkey is the enemy of armenians is like saying U.S. is the enemy of Black people. It's theoretically wrong. Armenians LIVE in Turkey as citizens. More than several hundred thousand.

Modern day Turkey a cultural melting pot. Turkey has no intention of even eradicating Armenia. The reason you ask??

Simple: Strategically, Armenia provides buffer for an emerging Russia (if it ever emerges again).

To prove my other point of being a melting pot, let me tell you that Abdullah Gul, the Secretary of State for Turkey, is actually of Armenian Heritage. He really is. He is from Kayseri, and I believe from the village of Develi, a village with a hefty Turkish Armenian population.

[Fadix2]

Virgil,

Turks aren't your nemeses. Saying so is just preaching further hatred. It's funny how the prevailing opinion is like this.

Saying turkey is the enemy of armenians is like saying U.S. is the enemy of Black people. It's theoretically wrong. Armenians LIVE in Turkey as citizens. More than several hundred thousand.

Modern day Turkey a cultural melting pot. Turkey has no intention of even eradicating Armenia. The reason you ask??

Simple: Strategically, Armenia provides buffer for an emerging Russia (if it ever emerges again).

To prove my other point of being a melting pot, let me tell you that Abdullah Gul, the Secretary of State for Turkey, is actually of Armenian Heritage. He really is. He is from Kayseri, and I believe from the village of Develi, a village with a hefty Turkish Armenian population.

Mr. Anglo-Saxon, even though English is my fourth language, I detect in your posts some substil English mistakes that are proper to those not having it as first language. Like misuses of words in the wrong place for instances. I do believe that you could have been a little more credible if you had claimed to be a Chienese or a French, at least your limited English skills could have passed more incognito.

Oh and there aren't hundreds of thousands of Armenians in Turkey, those propagandas are used in Turkish media sources. Thanks to the fact that Armenians IDs in Turkey are identified we can know that there are about 60,000 registered Armenians there, and the large very large majority(we can call all) live in Istanbul, and that if we compare that with the totality of Istanbuli population, it represent less than 0.01%. Before WWI, Armenian population in Istanbul amounted over 15% of its population. The next time you would use numbers of Armenians living in Turkey, check before if it really support your argument.

"To prove my other point of being a melting pot, let me tell you that Abdullah Gul, the Secretary of State for Turkey, is actually of Armenian Heritage. He really is. He is from Kayseri, and I believe from the village of Develi, a village with a hefty Turkish Armenian population."

I think you read too much of Turkish newspaper, I can as well claim that Santa is a Turk.

BTW: In English, peoples first letter starts with a capital, don't forget that please.

[shasa]

I personally don't like Armenians in Turkey since I met some of them last year and surprised how they don't care the genocide like us and how they can live together with Turks peacefully though turkish government are still continue oppressing them, destroying our (and their) churches,etc.

[Virgil]

Virgil,

Turks aren't your nemeses. Saying so is just preaching further hatred. It's funny how the prevailing opinion is like this.

Saying turkey is the enemy of armenians is like saying U.S. is the enemy of Black people. It's theoretically wrong. Armenians LIVE in Turkey as citizens. More than several hundred thousand.

Modern day Turkey a cultural melting pot. Turkey has no intention of even eradicating Armenia. The reason you ask??

Simple: Strategically, Armenia provides buffer for an emerging Russia (if it ever emerges again).

To prove my other point of being a melting pot, let me tell you that Abdullah Gul, the Secretary of State for Turkey, is actually of Armenian Heritage. He really is. He is from Kayseri, and I believe from the village of Develi, a village with a hefty Turkish Armenian population.

No, Turkey is our enemy and has been a bane in the modern republics back for the last ten years. It is just recently that Turkey is facing a international crisis because, frankly, no one likes to work with Turkey.

In fact, Turkey needs Armenian as much as Armenia needs Turkey. We can survive and have survived regardless of the fact that Turkey has closeds its borders. We are good at surviving, but just surviving is not enough. I can be a high school drop out and still "survive", but what motivates me to go to a university is beyond just the need to survive.

Turkey, as much as you hate to admit it, fears Armenia and Armenians because the only thing holding it together is the financial support of the U.S. and political influence of Israel. Slowly Turkey's geopolitical monopoly is in decline because, frankly, the Turkish republic has not socially, politically, and economically progressed ever since its creation.

Now, seeing as to how both of these allies are drastically changing there foriegn policy due to the recent tensions in Iraq, Turkey, within a few years will have no allies what so ever, which is why you see the Turkish deligation making trips to the Middle-East, the Southern Cacasus, and Europe. In short, Turkey is trying to "make friends" in order to survive because if it doesn't it will most likly implode. Disgruntled Kurds starving for a self-determination, will most likly try to rebel and once "Pandora's box" is opened it can never be closed.

Furthermore, Armenians have potential to create wonders, hell, just look at the acheivments of the Diaspora. They are outgunned, underfunded and have no trump card, but yet they are somewhat winning, but the fact of the matter is that 50% of Armenians live abroad and in the end it all comes down to numbers.

Anomoly, I will never ever trust a Turk because historically Turks have backstabbed, butchered, and made gains from the decline of their allies and friends. Economically, yes, Armenians can work with Turks because in the end we all worship the green dollar, but anything beyond "business" is out of the question. There is no mutual trust and, frankly, your word is not even worth the paper it is written on.

By the way, I just hope Armenians are not stupid enough to quickly jump in bed with Turks because as the old saying goes "once a xxxxx, always a xxxxx" and, Turkey, is the biggest xxxxx of them all even surpassing Israel, peace.

[OttomanTURK]

u armenians keep believin in wot u believe coz it ait gettin u nowhere..